Exo Body Cage & eventing safety - more ideas

[daisycrazy]

I've just been shown some motorbike body armour on various websites. It is designed to provide serious protection whilst also allowing full movement, so I imagine could be adapted pretty readily for riding purposes. Combined with the roll cage technology of the Exo, there is definitely the possibility of having very effective protection in the case of even the most horrendous fall. They also have systems for neck protection whilst still allowing movement. They all look very much like motorbike gear, of course, but I'm sure manufacturers could make it look more "equestrian" if necessary.

Knox have an area of their website which says horse riding (coming soon)... Perhaps BE could approach them?

Some links:

http://www.dainese.com/eng/coll_mot.asp (select Worlds "Motorbike", Categories "Safety" and Materials "All", then click Search).

http://www.planet-knox.com/product.htm

http://alpinestarsinc.com/safety

http://www.alpinestars.com/pl/c/170.html

http://www.hein-gericke.co.uk/shop/index.php/cPath/1_20_21

http://www.forcefieldbodyarmour.co.uk/product_selector.asp

The suit being used by alpine stars (described on their safety link above) could be used equally well in eventing and would provide a great deal of invaluable information to develop body protection systems going forward.

I've put these links up for people to have a look for themselves, rather than start another debate, but I presume that most riders would be pleased if body protection could be made significantly better whilst not restricting movement, etc.?

I imagine it will be more difficult to persuade the companies making this body armour to develop it for the equestrian market as well, however, due to the dismal take up of the Exo.

ETA http://www.britisheventing.com/page.asp?section=00010001000200220004&sectionTitle=Safety+Moves

http://www.extremekites.co.uk/main.php?direc=body_armour&content=index

http://www.outdoorgb.com/p/661_pressure_suit_youth_body_armour/

 

[Baileyhoss]

I was thinking about this after the long post last week where the body cage chap came on. I think that part of the problem lies in the limits on the patent, i.e., only licensing to woof wear. Now, if you ask on here for recommendations on bp's, how often does ww come up? never, most people go for RP, racesafe, airowear etc. So, would it not make sense to allow other co's to purchase production rights on the patent, which will enable them to incorporate the exo technology into their own styles of bp's, thus increasing the competition and encouraging manufacturers to develop the designs further and give us choice and perhaps a more competatively priced product. Thinking along the lines of 'gortex' here - a technology, which is incorporated into loads and loads of products by loads of companies, why can't bodycage do something like that?

And daisy crazy, you are spot on with what you are saying about other sports. My best friends hubby does motocross and his body armour is way more flexible and lightweight, yet offers much superior protection to riders safety gear. Some of that technology definetely should be looked at by horsy manufacturers and should qualify for beta approval. Mountain horse tried to do it with a jacket, but is was like wearing a cagoule laden with polystylene bricks!

 

[kerilli]

thanks for those, very interesting!

i cannot seen why a HANS-style neck-support (HANS is the one F1 guys use) cannot be designed for riders, fitted to the back of an Exo to prevent hyperextension of the neck. Why would a rider ever need to hyperextend the neck anyway? Even when hailing a taxi down a huge drop the head should not be back beyond the angle of the torso (if it is, all you can see is sky anyway). Look at pictures of those with extreme defensive seats, such as Mary King, Matt Ryan, Lucinda Green - their torso may be behind the vertical but their head and neck is never behind that as far as i can recall, quite the opposite in fact.
i think it's another of those things we'd just get used to... like crash skulls. they feel weird initially, but after a while you don't even notice them.

 

[daisycrazy]

There are a number of problems with giving away the license and I think these were set out in some detail in the other thread. Primarily:

1) Somebody has to pay for the R&D.
2) The manufacturing process is probably fairly specialised.
3) The cost of manufacturing will be fairly high, so that it probably makes no economic sense to have several manufacturers of the cage.
4) To incorporate the technology into their own equipment, BP manufacturers would have to understand and invest in it to enable them to do so without compromising safety.

(i.e. cost, cost and more cost, and safety)

I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility, however.

Perhaps dialogue between the eventing governing bodies (national and international), BodyCage/WoofWear, the equestrian body protector manufacturers, body protector/armour manufacturers in other sports and event riders (ERA?) should be entered into with a view to exploring the possibilities? Could hardly be a wasted exercise.

 

[Baileyhoss]

could the exo ever work without being incorporated into a ww bp? i.e., potentially, if it was marketed as a seperate produce - could the cage on it's own be fitted over my airowear bp?

 

[kerilli]

wow Baileyhoss, now that's what I call "thinking outside the box". i suppose people would think it was an extra layer of bulk having 1 on top of the other, but I think it's a great idea. maybe the number bibs could become a bit bigger to cope!

 

[Baileyhoss]

yep, coz, although some people may want to wear their bp showjumping or hacking, it would be unlikely you would be subject to a rotational fall doing that, and the BC would be expensive overkill, plus if the body cage was compulsory for xc at the moment, that would immediately put every other bp manufacturer out of business.

But when you are jumping anything solid above knee height, i.e., xc, then there is the risk and body cage's should be compulsory and you could fit them as an extra over your own bp.

I wonder how much bigger they would be? - perhaps they could incorporate the number?

 

[milz88]

I have to say I do think there is a large gap in the market which the exo has tried to fill but unfortunatley it has not been recognised by others, I would definitely back and be interested in new designs, it makes you think, the kind of gear mortorbikers wear doesn't compare to what we do when you look at them side by side/properly, esp at the top level where people risk being crushed by a heavy horse in motion.

My brother rides mx bikes, hes said to me before, why don't you have gear like me?.......you should see what he HAS to wear.

I'd definitely be interested in purchasing an exo, but im also interested to see how it can be developed further 1st..e.g carbon fibre to make it lighter as others have mentioned.

I really hope the interest in these body protectors does not die out, more should be done to try to support its development...goodyear? BE's new safety partner...

 

[iconique]

There is already a body protector which has been developed with Planet Knox - The Kan Body Protector. www.kanteq.com

Its actually really comfortable to wear, I have one and because it is moulded, the designer has managed to make it move with you when you breathe and prevent it from catching your saddle. Unfortunatley as with any new product, it is out there but most people are resistant to change and price is always an objection - we seem to budget on safety but not boots or coats!!!

 

[lucretia]

i must admit i did like the fit and feel of the kan body protector i tried it on at aston but it wont protect you ina crush type fall not significantly anyway.
i think that is what body cage is getting at when he says the type of falls are different, its not so much that they dont both hit the ground hard but bike riders generally hit tarmac and often skid into falls. I should think it is more often the head on sort of bike accident when the rider is tossed that are more like a horse riding fall and consequentlythe priorities in design are slightly different.
However those sites are interesting and i dont see why some sort of body armour couldnt be devised but then you would have to get the riders to wear it of course and that, without a rule change, is the trick!

 

[YorksG]

My sister has a KanTea BP and is very happy with it, but I do not think she is ever likely to be in a rotational fall. However it has reduced the amount of discomfort caused by more traditional BP's and therefore safer as she is more likely to wear it.

 

[embonaught]

Hans-style neck supports are really quite restrictive, tbh. A driver uses his mirrors to see what's going on behind him, they offer very little sideways movement so for that to work, no doubt you'd need to redesign helmets, etc. Again, cost is a factor.
That said, I'm all in favour of an exo-type body protector and am disappointed about their recent news. I'd like to think that if ever I was riding at a level where more serious impact/rotational fall is a factor, I'd spend whatever it takes to protect myself.

 

[daisycrazy]

With regard to motorbike safety gear and crush protection, I would like to make it clear that I do not think for one moment that motorbike gear would protect you from being crushed. I have wholeheartedly endorsed the Exo and believe it should be compulsory.

My point with the motorbike gear is that some of the materials, technology and design used is a considerable improvement on the standard Beta 3 body protectors. I don't know about anybody else but I seem to recall a few knocks, scrapes and bruises from falling off over the years.

Employing some combination of the Exo with ideas and technology from existing equestrian and other sports safety gear could result in greatly superior all round protection. There are other kinds of fall apart from rotational falls which would be less painful/damaging with better designed kit and other materials may also improve freedom of movement.

BodyCage has already said that the Exo is much bulkier due to the Beta 3 requirements. There may be alternative materials (of which motorbike wear is simply one source of ideas) which are less bulky and may fit better with the Exo design, yet it seems these would not be testable by Beta and therefore wouldn't be certified.

Beta won't develop a new test or a fourth level of protection because of conflicting commercial interests. The Beta standard is supposed to protect riders, not manufacturers. There is a clear conflict of interest here which must be overcome somehow to ensure optimum protection for riders against death and serious injury.

 

[bodycage]

Just to add a couple of thoughts here...
and this thread should probably be read alongside the main one on the Exo... for clarity!

daisycrazy and I have swapped some thoughts on motorbike technology in the other thread - in principle I am in agreement with the comments here, but am aware of the need to think it through carefully, but as a principle - absolutely.

Baileyhoss
I have replied to this one in the other thread - hope that is okay? However daisycrazy summarises the issues well below...

The simple fact is that our equestrian market is very very fragmented commercially - there is £4 - 5 billion spent in the market each year, yet retail is c. 80% independent companies, usually just a couple of people max. (figures prob. slightly out of date), this means that we have a lot of money floating around, but mainly in very small companies - a high percentage of the industry has turnover of only £80,000 - £100,000 per annum - this is a very unusual market. Even where companies are bigger, such as Derby House with its growing chain of stores (seven currently plus mail order / internet), and which has investment money behind it does not have a balance sheet suitable for investing 1/4 million or 1/2 million or a million pounds... The market doesn't have in it the Nike / Adidas type brands who have that sort of money.

The minute you start allowing several companies to produce it - the figures don't stack up - it is a high-tech product with unfortuanately high-tech prices!


regarding your second thought - could it work as a separate product:

Yes.

This was a very strong line of thought we had when we developed the product - and ideally we wanted to develop it in this way, however:
- No testing standard = no PPE certification = can't sell it as protective wear in the UK.
- No testing standard = consumers in shops assuming that it is 'less safe' than a Beta 3 protector (even though comparing different purposes) = no sales
- Difficulties in it working with body protectors from a number of manufacturers - when we talked to them, the general view is that they wanted the IPR exclusively to be bothered to develop a body protector to fit specifically with the EXO (well we could only then licence to one company), there are huge difficulties in producing a product which works with body protectors currently on the market, and historic ones riders already own.
- Many riders have their body protectors custom made - how could a product be made to fit those - difficult.
- Liability, if there is an issue, who is responsible - the Exo manufacturer / The bodyprotector manufacturer / the rider for putting them on wrongly?

Simply summed up - if there hadn't been a block on safety standards (i.e. if Exo had not had to comply with Beta level 3) we would have produced a much simpler device, lighter, designed to be worn over a jacket etc. offering crush protection, and not offering bruising protection - it would have covered 90% of the value of a Beta 3 body protector, plus all the additional value of the Exo, but in a simpler and cheaper option - far easier to fit and use.

However, it was not possible - the reasoning simply being the safety standards.



Ultimately there are two considerations:
- dynamiting the safety standards block - i.e. acknowledging new safety standards as they arise... would allow a product to focus on the safety protection it offers
- investing to make lighter / more usable etc.

The two both need to happen.

Investment will come if the product sells - success breeds success, but to get it to sell, it is necessary initially to not have the negative rumours / misconceptions / inaccuracies being spread, it is necessary to have people share a passion for moving forward in safety terms, it is necessary for people to try it and see if it works / etc. / etc.

With any project like this, it needs pump-priming financially to make it happen - we did that and spent a lot of money, but there were just too many blocks - it is not for me to remove those blocks - ultimately I was in the industry because I believed in the need for additional safety, but also because I saw a commercial possibility, however with that having gone because of these blocks - I am not in a position to have any more money go chasing the ideal - it will now be down to someone else... hopefully that will happen.


regards

Alasdair Kirk
Managing Director
BodyCage

 

[SAB20383]

Have you felt the weight of this 'body armour'? I don't know how comfortable it would be to ride whilst wearing it, I suspect it wouldn't be. I agree that it is a safe and innovative way to offer a level of protection far and above the other 'usual' body protectors but surely it still has to be practical. I tried one on in a shop and to be honest, I felt very restricted and very, very heavy.

 

[bodycage]

SAB,

I will leave others to dicsuss this, but the general concensus is that it won't suit all body shapes / people, but most who have tried it find it fine in use.

regards

Alasdair Kirk
Managing Director
Bodycage

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you felt the weight of this 'body armour'? I don't know how comfortable it would be to ride whilst wearing it, I suspect it wouldn't be. I agree that it is a safe and innovative way to offer a level of protection far and above the other 'usual' body protectors but surely it still has to be practical. I tried one on in a shop and to be honest, I felt very restricted and very, very heavy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I have - I am five foot and weigh about 8.5 stone - petite sums it up as I buy kids XL BPs normally to get the fit. I also rock/ice climb and mountain bike - the exo is no heavier than the packs I climb/bike wearing, and they too feel heavy when I first put them on but once I am out on the trails/on the route I don't notice them at all. I think the same would be true of the body cage - feels odd stood in the saddlery but fine once you start riding, much like conventional BPs feel restrictive stood in the lorry but once you are off round the course then you don't notice it. I'm afraid a bit of discomfort has to be endured sometimes to make things safer, vis a vis people who don't wear helmets to generally school because (for example) they give them headaches - they still have to wear a skull to go XC and a safety approved hat to SJ, and rightly so.

 

[lucretia]

i am with SC. i already said in this debate when skull caps where made compulsory loads of people whinged because they were heavier and would "affect" their balance or what ever. i think if its compulsory you just get on with it and if the weight is such an issue perhaps we need have the minumum weight for eventing back in. after all welll within living memory spotted cat would have been asking her horse to carry about three stones of dead weight in lead everytime she went eventing.

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]
after all welll within living memory spotted cat would have been asking her horse to carry about three stones of dead weight in lead everytime she went eventing.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are times when I think this would have been very useful

Have told the horse to stop growing or he is being chopped off at the fetlocks - he seems to be heeding the warning thank goodness!

 

[saramorrow1]

hello all. I've one of the kan body protectors and its probably the best bp i've ever worn. Its using motorbike technology from Knox. its comfy so I'll definitely wear it more. don't think there is anything that will prevent crushing but figure I may as well get the best that's there and minimise the risk.

also it looks really smart over my jacket. Check them out - think there's a website so google kanteq. Not sure what I ever did without either google or my kan bp!!!

take care