Explosive behaviour - looking for the cause

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Patterdale

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I have a very beautiful, quality 5 year old. I’ve had him since he was a foal. He’s always been a very nice type but a little bit of a ‘why should I?’ character. Never bad though.

He was lightly backed at 3, then properly started at 4. He had about 6 weeks work and was very sweet, never bucked and was walk/trot/canter happily, jumping a course and hacking.

This was last year. Then, in September he had completely unnecessary colic surgery. After the surgery he got a large hernia so spent many weeks in a hernia belt.

He still has the hernia but it is deemed cosmetic only (after I insisted on extensive investigations into whether it should be repaired). I sought multiple opinions and all were unanimous that we should leave it alone.

In May, he came back into work. Hacking quietly at first. He was fine, then began a bit of leaping around when asked to leave the yard alone or walk whilst the kids went to pop over a log. This leaping around escalated but then I managed to get a lid on it and he was quietly hacking with kids on after a couple of weeks.

In the school is another issue. He just gets explosive as soon as he gets in there. If I get on with someone on the ground and walk quietly in a small circle in one corner next to the mirror, I can work up to trot. But if I leave the mirror or anything happens to set him off, explosive again.

I decided to send him away for more consistency. He has been there two weeks and they said he was v well behaved but sent no videos. Then they took him to clear round yesterday and she couldn’t go in the ring. 5 mins she got on he erupted massively rodeoing round the car park. Managed to get him inthe collecting ring but he was just exploding all over the place so she put him away. Got on him at home and he was still bucking. Said he hadn’t done it up to then despite riding him lots in the school.

Where do I go from here? I won’t say any of my thoughts as I’d like to hear what other people think.

Thank you!
 
Thank you - but he’s not very clearly telling me anything though, as he is fine a lot of the time and is explosive in legitimate moments of a baby under pressure.

I am very happy to accept that it may be physical, but my days of just taking a horse to a vet for a ‘full work up’ and asking them to find the problem in vague cases like this are long gone. Wasted a lot of money like that in the past.

I’d like to try decide on some potential differentials that may be causing this before I get the vet involved.
 
Is it possible to give him say 6 months to just decompress and get over things? To me it sounds as if he's insecure and unhappy, rather than in pain, but of course he could be. Did he have any sort of bodywork after surgery? When mine was operated on the vet said it's a lot physically to be carried by their legs upside down, so some tightness/soreness is to be expected. A chiropractor made a massive difference to him, so I can only assume he must have been sore.
 
meleeka said:
Did he have any sort of bodywork after surgery? When mine was operated on the vet said it's a lot physically to be carried by their legs upside down, so some tightness/soreness is to be expected. A chiropractor made a massive difference to him, so I can only assume he must have been sore.
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Absolutely, this would be my first port of call. I would favour soft tissue work over chiropractic personally, as that should passively lead to chiropractic releases if done well, and that way the horse can process the changes. One of my own horses struggled physically after a GA and it took a fair bit to get his body to let go again and rediscover comfort.

ETA: Having read U.N.Owen's post it's reminded me mine developed ulcers too (it was a few years ago now, and as the soft tissue issues took longer to resolve I always remember those as the more major issue), so editing to say though I would explore bodywork first, it would be then or alongside ulcer treatment.
 
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Well a horse being explosive like that during work/high stress situations I would always consider the possibility of a muscle condition like pssm.

But then you have no idea of what real or remembered pain and discomfort he has around the colic op area.

And given the type of surgery, and rehab from that surgery and the hernia, there could be all sorts of psychological hang ups that have got into him, that then present themselves in the situations you describe. But to start to work those out I think you'd probably need to do more diarying of the small details of how he acts in different scenarios, and/or some slightly out-of-the-box exercise and training with him to tease out his reactions to different things in a slightly more controlled way.
 
Patterdale said:
Thank you - but he’s not very clearly telling me anything though, as he is fine a lot of the time and is explosive in legitimate moments of a baby under pressure.

I am very happy to accept that it may be physical, but my days of just taking a horse to a vet for a ‘full work up’ and asking them to find the problem in vague cases like this are long gone. Wasted a lot of money like that in the past.

I’d like to try decide on some potential differentials that may be causing this before I get the vet involved.
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I'd scope for ulcers first- he had a very stressful period and it would be pretty common to develop ulcers as a result.
After that, I'd ask be looking at hocks, hind suspensories and x-raying the back
 
I would put the saddle away and put him on long reins for a month and take him everywhere you want to ride like that. Out for a hack, into the school, to a show and work him around the car park/collecting ring where ever he had a problem. Up to the mirror, away from it cantering in the school. See if he is a nice happy horse doing all of that or if the behaviour persists. If he was mine I would probably just turn away for 6 months and start again but most people wouldn't be willing to give them that time. It has been very stressful for him so far.
After trying time off and work without a saddle and rider then it may be more obvious it is definitely pain and where to start investigating.

Patterdale said:
Thank you - but he’s not very clearly telling me anything though, as he is fine a lot of the time and is explosive in legitimate moments of a baby under pressure.
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he is very clearly telling you he is unhappy, has a problem and people need to listen. He may just be a baby under pressure but he has also been through colic surgery and a heap of other stuff.
He is not indicating that this is caused by a specific point on his body, unfortunately they rarely do. He is just saying help, it's not working for me.

If I was going to do something now I would probably eliminate ulcers. That would be a start.
 
Trying to think what I would do if he were mine: def scope for ulcers. If he has them, I would treat them (prob not the injections if he’s sensitive) and then start again very slowly and carefully with the basics. I would be thinking months rather than weeks.

Can you do this yourself? By that I mean, do you have the time and skills to re-back him? Am just thinking that sending him away is just adding to the stress. Plus I think it sounds like he needs to re-build some trust in people after all the hospital visits and being sent away, and ideally it should be you.

And I’d make sure his tack fits - I don’t think it’s the sole cause of such explosive behavior, but it doesn’t help with the trust if the tack is uncomfortable.

If he’s still being explosive, then I would be thinking something somewhere is very painful. Maybe from the surgery, maybe something totally unrelated.

I’m not sure you going to be able to completely avoid vets but I do get where you are coming from.

However, I’ve also wasted a lot of money over the years on physios, new saddles, trainers, sending away for schooling, behaviorists, etc etc only to find out it’s something like hock arthritis.
 
Thanks all. I do have the skills to reback him but not the daily time, plus I’m not as brave as I used to be and wondering if he was sensing this and taking the P. This was my thinking in sending him to a professional.

However, since he’s still doing it with a stronger rider (albeit only 5% of the time) I am pretty much certain it is physical. He’s only been there two weeks and I’ll pick him up this week.

I am not willing to throw thousands at diagnostics. But I am very willing to throw him out in a big field for a year. He’s already been turned out 4-5 months before coming back into work but I’ll happily give it more.

Think I will do scope, physio, turn away. I have plenty of other things to be worrying about at the mo, he will be happy in the field and I’ll worry about him another time. In the nicest possible way! Im pretty certain he’s comfortable in the field, he is 100% sound and always appears happy.

My thoughts are ulcers or scar tissue. I am just so beyond furious with myself for allowing myself to be forced into putting him through surgery.
 
I think I would keep him at home for now, if at all possible. Give him an ulcer friendly diet and time for that to make a difference. I Have found that Aloe Vera juice can help to keep the stomach comfortable. I would give him an undemanding few months in a routine (so not really turned away) with input from a bodyworker of your choice and then, bring him back slowly to working in long reins, adding new tack gradually to see if you can pinpoint exactly what is his trigger, if there still is one.
 
Patterdale said:
Thanks all. I do have the skills to reback him but not the daily time, plus I’m not as brave as I used to be and wondering if he was sensing this and taking the P. This was my thinking in sending him to a professional.

However, since he’s still doing it with a stronger rider (albeit only 5% of the time) I am pretty much certain it is physical. He’s only been there two weeks and I’ll pick him up this week.

I am not willing to throw thousands at diagnostics. But I am very willing to throw him out in a big field for a year. He’s already been turned out 4-5 months before coming back into work but I’ll happily give it more.

Think I will do scope, physio, turn away. I have plenty of other things to be worrying about at the mo, he will be happy in the field and I’ll worry about him another time. In the nicest possible way! Im pretty certain he’s comfortable in the field, he is 100% sound and always appears happy.

My thoughts are ulcers or scar tissue. I am just so beyond furious with myself for allowing myself to be forced into putting him through surgery.
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Sounds like a really good plan, although the one from Pearlsasinger above is also a good one - similar, but with a bit more regular human contact.

I’m wondering if I would scope/physio if my plan is to turn away at grass for 6m…I might just save the stress and money and see if things settle with the time off at grass. Also, physio, kind of a waste of money if he’s just going to go out.

I think I’d collect him from the yard, and turn him out, maybe with daily contact just coming away from the others to have a feed, so he associates you with something nice, and leave it at that.

Then when I had more time and headspace, I’d start him up again slowly and see what happens. If he then starts exploding, I’d get the vet to have a look and advise.

Can you have him living out a lot of the time even when he’s in work? He sounds like that type to me! Do you know what set the colic off?
 
Also, just wanted to say, hope you are looking after yourself too - you said you have lots of other things to worry about and then this on top of it all? I find I cannot cope very well at all with horse worries on top of other ones, it just tips me right over the edge. If turning him away for 6m helps you, then that’s as good a reason as any to do it. It will have big benefits to everyone.
 
He lives out in a herd completely anyway, all mine do.

The colic was just stress and possibly worm damage. He needed flunixin because he is a soft bugger, the vets refused and said because he had been colicking over 12 hours and no better after IV bute wore off, he had to be referred. He travelled badly to the hospital because he always travels badly, he landed there sweaty.
All the diagnostic tests they did were fine but they said as the colic hadn’t gone it was surgery or euthanasia. I argued but no good. I would like to sue them tbh, they ruined my good pony in my eyes.
 
maya2008 said:
Psychological trauma is also a possibility that could be adding to whatever else might be going on. There was the surgery and the long recovery in pens and gradually increasing spaces - a big thing for a young pony. Is it always about leaving other horses/familiar places?
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Yes interesting thought. He doesn’t like leaving others but he did have constant company (high quality company, wee Timmy 🦄🦄) and was turned out from 8 weeks again with company. He has never actually been alone in his life tbh which hadn’t occurred to me until now.

Food for thought, thanks!
 
Jellymoon said:
I’m wondering if I would scope/physio if my plan is to turn away at grass for 6m…I might just save the stress and money and see if things settle with the time off at grass. Also, physio, kind of a waste of money if he’s just going to go out.
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This would absolutely not be money wasted, but it could be time wasted with a still uncomfortable pony not recovering as quickly as he could, or indeed at all.

A really good bodyworker on the case (the OP knows who I’d have recommended before she moved away) plus a scope for ulcers to check both of those out. Then depending on that, turn out to de compress.

There’s so much that happened to him with the colic, the op, the stress, the necessarily very tight hernia belt that could have set up issues.

Fingers crossed he’ll come right.
 
Scope for ulcers.
Turn away if you don't have the time/head space/scope to rehab back into work right now and chase a diagnosis/solution - some down time rarely does them any harm

Adhesions might be an issue but these only improve by being broken down with movement so bit of a catch 22

I missed why the colic surgery was unnecessary?
 
Tiddlypom said:
This would absolutely not be money wasted, but it could be time wasted with a still uncomfortable pony not recovering as quickly as he could, or indeed at all.

A really good bodyworker on the case (the OP knows who I’d have recommended before she moved away) plus a scope for ulcers to check both of those out. Then depending on that, turn out to de compress.

There’s so much that happened to him with the colic, the op, the stress, the necessarily very tight hernia belt that could have set up issues.

Fingers crossed he’ll come right.
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Couldn't agree more.

If only all physical issues resolved with turnout that would be great, but traumas like that just don't - it's not a natural experience a horse's body would ever go through, being suspended upside down in the air by their legs, the body just isn't equipped to process it - or reset. Nor getting back up after being knocked out and their body not being with it enough to protect itself from any compression-type incidents if they stagger into the walls, no matter how well padded.

Trips or falls in the field are an ordeal enough for the body to try to recover from, and they often need help to do that as it is to stop them just locking up and compensating from then on. And that's a natural thing a horse's body might experience.
 
Tiddlypom said:
This would absolutely not be money wasted, but it could be time wasted with a still uncomfortable pony not recovering as quickly as he could, or indeed at all.

A really good bodyworker on the case (the OP knows who I’d have recommended before she moved away) plus a scope for ulcers to check both of those out. Then depending on that, turn out to de compress.

There’s so much that happened to him with the colic, the op, the stress, the necessarily very tight hernia belt that could have set up issues.

Fingers crossed he’ll come right.
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That’s a very fair point and I do agree, ‘waste of money’ was perhaps not the right wording, but my thinking was, with physio, they can tell you where they find areas of pain/stiffness and give you a program to go away and work on, but if he’s going to be turned away and the OP just wants a total break from it all (understandably) then perhaps the time for physio is when he comes back from his break?
Also, physio programs can be quite hard work for the horses, and perhaps if he’s got into a state of not trusting humans and not wanting to leave his mates, that might not help.
Same with ulcers - the starving and scoping and then trying to get them to take the meds, all a bit stressful isn’t it.
If he’s happy bimbling around the field, having nice experiences with people, learning that leaving the mates is not going to be stressful and painful, maybe that is all that’s required just now.

But I do agree that physio/bodywork is very important and never a waste of money.
 
Tbh, if I was turning out for 6 months then I would be getting physio every 2-4 weeks throughout that time to give them the best possible chance of coming right, particularly given the hernia.

Is the hernia still a hole do you know OP? Or have you just got the hernia remnants left on the outer tissue?
 
When they did the surgery they just opened him up, said ‘oh this is all fine’ and closed him up.
He was prone to spasmodic colic when stressed, my vet just gave him flunixin and he calmed down and felt better.
When it happened prior to surgery he was away at camp. I was expecting mild colic but the vets there refused him flunixin and would only give him bute. The Bute didn’t help enough so he remained stressed and mildly colicking.

All diagnostics normal apart from very slightly raised lactate on peritoneal tap. Very slightly. Serum lactate, HR etc all normal. But their policy was operate as it had been going on 12 hours.
 
This smacks to me of pain somewhere that is exacerbated by movement and/or being under saddle.

Am hearing what OP is saying re. vets/work-up - unless there is something specific to "find" then yes would agree you can throw good money after bad.

My hunch would be to turn away until next Spring and see how he comes back; but as someone else has said I'd probably have him looked at regularly throughout that period by a body-worker or some kind of fascia/massage therapist. Perhaps a little light long-reining during this period as well would be appropriate and perhaps helpful - whatever bodyworker is engaged would be the best person to advise.

Re. ulcers. Yes this is probably a consideration to take on board; I personally would treat him as if he had them tbh, on the basis that it just might do some good.

It feels as if there is some kind of fibrous/muscular/fascial attachment somewhere which is causing discomfort and/or pain; the problem is firstly finding it, and the second problem is to know what to do with it if/when you do find it.

Sorry this has happened, this sounds like a lovely horse. Hope you can find out what's going on.
 
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This will 100% be pain related. I am sorry to say. They don't behave like this consistently without good reason especially if they are being ridden by someone who is not intimidated by the behaviour.
 
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