Experiences: clicker training manners in a food aggressive horse

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Morgan123

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Hello all

I'm interested in people's experiences of clicker training food aggressive horses - i.e. people who have used clicker training to teach horses not to be food aggressive. I've heard that this is done usually by starting by teaching the horse to move away from you or turn its head away, but am interested to hear how people started; did you throw the treat on the ground or feed via moving down between the nostrils as taught by AK etc etc.

The horse in question is a dominant, cheeky pony who was probably overhandled as a youngster I think; he is my friend's and we were chatting about him today. He is very food-motivated and food-obsessed, and very laid back/lazy so this isn't really an anxiety problem (though clearly it must come from SOME sort of anxiety, but you get what I'm saying - he's not fearful, it's more that he is disrespectful and lacks boundaries, so those sorts of anxieties rather than anything else). There aren't underlying veterinary issues, he is just cheeky when hungry. Nothing else has worked (e.g. telling him off, moving him back, groundwork, etc).

Just interested to hear people's thoughts - but would rather not have a debate about the pros and cons of clicker training in general please! Thanks in advance.

(ETA: he is just nippy/bites very frequently - he doesn't really kick or isn't dangerous around his actual food like some horses can be)
 
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when you say nipping reguarly- is this only when food is around? does he seem to nip for no reason?

my friend had a bargy, greedy horse, who would kick his door like mad around feed time and pull her over to grass ect.
she did a bit of clicker training ( as she has done it before with her dogs!) and he would get a treat after a click, when he had moved his head away from her. as he would always try and nuzzle and push her checking pockets for feed. he was smart and picked it up fast, but he only focused during the clicker sessions, and during normal times still kicked the door to bits!

my boy guards his dinner with his foot raised and ears back, but he know he has to step back and let me put it down first and he is used to me doing rug changes while eating, but will threaten to bite anyone else if they get near
 
pippixox said:
when you say nipping reguarly- is this only when food is around? does he seem to nip for no reason?

my friend had a bargy, greedy horse, who would kick his door like mad around feed time and pull her over to grass ect.
she did a bit of clicker training ( as she has done it before with her dogs!) and he would get a treat after a click, when he had moved his head away from her. as he would always try and nuzzle and push her checking pockets for feed. he was smart and picked it up fast, but he only focused during the clicker sessions, and during normal times still kicked the door to bits!
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Ha - only having manners during clicker sessions is an interesting one!! Now that is clever. Interesting, thank you!!

Mmm he does nip all the time really, but is far worse when hungry (e.g. in winter) - he is very dramatic about it when he thinks there isn't enough food around. But yeah, it can be anytime, e.g. when grooming and so on - not only when you're giving him dinner.
 
personally I wouldn't go down the clicker route if he's hungry ... if you read up on the advice clicker trainers give they say that the horse shouldn't be hungry before you train. Weird stuff happens when you mess around with horses who are hungry and try to use food to train (geldings dropping their di*ks and getting over-aroused etc). I would try to make sure he has access to more forage - soaked hay or even straw if needs be so that he feels fuller and isn't so desperate around his food. If, for eg, he crowds the door when you are trying to get in with food I would teach him to back up (just normal pressure and release) and then make sure he can do it at the door while you are getting the food bucket/haynet/whatever in.
 
I only have a very basic knowledge of ct but I'm guessing you would begin by teaching him that click means 'good' (so condition the clicker using a target, when he touches the target you click and he gets a treat). Then start work with a barrier between the two of you (ie stable door), click every time he begins to move away/turn his head away. Then slowly introduce feed (or even just an empty feed bucket at first) and reward the same moving away behaviour?
It's a slightly different thing but Melanie Watson on Youtube has some good videos showing the stages of working with stable-aggressive horses. Might be worth checking out
 
I had a HW cob who had been starved as a youngster and despite being a good weight with me remained very excitable and bargy around food.

I taught him like I would a dog. I put him in the stable and stood outside. I put a treat in my hand and made a fist, I put my fist right under his nose and waited until there was daylight between his nose and my fist, clicked and treated. He got it really quickly and within days his reaction to the feed bucket changed completely, he would see it and step back away from it.

If the pony is likely to bite you what you do this make box that can open from a distance and substitute that for your fist until he starts getting the idea that licking/pushing/bumping/biting means no food, moving away gets you the food.
 
Interesting thanks all!
Should have explained he is not actually hungry as such - just worse in winter. There's good grass at his yard and he gets as much forage as poss (tho he is a chunky native fjord pony so there are times when he is going to have to be hungrier when he is on a diet!).

When you initially fed treats during training, how did you do it? Did you throw them on the ground, or were you careful to do the 'down the nostrils' technique or what??

Thank you, much appreciated.
 
When I did a bit of ct with my mare I gave her the treat from my hand though she never was a biter she did learn very quickly to wait, in the end I gave up with the clicker and just used the treat, in her case it was only 1-2 small pony nuts so it didn't have a big effect on her rather large waistline.
 
Haven't used clicker but my friend does Parelli (so not my thing) with her cob and to ensure consistency I use Parelli techniques to handle his greed and lack of manners round food which I have to admit does work. Essential it involves preventing him eating by waving a finger under his nose and not letting his head down into the bowl until I have taken a clear step back. He now no longer requires the finger waving and will wait until you step back to eat.
 
pansymouse said:
Haven't used clicker but my friend does Parelli (so not my thing) with her cob and to ensure consistency I use Parelli techniques to handle his greed and lack of manners round food which I have to admit does work. Essential it involves preventing him eating by waving a finger under his nose and not letting his head down into the bowl until I have taken a clear step back. He now no longer requires the finger waving and will wait until you step back to eat.
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I'd be worried about the extent to which measures could escalate if one had to deal with an aggressive and highly food-motivated individual in this way. I doubt finger waving alone would be sufficient for some horses. I wonder what Parelli says people need to do in such cases.
 
Parelli! that's a whole other story ;-)! Definitely won't be venturing into that one - nothing else pressure wise has worked with this horse (pressure and release, telling him off, groundwork etc) and he is very unmotivated generally; I don't think Parelli would be for him.

I know the 'rules' for keeping 'normal' horses from mugging when clicker training - having done it a lot with various horses (and my cat!) - but this horse, for example, is NEVER fed treats from the hand because he is so snatchy. his owner has done less clicker training before so I was interested in how people with horses like this manage clicker training in the initial phases. I have no doubt that the pony would catch on incredibly quickly and get very overexcited initially, so there isn't really room to get things wrong ;-).
 
If there's no room to get things wrong I suggest you speak to a pro clicker trainer and take their advice. Personally I would recommend Ben Hart.

There was a lady on facebook with a Fjord who loved clicker training and tried and tried with her horse, but had to give up in the end because it was making him so aggressive. He was food obsessed.

edit to add - you need to get the emotions right from the start, not just focus on the behaviour. getting the emotions right is the hard bit with a horse like this. you will probably get him to turn away/step back etc, but there will be a lot of tension and over-arousal. http://www.apbc.org.uk/blog/clicker_training_horse_equine
 
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Agreed! :-) Very sensible advice. Still interested to hear what others have done, though, and their experiences.

That's interesting about the Fjord. I wonder what BH/AK would have said about a case like that and whether this is driver error or what! I will look it up. Interesting, thank you.
 
the facebook page is Life With Oden. Try messaging her. I think she had clicker trained her previous horse successfully - not saying it wasn't 'driver error' ... but it's just that for some horses it is really hard to get it right, and the consequences of getting it wrong aren't pleasant. The trouble is that the food is too motivating, one of my friends is an equine behaviourist and she is very careful about which horses she will use clicker with and which she won't. A lot is about the individual horse/owner/environment. Ben's approach is to teach patience right from the start and he does a variable schedule of clicking, which seems a bit wierd but seems to work. I looked into clicker training a lot with my last horse, and I tried it, but it didn't seem to suit him. He was a cob and I had to watch his weight and the food was just too valuable to him to be used as a training tool. I know that sounds contradictory, because you want motivation, but there was just too much tension and frustration in there. He would do the behaviours but he was tense the whole time, focussing on the food. He did better with scratches and rest and release of pressure. Could your friend not do something like put the food in the stable before she brings the horse in and then just let him get on with it?
 
Just to be clear I don't follow or rate Parelli however I think it's important to follow the regime that the owner uses and the horse understands if it is working. For my own horses I would remove the food if their behaviour towards me was unacceptable; doing so repeatedly and consistently soon teaches greedy horses to be nice or go hungry.
 
alliwantforchristmas - thank you, that's really interesting. I do agree, and can totally see how it can work both ways when they are v food motivated. My own welshie LOVES clicker training, he is like a different horse when he sees that's what we're doing. However, I didn't do enough homework when I started it with him and there are various things that I would definitely do differently (being clear when sessions are starting/finishing, being more careful about how to give treats etc) given how food motivated he is which can lead to unwanted behaviours from him and frustration for both of us; I am a lot more careful now! I can definitely see what you mean and can easily imagine the scenario - in fact this fjord you describe sounds exactly like my friend's. Perhaps it is not the right approach for him - at least not without consistent professional guidance. It's really good to hear others' experiences for that reason. This forum is so helpful :-). thank you!

Pansymouse - sorry didn't mean to imply that, and I agree/understand what you're saying about being consistent between handlers! Makes sense.

Thanks for your help all :-)
 
I trained my food agressive cob to step back and turn his head away before feeding (of any kind) and it made a huge difference to his behaviour generally. He even steps back calmly when the strip fencing is being moved, when previously he would be trying to barge his way through. I didn't use a clicker for it though, just consistency whether it was bucket feed, treats or a haynet - he didn't get it till he stepped back and turned his head away. Any treats are then dropped onto the ground and I step back to indicate he is allowed to come and take it, I never hand feed. Funnily enough my daughters pony now does this when being bucket fed in the field even though I made no attempt to train him to it, obviously been watching the cob and decided this is how you get your dinner quicker.

I did try clicker training with him when I was pregnant, for a different behaviour, but had to stop as he got totally over-excited and silly. It may well be that my timing was off or something but I decided very quickly that it wasn't for us. He didn't actually get aggressive, just totally over-excited in every way and bouncing about like tigger.
 
My Dales youngster has never been aggressive but he is pushy and bargy so I used clicker training to make him be polite in waiting for his treat at the end of training. I like to treat all my horses but I don't like them to be pushy or expectant.
My Dales is very clever and took about 3 mins to teach him to turn away for his treat. Ihas cue us 'what do you do Jonjo? ' and he turns his head away.
 
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