Explosive and dangerous and LONG!

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micramadam

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Oh dear! Where do I begin? :(

We are having a few problems with our new horse. 6 yo KWPN mare.
This is her breeding -
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/330947

We have had her just over 6 months now and we knew when we bought her that she would need further schooling as she regularly put in flying changes when cantering without being asked but she has confirmation, paces and movement to die for!
We viewed and tried her 3 times including hacking on local roads. She had a 5* vetting with blood tests and x-rays and passed that with flying colours and we also had her on 2 weeks trial. All good - no problems though we did find out she is very forward going and very sensitive to the aids. No artifical aids like spurs or a whip needed.

She was underweight with no muscle when we got her but that has improved no end. She has very little hard food only about 1/2 kg per day as she is a very good doer for a KWPN and she is normally worked for 1 hour a day 6 days a week. She is turned out at least 12 hours a day on restricted grazing. In at night with a small holed haynet which keeps her supplied with hayledge all night.

She has a very very sweet nature and is an absolute angel on the ground, to box, with the vet, the blacksmith, the dentist and to hack out. She is also extremely quick and eager to learn. Walk and trot are no problem but when it comes to asking for more contact and canter in the arena, she literally explodes. My daughter has lessons on her from an instructress who teaches using classical methods (harmonius dressage) and the improvement has been staggering. The schooling has been upped a level in the last month and the last couple of weeks B has started to rear when asked for more contact or for canter and she has nearly gone over backwards on a few occasions. My daughter is an experienced rider and has never been frightened to get on any horse but now refuses to ride her. B was bought to school on to top level dressage and is certainly capable of reaching this.

We are now going back down the saddle fit route (due Saturday) and the Osteopath is coming on Monday. If this is all clear then she is off to the instructress for a couple of weeks to see if she can get to the route of the problem. It seems as though the moment she is asked for canter or my daughter asks for more contact, B goes into panic mode. Once she is in canter, she does tend to settle down after a while. :confused:

if you've got this far, thanks for perservering. :D

I'm just trying to think of all possible causes for this behaviour and possible solutions. We started her on NAF Magic calmer about 10 days ago but it hasn't kicked in yet? She never seems to mouth the bit when being ridden so I have been thinking should we try another bit? She is snaffle mouthed with a mouth like butter which we want to keep and I do not want to change to a stronger bit as that is not sorting the problem and I think would make her even worse.
Perhaps bitless is the way forward with her. Just trying to think of things that may help.
I am also thinking about having x-rays made of her back but will wait to see what the osteopath says.
We're starting to wonder if she has suffered some sort of trauma in the past which makes her panic when asked for contact or canter. She will canter on a hack with no fuss whatsoever and is perfectly controlable, even when on the beach with others. Walking and trotting in an arena are no problem but canter......:eek:

If you've got this far you deserve a gold medal for endurance. :p

Has anyone experienced anything similar? Are we overlooking something simple and it is just a matter of can't see the wood for the trees? We are determined to try and get this sorted as then we will have one fantastic horse.
 
You say she rears when asked to canter in the school - in order to do this she presumably comes to a halt first? (Or am I being thick - I don't see how a horse moving forward can rear) Could it be a form of napping, as you say she is fine out hacking? Also how are her teeth - I am sure though you have had these checked. How is she on the lunge in the school?
 
I think youngsters can perceive canter as time to go Whoopie! and tank off til they learn otherwise. I do not have a warmblood dressage horse but a friend with one had similar problems. She worked with a very talented dressage instructor and overcame them and now is working towards intermediate on a fab horse, but it took time.
I suggest schooling, and if not by this instructor, then find another one you like. I suspect this can be overcome. There may be a physical issue, but maybe not and warmbloods are slow to mature. Good luck!
 
Have you had an equine dentist take a look at her teeth? My ex racer had a small piece of a wolf tooth causing problems when he was 6, he played up no end and wouldn't take a true contact and exploded on occasion. It was removed, we rebitted with a forward curved snaffle and he was a different chap.
 
I have a KWPN who is now 9 and at last showing physical and mental maturity. I was lucky enough to back him myself,so any problems(there have been a few!) were down to my error,his discomfort etc. i.e. I know the history.
Your mare's issues could be any number of problems,from kissing spines to dental issues to a bad experience in canter before you had her or even simply being asked to do something in a way she does not understand.

Does she accept the contact and collect in walk and trot?
If asked for a moment of collection in canter out hacking does she react the same?
 
Sorry to hear your mare is having problems. You say you have had her six months but her rearing/exploding problem has started now you have increased the difficulty of her work. Was she cantering in the school before with no problems? Has she accepted a contact before? I would be very, very surprised if she had not been ridden on a proper contact before as a six year old, particularly if you bought her in Holland. By increasing difficulty what sort of level is she at and what are you now doing? You could take her back down a level to what she is comfortable with and see if the problem disappears.

I did have a mare that was fine at lower level work (up to about medium) but reared whenever the work got hard. She had done too much too soon and never got over it. I am not sure if that may be the case with your mare. I had another gelding from Holland that was the same. Not rearing just napped. Fine lower level RC work but not for anything more. Some days would be fine, others not. Both of my horses had competed at M level/medium by 6 and had just been pushed too hard. If you don't know her history and with the talent to do upper level work its possible someone has had this problem in the past.
 
Maybe you should try a different bit? The snaffle might be poking her in the palate if single joint?
Lungeing with sidereins and then just in a lunge cavesson might tell you how she canters without a bit to be aggravated by? Or does she not do this at all on the lunge?

As samuelissimo says she might just be thinking whoopie canter time! Especially as she does not do it on hacks!
 
Sometimes, and with any animal, when we reach "The wall", when we struggle to understand, and when we have a potential breakdown in trust or in agreement, then the answer is to find (in your case a pro rider, and importantly, one who you know, and have confidence in) and have them take your mare on, with you requesting an assessment.

I don't buy riding horses, but I've bought the odd dog or two, and when I do so, I always look to see why the vendor is parting with it. It may be that the vendor is an idiot, and I may see something in the dog which I like, and I can work with. The vendor may also be highly experienced and know more than I do. I would avoid such a person, and their sales. It's the same with horses. I always ask the question "Why are you for sale?", and asking the question has saved me from some costly blunders. ;)

I'm probably of little help, but in your shoes, I'd seek out a qualified opinion, from someone who I respected.

Good luck!

Alec.
 
Ok, I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.

Teeth - dentist out twice in last 6 months, 2 weeks after we first got her and again on 24th July. Teeth floated both times. No other problems apparent.

Bit - She is currently ridden in a double jointed french link copper snaffle.

On the lunge - she works great, no tantrums at all even with pessoa and side reins.

When I talk about the level of work I mean that we went back to basics with her in the beginning working her on loose rein to get her to work through her back and to get her hindquarters under her more. Canter was a slight issue then but she never tried to rear. It's just lately when we started to try to work with more contact that she panics and it does appear to be just that.. panic.
She is ridden in contact in walk and trot no problem working correctly through her back and tracking up beautifully. She has the most amazing walk and trot. She just doesn't want to know when it comes to canter.
I don't know about collected moments in canter when out hacking, I'll have to ask my daughter.


History - what I have been told is that she was broken in and then just left in the field for a while before being bought by the previous owners for their daughter. Unusually for a Dutch KWPN she has never done a dressage competition. Said daughter discovered boys a few months down the line and lost interest in horses. B was then hardly ridden and then mainly to hack. Whether this is true or not I am beginning to doubt.:mad: Although I do know she has never done a dresage test.

The transition to canter with her is more like a big leap forward with her head stuck up in the air and then up on her back legs she goes. At first she only did this occasionally and we thought that with proper schooling this would stop as it does appear that she has never been taught to transition to the canter properly.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the osteopath finds (or not). Luckily we have a very good instructress is very experienced and believes in harmony between horse and rider. She has just had another mare like this in for training a few weeks ago. She worked with her on double lines for the first few days and then progressed from there. At end of 2 weeks the mare went back to a very happy owner who could ride her again. She is aware of the problems we are having and is also waiting to hear what the osteopath has to say. It's just a shame she is over 70km away or we could have worked with her a few times a week to try and solve this.

Daughter is very upset by this and thinks she is to blame but doesn't know what she is doing wrong. She is a very quiet rider and has been praised by a number of people for how friendly she rides. Her instructress has tried to assure her that it is not something she is doing but there is something wrong somewhere and we just have to try and find it.

Ulcers - wouldn't this happen in other gaits as well and not just canter?
 
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maggiesmum said:
Ulcers? My boys biggest symptoms were his tremendous explosions which have now stopped with treatment.
Click to expand...

Agree.

"If the horse has developed ulcers in this unprotected part of the stomach, the already significant pain becomes even worse when acid is splashed onto them again.

The response in different horses is variable, but with horses required to jump it may show as jumping flat, running out, bucking or refusals. It is not uncommon for them to buck after a jump due to the compression and splashing effect previously mentioned.

For the same reason, some horses may be reluctant to go downhill.
Other horses may kick out and resist canter aids or rein back, pirouettes or slides (in western riding classes).

Due to the consistent muscle pain patterns found in ulcer cases, they also may refuse to pick up the correct lead in canter. Often they do not engage the hindquarters correctly – commonly in the right hind as most horses are ‘right handed’ and place more strain in that limb.

They are often restricted in the shoulders due to tightening of the facia over the muscles over the shoulder and wither pocket area. This contracture limits the ability of the muscles to lengthen and shorten appropriately."

Dr Kerry Ridegway.
 
I think I'd get a 2nd EDT opinion and then possibly a different (not harsher) bit. If you can find EDT who is also a vet, I would recommend that. It is also possible that the saddler may find something as she must have changed shape while you've had her.
Are you feeding her alfalfa at all? If so stop. Some mares react badly to it.
 
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micramadam said:
Oh dear! Where do I begin? :(

We are having a few problems with our new horse. 6 yo KWPN mare.
This is her breeding -
http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/330947
Click to expand...

And that's probably a good part of the problems you're having. That's VERY good breeding for a dressage horse - but you could expect her to be 'hot'! I recently had a 4 year old mare in who was Jazz ex a Flemmingh mare and she was a scorcher - stunning movement but VERY explosive at the teensiest thing that upset her!

Obviously you need to rule out all possible health problems - particularly back - and perhaps send her to your instructor for a couple of weeks. Then SHE will be able to advise you whether the mare is just a bit TOO much horse for your daughter. Some of these very well-bred WBs are very much a professional ride! No reflection on your daughter, but even the best of amateurs can meet their match!
 
haven't read all the replies but I've had experience with a horse like this, really nice sweet boy loved to canter on hacks in a straight line or gradually turning but he would bronc, buck in the school when asked for canter. Turned out he had hock and suspensory ligament problems so found the more collected and tighter turning in the school really painful. Can your daughter canter her in a larger space in a circle when out hacking? Say in a field and ask for more contact?
 
I agree with the others, that you need to get the physical checked out thoroughly.
If your instructor were to have problems riding her would you consider having her re-started? I think that so often with "problem" horses we try to sort out what is going on in front of us, when sometimes there is some fundamental gap in their education. Go back, methodically and carefully re-start and with a bit of luck the problem goes away.
I'd also agree that she might just be a very hot horse and a bit much, but you'd be able to check that out by getting someone with experience of horses like that to work with her.
 
Difficult isn't it.
Just asked daughter and her canter transitions are perfect when out hacking. :confused: Makes daughter so frustrated that she won't do this when schooling.

Oberon - will consider scoping for ulcers but to be honest I don't think it is this but I'll admit I'm not an expert. She does pick up the correct lead in canter and works with her hindquarters under her ....when we can get her to work into a controlled canter. Which is what is so frustrating. The times she doesn't explode, her canter is also good very uphill.

She doesn't get Alfalfa just 1/4 scoop very basic pony nuts twice a day, a few fresh or dried chamomile flowers, a few dried nettles every so often and now the Naf Magic with the odd apple or carrot and a full net of hayledge which lasts through the night. This appears to be maintaining her very nicely. She is beautifully muscled with the ribs easily felt but not quite showing.
 
I see, that totally threw me - sorry!

Going from previous threads from your daughter is this a new issue? Or you are now asking her to work in a more advanced outline and she is throwing her toys out of the pram?
 
You have done very well to take your time with this mare and do everything very slowly. She is not a typical 6 year old in terms of experience. The videos on the other thread are lovely :) Your daughter is a very nice rider and its a real shame this mare is frightening her. All you can do is go with what the people here have suggested - full physical exam. I would choose a good horse vet that is experienced with competition horses, and then work with the trainer. Fingers crossed it is something physical that can be easily remedied. I think when it is in their head that rearing is a good way to avoid something they do not like/want to do it is a lot harder to fix and is potentially very dangerous as it is something they can return to in a time of stress such as at shows etc.
 
katastrophykat said:
Broke_but_happy, four seasons is micramadams daughter ...

MM, nothing to help but hugs from across the north sea! Having issues with Ru at the mo so know how you feel- I feel bloody useless xxx
Click to expand...

Thanks Kat. What problems you having with Ru? PM me.

We are thinking of restarting her but will wait for the outcome with the saddler and osteopath. Instructress will restart her as she is well known and respected for being able to sort 'problem' horses but in a very humane and and friendly way.

Yes, she can be very hot but OMG you should see her when my daughter has her working properly. :eek: Not prepared to give up on her. If it takes a year or longer then so be it. This is a Grand Prix horse if we manage to get the canter sorted or so we have been told. Fingers crossed, this can happen.
 
If it was my horse, absolute first stop would be a different EDT - no doubt. You say the horse behaves out hacking so unlikely to be the bit, I wouldn't change that, particularly if you want to do dressage.

Failing that, sounds like this horse has a lot of breeding and is bright and clever, alternatively ulcers - but i'm not a vet and havent seen your horse!! Reading your post, first thing I think is teeth. Whilst the horse behaves out hacking I am sure she is having much less pressure on her, so she may be able to handle any pain then or it may be less.

But don't panic, you sound knowledgeable and I really think first stop is a second equine dentist. Try not to overthink it too much, just check the basics again first stop.
 
Broke_But_Happy said:
I see, that totally threw me - sorry!

Going from previous threads from your daughter is this a new issue? Or you are now asking her to work in a more advanced outline and she is throwing her toys out of the pram?
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the hard. She is definitely throwing her toys when asked to work in a more advanced outline but only in canter.:confused:

Her half passes and shoulder in's are worth 8's and 9's and she loves to do these but if we can't even get her to do a basic canter transition what use is the rest.
 
It really could be anything. Hips, back, neck, teeth, ulcers, brain/ attitude.

Just to add a friends 5 year old I used to ride always had canter problems and it turned out it was his hips. Walk and trot here awesome - canter he could never get the right lead and had trouble with transitions. Hope you can get to the bottom of it soon
 
I know I'm a bit namby-pamby, but I'd be asking the vet to take a look.

The big leap into canter could be splashing stomach acid. It might be that she's not as relaxed in the school as she is on the hacks, hence the difference.

There could be a rear suspensories issue. The canter in the school will by the nature of the school restriction cause a big horse to work differently to how she does when hacking. What is the school surface like? Is it deep? Slippy?
 
Ok this might not make any sense but I'll try and explain my theory!

In trot as the legs move in diagonal pairs the body of the horse is quite level and stays that way, therefore the atlas/axis/poll may not move very much. However in canter the body of the horse is now more uphill than level and there may more movement in the atlas/axis/poll from the 'rocking' movement of the canter.

This may be a load of tosh but it's a theory?
 
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