Extreme temper tantrum?

C

Cragrat

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 August 2013
Messages
1,765
Visit site
Ok, short version is, my horse threw himself over backwards today with me on him, for the second time in about 3 months.

I really hesitated before posting this here, because I know lots of replies will be telling me to have him PTS. I don't want to go there, not yet at least.

For my sins, I bred him. For a million different reasons, he has had a slow start to his education, he now 10 but has been in proper steady work only since he was 7( though he was backed at 4) and he has various injuries since then, not all his fault, so isn't nearly as far on as he he should be. However, we won the local intro dressage accumulator this summer, and went to a BD have a go day a few days ago, got a pleasing prelim test result, and was encouraged to affiliate, which I have done. He has also successfully completed a few UA ODE's , SJ's etc. We have regular- usually weekly - private lessons with a very good instructor.

About 3 months ago I wanted to practice a dressage test, so took him up to the moors, to find a flat bit. ( we don't have a proper arena). I could tell as soon as I got in he was in a bad mood, but stupidly persevered. I down graded my expectations to simply completing a 20m circle, then turned for home, but headed the long way, as I didn't want to reward his bad behaviour with a quick return to the field. He threw himself over, very deliberately. I managed to get out of the way, it was a soft landing, no one hurt, got back on and continued.

He used to rear a reasonable amount- he rears in the field a lot, it is his go-to when things are exciting/scary/not going his way. He also has a very fast reverse gear, and can reverse until stopped for some reason, then rear, and leap forward.

So today I hacked him to a field recently cut for haylage, with the wrapped bales still in the field. There is a nice flat area, and I wanted to work on his suppleness, so we started with a nice loose walk on a 20m circle. He was a little excited- not been in this field often, just feeling a bit 'well'. He was starting to calm down and stretch, when the farmer drove along the track in a truck. I walked over for a chat, horse starts to get a bit impatient after 30 seconds, and starts reversing and spinning. He reversed for about 300 yards until he bounced off the hedge, and I managed to get him going forwards again, and he was rewarded. We walked on a loose rein back to the circle. My tactic through this had been quiet persistence rather than trying to pick a fight. I could feel he was spoiling for a fight, so I went for patience. I had spun him a couple of times in his reversing, but that was winding him up, so allowed him to back until he hit the hedge.

So, we calmly arrive at the circle area in walk, but he is less settled. I change the rein, in walk, outside the circle, but he starts becoming nappy and resistant on return to the circle. He hits reverse again, but when I spin him, he plants, really, really plants. Any attempts to cajole/encourage/MAKE him go forward, in ANY direction, result in threats to rear. Sometimes I get him going fowards, and instantly reward and praise. A circle later he is either planted or reversing again. This continues for quite a while. At one point he reverses, rears up very high, but bounces off a bale, but manages to slide down on to his feet with me still on. We spend quite a lot of time stuck IN a hedge. He collect rose thorns in his face and backside. Each time I do get forward movement, he is praised. I am NOT hanging off his mouth at any point.
Now, perhaps made the wrong call next. He was planting seriously, and if I waited him out, he just went in to high speed reverse. Trying to rock his feet, bend his nose to my foot, spin him- none of it was working. So I started to put a bit more pressure on him- until now I hadn't touched him with the dressage whip, so I smacked it on my leg, growled and shouted at him, really booted him with my heels. He was trying to rear, so I had short reins, not letting him get his head up, keeping my weight forward. We got some more forward movement , I praised and rewarded. We changed direction, return to the circle, he napped again, tried to rear, I wouldn't let him raise his headI growled, and he flipped :( straight up and over, no hesitation, dead straight onto his back. Rolled off me, started to eat grass :( I was winded and bruised, but after swearing at him, I dragged him over to a bank side and go back on, and returned to the circle again. Did a few more, keeping the reins short, no more nice guy, did a few in trot, inc rein changes. He thought about napping, but a growl was enough. Walked home on a loose rein, wiped mud and grass off the saddle cantle, and took some ibuprofen and got an ice pack:(

So, what now, apart from PTS? Between the two incidents, butter wouldn't melt. Well, not quite, but no rearing. Teeth checked a few months ago. No problem with first saddle, but 2 months ago got a different saddle. Snaffle bit the same, no reason to suspect it. Back checked, no problems. Doesn't wear a martingale of any kind, but always has a neck strap.

I think he's a sulky spoilt brat, but how do I deal with it?
Tomorrow I am thinking of long-reining him on the same circle?

Homemade chocolate chip cookies if you have read this far!
 
Whether his back has checked out fine or not, I'd have a saddler out, and a vet. There's a huge difference between something rearing as an evasion with some napping, and flipping over deliberately. My old mare did the former, but never ever the latter, and my ar$e wouldn't have graced the saddle again if she had ever flipped- my bones are worth more to me intact :(
 
I will have him checked again - saddler is booked and coming next week, will get physio as soon as I can get in touch, but only a couple of days ago he was working very nicely in the same tack, received lots of praise for his nice paces etc, and very respectable test score. Vet is coming tomorrow. Yes, he could have done something to himself, but he didn't object to be being saddled or mounted, and moved loosely and freely when not having a tantrum. He didn't feel tight or short in any way. I did check his back over for any pain responses when we for home, and couldn't find any. The first time he flipped he was using a different saddle and we continued using that saddle for about another month with no further issues. I am not ruling out that pain could be the cause- I almost hope it is, because that might be easier to deal with than behavioural issues :(
 
I think it's a bit soon for pts, at this stage!

Having said that I wouldn't advise you (or anyone else) to ride him until you have got to the bottom of this.

I used to have a mare who behaved in a similar fashion, although her go-to reaction was to buck under pressure. Eventually I realised that food was causing her problems and changed her diet to nothing but fibre, which changed her behaviour beyond recognition.

What do you feed your horse?

I would certainly have all the physical checks done again, possibly getting 2nd opinions.
 
Get its backed x-rayed. Doesn't cost that much. A physio or looking for a pain response won't tell you if has a ks or not.

Also is he any better if you do a bit of groundwork. What about trying to ride him first, if he is in a 'mood' get off and lunge him, work with him on the ground until you get him more relaxed and listening then get back on him. If he is flinging himself over you don't really want to be on him(!) but if he does it on the lunge etc that's his problem.
 
Glad you aren't hurt - you certainly have guts to get back on after he's deliberately flipped himself.

You mention he has had injuries in the past - what sort were they?

I had a mare that resorted to rearing and napping - it started after she flipped over a log cross country. It was in the early days of chiropractic treatment and with hindsight I realise that she should have had many treatments to sort her problem.

What are you feeding him - are you able to just work him off grass for a while or as someone else mentioned feeding a total fibre diet.

Try giving a small feed of chaff or beet 30 mins before riding in case he has an ulcer as this stops the stomach acid from sloshing around.

Other than that - please be careful flippers can do terrible damage to you should you get landed on.
 
I'm sorry but I doubt I would bother getting vet checks for a horse that deliberately flips over- slipping and losing balance while rearing is one thing, but to flip straight over is quite another and as he has done is twice, it clearly didn't put him off the first time!

Whether it is a pain response or not, I wouldn't be getting back on something that did that.

Out of interest, do you get the same behaviour if you take the pressure off e.g. quiet hacking etc? Does he rear/evade when you put pressure on but aren't riding (lunging or long reining)?
 
There is one not far from here that has been known to do that. Thorough investigation finally revealed that he had fractured his wither. Flipping over is far too risky and far too much effort to be just done on a whim - he has had problems and has struggled to get you to listen to him, so that is his action of last resort. I would be getting a thorough vet check (including x rays of the spine) and then making a decision about his future based on the prognosis.
 
I will talk to the vet today about x-rays, although it puzzles me that between the two incidents he has been working happily and going forward, schooling/jumping/competing etc.

The common feature of the incidents is that I took him by himself to an open space, and asked him to school, which is why my first thought was that it was a temper tantrum.

He lives out 24/7 in the summer, on old hill grazing. He has a small feed twice a day, of unmolassed sugar beet, linseed, salt and minerals. He has a small amount of oats, - literally a handful- but I will cut those out.

Today, I am going to return to yesterday's scene of crime, and long rein him, in his saddle, and see what he does.

ETA he has been hacking alone and in company, up and down hill, w/t/c, with no incidents.

Oh, and injuries have all involved his legs- a bad kick whilst out hunting, cuts, slight check ligament pull etc.
 
Last edited:
i really sympathise with you , my current horses rears and previous horse used to flip herself(nothing to do with me, i buy cheap naughty horses to give them another chance!).

as long as you are happy he is not in pain from his back, i would try a few ulcer supplements. My chap plants and if pushed will rear, hewill buck whilst running backwards then rear and leap-same as yours. He has been treated for ulcers but in all honestly the gastroguard made minimal diff. Tests for hind gut ulcers came back negative but what HAS made a huge huge diff is protexin acid ease.

There was never any rhyme or reason, he has gone all the way up to inter 1, quite succesfully, qual for the regionals and winter champs etc, whilst randomley exploding and napping and dont get me wrong he is still very very prone to it but the protexin has certainly taken the edge off him so that he now plants and stops, thus giving me an opportunity to think, rather than going 0-60 explosive rearing.

when he does plant i wouldnt pressure him, no matter how long it takes, rock him, or use turn on the forhand to get the feet moving and then really praise him. it will feel ****** horrible and pointless but ive made more progress doing this than engaging in full on war with mine, it took a couple of months to really sink in but its definately made him more forward thinking.

You have to kid him its his idea-as out last show mine napped at a flooded track(only track from warm up to arena) and because i simply didnt have time to let him fanny around for 10min,he was led through and frog marched to arena. he hated that and downed tools IN the arena because of it.........yours may never be very reliable, in the same way mine wont ever be, but it can be improved enough to be safe ish.................and if you are anything like me, safe ish is good enough!
 
i had a flipper who passed vet checks etc. it was only when he got a proper xray of his back that his issues showed - he was perfect saddling up and moved perfectly. His reactions would come out of the blue though, there was no pattern. I was sitting on him while his head was down taking a break grazing for a second, and then he'd just go up vertical for no reason. once his back was treated the extreme behaviour stopped.

If he was mine (and pain was definitely ruled out) as a last ditch attempt i'd be tempted to send him to a tougher, old school rider or a hunting yard. Somewhere where a rider would completely put it back up to him when he misbehaves. the patient approach doesn't seem to have worked and if you think he is just being a pig then i'd be curious to see would a harder, more argumentative rider sort him out a bit?
 
PTS is a bit extreme!
You have done the sensible thing and got back checked, teeth checked etc
If it were me I would probably go back to a lot of groundwork, I love long reining (and I'm a bit of a wimp) so I think I would defo go back to the scene of the crime whilst having the safety of both my feet placed firmly on the ground.
After a couple of weeks with ground work, then progress back to ridden work. For safety reasons if you can I would always try and have a hacking or riding buddy!

It is very difficult, I have a super sensitive mare who you have to ask politely to do things, I have found out the hard way that if I loose my temper or get flustered at all then it all goes very badly wrong. I just try and completely ignore her strops and then reward her good behaviour. But easier said than done when they are planting feet in the middle of the field.
Do you ride with spurs? Or would that make your horse worse? My mare does not react well to even a tap behind the leg with a whip... Squealing, cow kicking and bucking. But I have found a tiny pair of rounded spurs are much more effective when she is planting her feet, she is very forward going naturally but when she is having her 5 min tantrum I find being able to apply a bit of extra pressure with my leg is enough.
I have super short legs, and she has grown a lot bigger than I thought she would so I need all the help I can get in the leg department?

Good luck and hope you get it sorted

X
 
Firstly I would get off to a really good horse vet for a problem with performance work up .
I would defiantly get the back X-rayed even if the vets find no reason to do so ( made that mistake once myself ) .
I would also suspect the hocks .
If it's a learned behaviour and some horses are very upwards in their expression ( polite name for rearing b*****ds ) then it's very difficult for you this is a very dangerous trait and the chance of you being very badly hurt is there ,any horse any time can seriously harm it's rider ,that's a fact , however there's nothing worse than lying squashed in hospital having come off a horse you thought was dodgy but got on anyway .
If the issue only comes up schooling then I too would consider hunting for the horse lots of difficult horses have happy lives hunting if it suits them.
 
I would second the thorough vet work up route incl xrays and I probably wouldn't be getting back on until after that has been done. If you are still riding him, please make sure you have a body protector on and maybe consider an airjacket too. All that said, this could just be a case of him getting into a big open space, being asked to work and it blowing his brain. I know for a fact that if you took mine onto moor land and tried to school him he would object, but he wouldnt flip over, that does seem very extreme. Good luck, I think you have been very brave to get back on at all!
 
I agree vet checks etc are really important but I also appreciate when a horse is being naughty and you can end spending a fortune when it's just really bad manners. What is he like when you lunge/long rein him? Has he ever done something similar? I would personally not get on him straight away if you are thinking of going for a ride - always put him on the lunge/long reins, gather what mood he is in and go from there, your back is far too valuable to risk it. I would also take all sugar/high energy out of his diet - not oats or anything until he can learn to control himself. If he needs a bit more then go for something like Calm & Condition or just more forage. Does he live in or out? Could you chuck him out 24/7? Also what is he like when he's out with other horses? Is he dominant or more submissive? If he is generally a bit of a character who likes to push the boundaries then maybe it is back to ground work until he realises that you are the boss. I would put a time limit on giving him the benefit of the doubt - quite short like 2 weeks and if he is still doing this get the vet. I know this isn't the route many would go down but I have been there with a naughty/temperamental horse and spent every penny trying to figure out what is wrong.
 
We had one do this. He turned out to have navicular disease. He wasn't lame, and had all the usual checks. He would suddenly freak out and go up and over for no apparent reason. We later realised it was surface related, which made us think feet.

I honestly would be thinking of getting x rays.

And I agree, I wouldn't just automatically put to sleep either, but please do take care of yourself, it's not worth the risk!!
 
His behaviour seems to be triggered by impatience rather than being asked to do something physically demanding which would make me suspect that its not pain related. Also he sounds like a dominant character who has never been firmly reprimanded for bad behaviour (you mention prsise and reward for good behaviour a lot).

At 10 years old with that sort of learnt behaviour whether its pain related or not I think its too dangerous to persevere. It would be interesting to get a back xray to rule out kissing spines but if he were mine I'd be retiring him to field ornament status and buying something more experienced and sane!
 
Just to point out, not specifically at OP but lots of people who say, 'but he/she worked fine in between'. Have a think about your own injuries, they aren't always painful, my back is fine 90% of the time but one little twist the wrong way can drop me like a stone, this only happens once in a blue moon because I protect it posturally, horses do that too (think of the amount of horses that can put up with a badly fitting saddle for so long), don't be fooled by intermittent reactions.

I read an interesting article about horses and pain, they put up with a lot of pain/discomfort caused by their owners, for example when you may have to clean out a wound, they don't know that riding isn't supposed to be one of those things that they just have to put up with. It really made sense to me.
 
Update/next steps.
I long reined him, fully tacked, girthed up tight as if to be ridden, in the place he flipped on Tuesday. He tried resisting a few times, but generally seemed in a less tense mood. I worked him for about 25 minutes, and did a reasonable amount on a 15m circle as well, to look for stiffness/pain. I couldn't see any.
The vet came yesterday, and poked and prodded and tested. He felt an x ray would be a waste of money at this stage.
Having read and thought about everyone's replies, I think for now the most likely explanation is that it is behavioural. The saddler is coming next week, also the physio, but the vet and I don't think they'll find anything.

His pattern is to stop going forward, and then to flip. Somehow I need to help him get through that. I am inclined to PS's idea of getting him to think its his idea to move( though how I do that, I am not so sure). I agree with Bantry about the impatience - rings very true. He has been reprimanded, he does try to be dominant in the herd, though the old mare keeps him in his place, as do I! He doesn't get away with stuff, and each time he has flipped I have got straight back on, and we have carried on with what we are doing. However, I am reluctant to give him a good hiding when I am on him - I know it would trigger an explosion that frankly I don't think I would be able to stay on. Any time he has resisted, it has always ended with me getting my way, though it may take a while. But Paddi22's idea of a tough old school rider is very tempting, I'm just not sure I could have it on my concience, even if I knew someone who would take him on.
He has hunted, but isn't that great at standing around, and the excess adrenaline/ not being allowed to go tends to result in going upwards, even if you try and walk him round.
Batgirl - definitely food for thought about the intermittent pain. Genuine question - if someone strongly palpates your sore back, would that trigger a pain response? I get what you're saying about holding yourself to protect it, but if someone MADE you flex / twist and lifted your legs etc then made you run, would that set it off? I am trying work out if I could test him for this, beyond the tests the vet has already done.

He is out 24/7, on a very low grain diet, and I have now removed the few oats he was having. He has never had an ulcer - risk lifestyle, unlike PS's horses before she got them ( he has never had high grain diet, had always had a minimum of 12 hour turn out in the winter, 24 in summer ), but I will look into a protexin acid ease trial.

I am going to do more ground work until the saddler has been, trying my best to annoy him by making him work in strange places with and without a companion. I am going to make sure he will go smartly fowards from my signal, and perhaps polish up his reverse, when I want it not when he does, and also his lateral work. He did LOADS of longreining when being backed, but mostly around lanes and tracks and villages. This time it's going to be on circles!

Borntobeaprincess-Spurs! I understand the reasoning, just not sure I am brave enough to try! It would be great if they did work to unplant him- as I said, that is always the precursor. Not every planting ends in a flip, but each flip has started by planting, so a calm but effective way out of that would help. I just don't know how he would react!

Many thanks for all your comments and advice and experience. HHO to the rescue again.

If I can't get anywhere with him, PS, do you want another (very, very) cheap horse. ;)
 
I fractured my spine nearly 2 years ago and am now disabled because of it. I have a times been fit enough for 5 hours hill walking with only the odd ache while I was doing it, but I did very occasionally get horrific and debilitating very temporary pain. Right now I'm crippled but thats another story! When I was fit and well 99% of the time I had no problem at all. You can palpate my back as hard and as much as you like and there is absolutely no pain there. You can also manipulate my legs etc about and nothing. The pain is off the scale in intenstiy, but as little as 30 seconds sitting down and its gone for a little while, even when its at its worst. My problem is damaged vertebrae, discs and nerves so there is no muscular pain at all.
 
Could you try hiring an arena/school to see how he behaves in there? That might give you an insight into whether it's behavioural or something more.
 
FrankieCob said:
I fractured my spine nearly 2 years ago and am now disabled because of it. I have a times been fit enough for 5 hours hill walking with only the odd ache while I was doing it, but I did very occasionally get horrific and debilitating very temporary pain. Right now I'm crippled but thats another story! When I was fit and well 99% of the time I had no problem at all. You can palpate my back as hard and as much as you like and there is absolutely no pain there. You can also manipulate my legs etc about and nothing. The pain is off the scale in intenstiy, but as little as 30 seconds sitting down and its gone for a little while, even when its at its worst. My problem is damaged vertebrae, discs and nerves so there is no muscular pain at all.
Click to expand...

I'm so glad you wrote this (not so glad you had the injury which sounds horrible!). So many people seem to say "oh the vet/back person/farrier/dentist/saddle fitter has checked him and he's fine!" - but even human doctors can hardly ever see "pain", they are dependent on us to tell them when and where we hurt. We seem very keen to dismiss any communication from our horses as them trying to get out of work or trying to take control. What does a horse actually have to do for us to take their communication seriously?
 
I've even had a couple of MRI scans, laying down, which show nothing more than mild osteoarthritis and some other little bits and pieces, which I clearly do have as I have some very minor stiffness when I first get up sometimes. There is nothing to explain the crippling pain I get. Doesnt mean it isnt happening though! And its taken me from the 5 hours of hill walking to putting on 4 stone and not being able to walk more than a 100yds as I avoid any sort of exercise to avoid the pain!

The other interesting thing is that when I'm slim and very fit, there isnt really any pain. I have just got caught in a vicious circle :( I went back to work full time and couldnt manage the hours of walking I needed to do to stay "sound" and it happened very quickly . It does explain how some horses who have intensive rehab and are kept in hard work cope with things they shouldnt techincally be able to though!
 
paddi22 said:
i had a flipper who passed vet checks etc. it was only when he got a proper xray of his back that his issues showed - he was perfect saddling up and moved perfectly. His reactions would come out of the blue though, there was no pattern. I was sitting on him while his head was down taking a break grazing for a second, and then he'd just go up vertical for no reason. once his back was treated the extreme behaviour stopped.

If he was mine (and pain was definitely ruled out) as a last ditch attempt i'd be tempted to send him to a tougher, old school rider or a hunting yard. Somewhere where a rider would completely put it back up to him when he misbehaves. the patient approach doesn't seem to have worked and if you think he is just being a pig then i'd be curious to see would a harder, more argumentative rider sort him out a bit?
Click to expand...

Brilliant advice.
 
Cragrat said:
Batgirl - definitely food for thought about the intermittent pain. Genuine question - if someone strongly palpates your sore back, would that trigger a pain response? I get what you're saying about holding yourself to protect it, but if someone MADE you flex / twist and lifted your legs etc then made you run, would that set it off? I am trying work out if I could test him for this, beyond the tests the vet has already done.
Click to expand...

No palpation would bring it out as it is nerve related, manipulation (i.e. moving the joint) can bring it out but that is hit and miss. It may be worth trying some reflex work (getting him to raise and lower the spine so as to mobilise the joints in the spine) This is unlikely to be conclusive though. Sorry I can't be more help!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top