ex racer struggling with canter? What could it be?

[mandwhy]

I am riding a horse for someone who has lost confidence after a bucking incident on the road. She wants to sell him and I have been on and off considering it.

He is 4, chunky 16.3 TB, never raced but done some training.

Current owner ONLY hacks on the road so walk and trot but only had him 6 weeks before I took over and has been about 2 months with me.

He struggled to canter at first and I thought he probably just needed building up muscle wise as he was pretty unfit, and also had not been asked to school since he did some retraining with woman who sold him. Apparently when current owner viewed he did canter but was lazy (he is pretty sedate).

Have been hacking, schooling in walk and trot, trot is more consistent now although headshakes a bit. When I ask for canter he bucks, if I try and push him through he will canter a bit and I reward but it always begins with bucking and is not very smooth at all, basically like he is lumbering along in a rocking horse fashion.

Have tried on a circle and got a few steps out of him and reward. I am not pushing him very hard atm just as much as I think is a good effort as we go on.

Today I thought we are not getting very far in the field and felt confident to try on an area of grass on a hack, so went to canter, bucking as usual, then we managed the best so far which was again this strange rocking horse feeling with head down, hard to describe! He was excited after which I expected hence going into a corner of a track after already schooling for half an hour!

Now I am obviously concerned this may be a physical problem (have been worried about this from the start with him and the bucking but he is 4 and can be nappy) and have discussed this possibility with owner but as she is selling she does not want to pay anyone I.e. saddler, physio...

What do you think it could be?

If physical what would you do? Would you pay out for professionals when its not your horse and could bring up a problem which means I can't buy him? If I do end up buying him and it can be fixed maybe I could knock costs of this off purchase price?

I think owner thinks I am being paranoid, maybe I am but any tips on this would be great even if it isn't physical!

Saddle seems ok since he has filled out (getting fat with lack of fast pace!) but if I bought would get saddle fitter and possibly different one anyway as not keen on it myself.

what if I paid for all this and she said thanks for all the free riding and care and sold him to someone else!

I am not out to slate the owner at all, would just like to know opinions.

I am having lessons but the only canter we've managed in those (her or me on him) has been literally a few steps with bucking, so haven't been able to get much feedback on it yet, hopefully I can get her to video if we can manage it for one side of field maybe! It does feel quite odd but would need to see it. He hoolies about the field just fine..

Sorry for essay!

 

[Tickles]

If you were to buy having had failed vetting/diagnosis relating to this then that would definitely be excluded from his insurance.

If you were to get vetting/diagnosis and then buy he'd have to be cheaper. Doesn't sound like a valuable horse at all though (not that he isn't lovely I'm sure... just unlikely to be expensive with age/breed/history) so that might make quite a small difference compared to the cost of any vet treatment required.

This all assumes though that
1) you'd buy him anyway
2) you'd insure (and be able to do so without any moral qualms/anything showing up in a vetting).

So, do you really want him? Have you the time/energy/funds/inclination to sort out potential physical issues (could be cheap/easy but could be expensive/unridable) or would you PTS? But then that is the same with any horse... small accident can break the fittest and if you /like/ this one...

 

[Mike007]

My experience of racehorses is that canter is their default pace. Yours does not want to and bucks I would be very wary. Looks like a "back issue". there are plenty of wonderfull horses out there looking for you to walk through the gate. Dont spend your time ,money and heartache on a looser.

 

[Elsbells]

He could just be weak and needs building up? Perhaps speed up the hacking and go from there if he improves.

 

[mandwhy]

Well we have had our ups and downs as with any young horse but overall I am really rather fond of him, sometimes I forget he isn't mine!

He is up for a low price anyway (he also cribs although that in itself doesn't bother me) so I do kind of have spare cash in my budget to get checks done, but at the same time don't want to throw money away on him. I am sure that if he passed a 5 star vetting (perhaps with some minor flags) and I was happy about his back being ok or knew the treatment required was within my budget then I would buy him (but am not going to end up paying more than I would have for a 'normal' horse).

I want to insure so if major exclusions came up I would have to turn my back I guess, but that would upset me not just because I wouldn't have him, but that his future would be uncertain then as owner would not keep him.

I do think maybe its better the devil you know. You are right anything can happen to any horse and at least I know as much as possible with this one.

I just wish I knew he 100% fit and sound! Obviously was going to pay for vetting anyway, I guess it may be worth trying a physio first, or I know people do Bute tests maybe I could ask the vet about that?

Although he is just another failed racer there are a lot of things that are quite special about him and he does have potential.

 

[mandwhy]

You are probably right there mike007! I just thought as it had been so very long since he'd had to pick up the pace maybe I should keep building him up and see how he goes as elsbells says, but I feel like we should be getting there now..

 

[Venevidivici]

Back or stifle bells would be ringing for me,sorry

 

[Venevidivici]

And (better case scenario) maybe saddle too (tho I know you would address that issue). I've known horses with back/hock/stifle issues all hoolie quite happily round the field...doing meaningful,controlled work with a few stone to carry is another kettle of fish altogether tho :-/ . Good luck, whatever happens.

 

[Mike007]

I am a great believer in that the right horse will find you, but every instinct is telling me that this is the wrong horse regardless of how nice a person he is. Sorry, but I think you need to see some other horses.

 

[fatpony]

Have you tried lunging him - with and without tack to see if saddle or weight of rider affect him. Also have you tried cantering in forward seat. Most racers aren't cantered in normal seat and find it easier with weight off their back.

 

[ladyt25]

Does he canter in his field ok or on the lunge/being free-schooled? If so then I would suggest it is the saddle/rider weight causing the issue. If you haven't tried lungeing or free schooling then have a go and see how he moves then. It may just be he finds it unbalancing with a rider on board. However, if he has been in race-training then I would have expected him to be fairly good at cantering although jockeys obviously are up out of their stirrups not sat on their back so maybe that is the issue.

To be honest without getting a professional (vet or physio) to take a look, you're not really going to know if it's a major physical issue or something that can be easily fixed.

 

[mcnaughty]

Serious alarm bells ringing for me too. Sorry to be very negative but after having to put a 6yo ex racer down due to kissing spines only a month ago I do tend to be a bit paranoid about these poor animals!

Just to give you an idea on how much I paid to get the diagnosis - call out, xrays, diagnosis = £280.

Best of luck.

 

[dominobrown]

Have you tried going into a forward seat when you first ask for the canter, i.e getting out of the saddle? He might be confused why you are sitting and asking for canter, so is resisting against you. He may also be struggling to canter at a more collected pace, and in a smaller area and keeps losing his balance.
If that fails look at physio.

 

[AMW]

Sounds like the exracer we had, after major investigations turned out it was a stifle problem.

 

[TicTac]

My experience of racehorses is that canter is their default pace. Yours does not want to and bucks I would be very wary. Looks like a "back issue". there are plenty of wonderfull horses out there looking for you to walk through the gate. Dont spend your time ,money and heartache on a looser.

Would have to agree with this. My mare would persistantly buck going into canter both on the lunge and under saddle and she was diagnosed with kissing spine. Either get him checked out or leave well alone.

 

[tafyx]

It has taken me over two years to get a decent canter out of my ex race horse. hope your prepared for a long road of ups and downs.

 

[Victoria25]

Id personally get him working on the lunge cantering (without tack first then with tack) ... before even thinking about getting on him.

 

[paulineh]

I would get his back checked out. Get the owner to go halves with you as it is in her interest as much as yours to know why he is bucking. Watching working free in the field Will tell you a lot.

Watch him working free , in the field or in the school. This will show you if it is having someone on his back or it is the saddle or something physical.

Do some stretches with him this will also show if he is stiff.

 

[AmyMay]

I agree it sounds physical.

Vet check.

 

[JVB]

From my own recent experience, I had an ex racer on trial, he'd failed the vetting (vet thought suspect back end weakness) but he was a lovely character and his faults were all questionable so I worked with him for a month. He was lovely, couldn't fault him really but there was this niggling doubt about his physical shape and whether he would end up being a money pit.

So, I viewed others, to give me a comparison, all similar price range and not much at that (less than £1k) so found much nicer horses that physically had no issues. The one I bought passed his vetting and is just as lovely as the one I had on trial so I made the right decision.

I would say if you want a cheap ex racer, look around at a few, be prepared to travel ( I went up to 2.5 hrs away) and you will find one, this one sounds like he just isn't worth it

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Have you lunged him? Can he canter round his field? If he cant I would be worried If he can then it could be that he doesnt understand? His back hurts? His saddle hurts? He is lazy and resisting?

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

just noticed someone else put the same as me! great minds think alike huh

 

[claracanter]

Have you considered bone spavins?

My 5 year old ex racer bucked in canter until this was diagnosed and treated.

 

[mandwhy]

You know what I have not tried in a forward seat. That makes total sense I will give that a go, although hope I don't end up being launched forwards if he bucks! Maybe I'll suggest that to instructor and she can give it a go first.

Yes I had thought of kissing spines being one of the worst case scenarios. He is insured by current owner but I suppose making a claim still costs money and will impact on any future horses she insures so I just don't know if she will.

Should also point out that owner was riding him quite happily (although not in canter) until he bucked her off (part of a spook somehow) and she was too nervous to ride him again, so if this is a change in behaviour although can't be sure with lack of cantering maybe it could be the saddle or something a bit more resolvable. He does buck and be silly sometimes if he doesn't want to do something especially if it is raining he can be a bit grumpy!

I actually was not looking for a thoroughbred at all let alone an ex racer! I have a budget of up to about £2500, wanted an ISH or some sort of allrounder but haven't found anything so far and got involved with this chap, he will be under a grand easily so I thought well, if he turns out good then I could spend the extra on more lessons and anything else. He is not built like a racer, is hugely friendly, quite dopey and a very good doer so I figured he wouldn't be that 'typical' but maybe I was wrong! He is more traffic proof than any horse I have known which is quite important to me as I hate road work but have to do it.

If I spent a bit of cash that would guarantee he would be as fine as any other horse then fine, but obviously there are no guarantees!

I guess if I get the vet out on free callout day, and pay whatever money I need to get him to say 'yes I think there is a problem with...' then perhaps the owner will be more prepared to accept what I am saying and take it from there. Although if vet says he's fine I will still not believe it!

 

[mandwhy]

Forgot to say I have tried lunging him, he knows how but it sends him absolutely mental! I think it makes him go into racehorse mode, he just ends up charging off in straight lines across the field at a gallop, I can stop him to a point but eventually have to let go and he slows up at his 'home' tree, eyes on stalks, veins popping out everywhere looking like he doesn't know what happened.

Have started walking him off on the lunge after riding so he finds it a bit less stressful/exciting which seems to be working so far. He can also start to get aggressive when pushed too much with lunging. The plan was to lunge to build up muscle before riding him much at all, and he would get a lot more exercise if he could do it well.

Galloping about the field he seems OK but does buck still. At first I put that down to youthful exuberance. His field is in two halves just less than an acre, I would probably need the whole field to see properly but it is sectioned off as he is putting on too much weight.

I'm sure someone will say he needs an experienced racehorse retrainer or something, but I am all he has currently and I am doing my best..

 

[kirstykate]

What about Ulcers? There is new research, that stomach/gut problems present them selves as back issues

 

[mandwhy]

Indeed I had thought of that too KirstyKate, gosh there are so many possibilities! He lives out 24/7 and no hard feed so I figured this was the best way for him to be if it were the case.

 

[Victoria25]

I seriously wouldn’t be riding this horse until he can keep all four feet on the ground on the lunge.
I’d get the vet in the first instance. If the current owner can’t stay on/wont canter I certainly wouldn’t be buying this horse. There are so many out there – I could help you look.

My lad raced for nearly 4 years – he was sold to me as ‘dangerous/unrideable’ but we bought him knowing he’d have to be retrained at a very slow pace. He’d had two very inexperienced owners after coming out of racing – both doing more harm than good

At the beginning he showed a lot of signs of ulcers and KS – he’d detest being brushed, put a saddle on him he’d get even angrier and god forbid you did up the girth he’d literally tear himself away from the wall and gallop off playing broncho!!!

BUT a year on … he sleeps whilst you brush him, isn’t that fussed about the saddle (OK sometime we get a grumpy face) … but all in all he’s happy hacking out on his own and we’re now schooling in the ménage … and boy does he love to jump (on the lunge) turns into another horse.

 

[Wagtail]

I would steer well clear. It sounds as though he has a back problem or sacro illiac problem to me. My own horse had difficulty cantering and his canter was like you describe. He was found to have kissing spines. It is not something I would want to have to tackle again.

 

[mandwhy]

Oh no majority opinions are not looking good really are they :-(

Victoria25 or anyone else if you fancy picking me some nice prospects it might cheer me up! Was looking for AGES and viewed about 4 or 5. Have had a half hearted look at horsemart. Bah.

The current owner just doesn't canter full stop, she is very nervous after an accident long ago and just doesn't do bridleways, grass or countryside anymore and only feels confident on the roads (literally the opposite of me!), probably the ideal light hacking home a lot of horses with problems might go to, it's just the occasional twinge that might make them buck etc and panic her :-( I can sit them OK in general so I am not frightened but concerned about the horse.

He is nice to handle in the majority of other respects, it is a weird contrast on the lunge to how he is under saddle! I think he just gets really excited so will keep doing it after riding until he calms down, bit topsy turvy that!

The original plan was just for me to ride him while I look for a horse to keep him in work so he can be sold. It has been a good learning experience if nothing else. I just don't want think what will happen if he can't be sold!