Exploitation of girl groom?

[Orangehorse]

I know a girl, well she is in her 20s and I don't know her well, but she works for a friend sometimes to dog walk. Her main job is at a yard where she is expected to be there from 7.30 am to 10.00 and then in the afternoon from 3.30 to 6.30. I am not 100% about the hours but basically she has to be there in the morning and then again in the evenings. She has some dog walking jobs during the day sometimes but her first call is always the yard.

However, she is paid by the YO in cash and it was £10.00 per hour (it might have gone up). If she has a holiday, or the YO doesn't want her she doesn't get paid.

She can't afford her own car, she uses a family member's. She pays no NI and I daresay she pays no income tax. What are the hours for paying NI?

Is she a Freelance? If so, surely she should ask for more money. Working split shifts is a terrible job as its hard to get anything else.

She loves the horses and is great with them, and has got fond of them so doesn't want to leave, but I worry for her future.

Is this even legal?

 

[SantaVera]

She needs to pay NI to cover her pension. The whole thing sounds quite underhand,she should have a contract of employment and holiday pay. Why does she do this job? Why doesn't she find proper regulated employment?

 

[ihatework]

All sorts of wrong.

But she needs to start calling the shots.

She either goes through the books on at least NMW and has relevant employment rights

Or she is freelance, sets her own rates and does her own books/tax

 

[teapot]

She's being used and abused.

NI comes down to earnings each year, it's around £12k/£13k before you start paying, and if she's self employed she is also responsible for own tax, NI payments etc, no one else.

 

[Xmasha]

If you look at the classification of what constitutes freelance it’s not this . Freelance set their own hours / rate of pay .
With the details given, no this isn’t legal . The ‘employer’ is well and truly in the wrong

 

[humblepie]

As above. That is not freelance/self employed, it is employee or at a push worker status so National Minimum Wage, holiday rights etc. They need to put it right or she should get advice on a claim or reporting to HMRC.

 

[Polos Mum]

Sadly she will need to decide whether to leave or put up with it.
If she makes a fuss the most likely outcome is that she is replaced with another keen person who also doesn't understand the implications of working off the books.

The employer is in the wrong, they aren't the first or last and will have a steady stream of people willing to put up with it.

If the employer claims they thought she was technically freelance then she might want to be sure of whether she's complied with tax rules herself before reporting to anyone.

Even if no tax or NIC is due I think she is responsible for filling in her own tax return to prove that is the case.

Hopefully she's got enough good experience that she can look for a more legitimate role on a yard that runs a proper payroll.

 

[Fransurrey]

Disagreeing with a couple of posters above in that she is essentially self employed. One can still contract to an employer on a regular basis and at fixed times, with the proviso that it isn't her only contract. My other half did this for many years for fixed hours. Her dog walking (and I daresay other activities) will mean she can operate on a sole trader status, but she should be filing a tax return. She can still do this being paid in cash - we do it all the time on my OH's books - it's on the 'employer' to declare their expenses, but that's not for her to worry about. It's doubtful she'd pay much if any tax if all her work is at £10 per hour, as she'd be offsetting expenses against the income. Sorry to say this will bite her on the arse big time when she gets to pensionable age, as she'll receive the minimum. Assuming of course HMRC don't catch up with her first.

This reads to me like she thinks she's got it ok not paying tax, so there's no incentive to change the status quo, but in doing it like this she can't command a living wage or build up pension status and that's not withstanding the fact she doesn't have any private pension to speak of.

 

[MidChristmasCrisis]

Essentially the young lady is self employed and can complete self assessment tax forms and get NI credits towards pension (class two?). She should complete her own books of incomings/outgoings and you can put work clothing and fuel mileage to set against potential tax. Minimum wage is between £11 and £12 I believe and she should really be asking for that…and claiming universal benefit too if working 16 hours or under in a zero contract situation. The reality is though there is a huge cash in hand work culture and some people like flying below the radar.

 

[dorsetladette]

Unfortunately far to many young people work within the horse world in this way. It makes it hard for anyone to earn a fair income from the industry.

But even at that low rate of pay she should be paying a small amount of tax and NI.

6.5hrs x 5 days a week = 32.5hrs x £10 = £325.00 x 48 (52-4 weeks potential 'holiday/unwanted time) = £15,600 - over the tax threshold of £12,630

So whether employed or self employed she should be paying tax and NI or at least be registered for it.

The going rate for freelancers in our area is £15-£20 an hour depending on jobs (riding is more) and distance they need to travel.

OP - the girl you know needs to work out a simple business plan that works for her, so she can afford her own car and can work other jobs around the current commitment. The YO/employer is probably only carrying on as she is because she has been able to, if the girl you know said she needed to change the routine around so all work was carried out on either morning or evening visit YO would make it work.

 

[paddy555]

There is no way of determining either employment or self employment based on the opening post. There is simply not enough information.

 

[IrishMilo]

The state of employment for grooms has and probably always will be shocking. I feel horrendously sorry for anyone who is stuck in the perpetual cycle of crap pay > crap employer > no money to make a change.

 

[Orangehorse]

Yes, well its what I think too, its very bad. I suppose she has been doing the job for a few years and that is how she started and how it has continued and she loves the horses.

I don't know who is going to tell her.

 

[SantaVera]

Yes, well its what I think too, its very bad. I suppose she has been doing the job for a few years and that is how she started and how it has continued and she loves the horses.

I don't know who is going to tell her.

Therein lies the problem. People get attached to the horses and employers use it as emotional blackmail.

 

[Belmont]

Is this Worcestershire by any chance?? Although I know it's all too common unfortunately.
I was that girl when I was 18-22. Similar hours, cash in hand, did it for the love of horses and didn't know any better. Thankfully someone advised and I found a better employer.

 

[Ruftys mum]

Is this Worcestershire by any chance?? Although I know it's all too common unfortunately.
I was that girl when I was 18-22. Similar hours, cash in hand, did it for the love of horses and didn't know any better. Thankfully someone advised and I found a better employer.

It would be a good idea to contact ACAS who are free employment experts They will give their opinion re employment status

 

[blitznbobs]

If she doesn’t like it she shouldn’t work there … it’s that simple.

 

[PeterNatt]

She should take advice from the British Grooms Association. www.britishgrooms.org.uk who will be only too pleased to assist her.

 

[blitznbobs]

Yes, well its what I think too, its very bad. I suppose she has been doing the job for a few years and that is how she started and how it has continued and she loves the horses.

I don't know who is going to tell her.

Is she unhappy with the situation? You say her pay may have gone up… and you don’t know what hours she works and she may well be not telling the tax man what she earns so probably if it gets pushed she might even end up worse off…

 

[gallopingby]

OH just wondering what you’re getting at! Are you trying to help someone or raising a point about employment law? You say you know someone, but not that well, you have a little knowledge about their work but not a lot and it’s very unclear what you seek to gain.

 

[Fieldlife]

She is committing tax fraud by not declaring and paying tax on her income.

Also by not making NI contributions she is not gaining pensionable years for the future.

If she is over 23, her employer is breaking the law by not paying her minimum wage which is currently £10.42 an hour.

 

[paddy555]

OH just wondering what you’re getting at! Are you trying to help someone or raising a point about employment law? You say you know someone, but not that well, you have a little knowledge about their work but not a lot and it’s very unclear what you seek to gain.

this.

She is committing tax fraud by not declaring and paying tax on her income.

Also by not making NI contributions she is not gaining pensionable years for the future.

If she is over 23, her employer is breaking the law by not paying her minimum wage which is currently £10.42 an hour.

in your first line she is self employed, in your final line she is employed. Which is it?

we have no idea of her employment status. There is insufficient info. to determine this. She may not have committed any fraud, she may have been sending in her return with her self employed earnings and paying tax.

We don't know she is paid under NMW because OP doesn't even know her hourly rate. It was £10, it might have gone up.

how is the dog walker friend treating her apparent employment, are they treating her as an employee, obtaining a code number, deducting tax? how is the dog walking business dealing with her through their own records? are they failing to deduct PAYE? are they treating her as self employed, what are they basing this on?

 

[SilverLinings]

She is committing tax fraud by not declaring and paying tax on her income.

Also by not making NI contributions she is not gaining pensionable years for the future.

If she is over 23, her employer is breaking the law by not paying her minimum wage which is currently £10.42 an hour.

If she is over 21 then the NMW has been £11.44/hour since 1st April.

As said by @Fieldlife it is extremely important that NI is being paid as it is her pension contribution as well as entitling her to certain enhanced benefits in the future if she is unemployed.

If the girl is having to work relatively set hours and isn't given the choice to decline them if she is busy/wants to work elsewhere that day then her employer would have a very difficult time claiming she was self employed and that they aren't liable for tax, NI, annual leave and sick leave. If the girl does have flexibility, provides her own tools/equipment, training and insurance and can be deemed to be self employed then she needs to be paying taxes or she is breaking the law. She should also be asking for at least the minimum wage for her own benefit.

Unfortunately there still seems to be a lot of employers who think that claiming someone they pay is 'self employed' is enough to make it so, and therefore dodge tax responsibilities and the extra costs of annual/sick/maternity leave etc. It is extremely unlikely that someone who is required to work the same core hours each day and carry out the same tasks using the 'employers' equipment is technically self employed.

I understand how the young person may have been caught unawares by employment law, but it irritates me that some older 'employers' think they can be clever and screw over their workers and HMRC by just pretending that the people they pay are self employed, it is morally wrong.

 

[Kaylum]

It's all OK until something goes wrong and neither have insurance or a contract. Both at fault here I am afraid. Hopefully you can give her some guidance.

 

[Fieldlife]

Sorry not sure why I thought we were still in March!

 

[Fieldlife]

this.


in your first line she is self employed, in your final line she is employed. Which is it?

we have no idea of her employment status. There is insufficient info. to determine this. She may not have committed any fraud, she may have been sending in her return with her self employed earnings and paying tax.

We don't know she is paid under NMW because OP doesn't even know her hourly rate. It was £10, it might have gone up.

how is the dog walker friend treating her apparent employment, are they treating her as an employee, obtaining a code number, deducting tax? how is the dog walking business dealing with her through their own records? are they failing to deduct PAYE? are they treating her as self employed, what are they basing this on?

Doesn’t NMW also apply to self employed people?

 

[Goldenstar]

She may well be self employed her work pattern suggests that .
But you don’t seem to know her hourly rate you sorta think it’s £10 an hour well non of my freelancers would work for that amount it’s not enough, the rate is always higher per hour than a full timer btw.
Spilt time is not that unusual if she’s a freelancer and they work at other things over the day .
Paying cash, many freelancers suffer from slow and bad payers the amounts change every week as the hours they work are flexible , if they get handed cash they know where they are some people are completely unscrupulous with workers like this and keep them strung along so they are owed wages .
My last two freelancers preferred cash and my current prefers a transfer she sends me an account on Thursday and I pay it on Friday .

Freelancers do this type of work for many reasons I had all sorts students from to retired people it’s a lifestyle choice that suits people for part of their lives .

Doesn’t NMW also apply to self employed people?

No it does not .

 

[SantaVera]

MLW doesnt apply to self employed but it will impact on their benefit claim if they make one, recently some farmers have been told by the DWP that their businesses are just hobbies and they will have their universal credit stopped or reduced as they arnt paying themeselves MLW per hour worked therefore they are just hobbying.

 

[ycbm]

Doesn’t NMW also apply to self employed people?

Apart from the fact that people are entitled to pay themselves whatever they will do the work for, It couldn't be policed. People would simply do 4 hours work and submit a bill for 2 hours for the paper trail. This is how they were (?) getting round minimum wage rules in the Leicester clothing manufacturing sweatshops a few years back. The staff were working a full day but only half a day was going through the books. It took investigators sitting outside the factory gates and comparing when people went in and left with the time records to prove what was going on.
.

 

[paddy555]

Doesn’t NMW also apply to self employed people?

This is from gov.uk

There is no definition of self-employment in the National Minimum Wage Act 1998. However, those who are genuinely and independently self-employed are not entitled to the National Minimum Wage as they cannot be classed as a worker within the meaning of the Act.16 Apr 2016