F1 crosses Trakehners specifically

[LindaW]

I'm musing, and wonder what other people think

I already plan to have my new mare covered by Htobago in the future, maybe next year. I'm intrigued with the thought of bringing in new blood to the breed, and think that the resulting foals could be very interesting for breeding (obviously subject to stallion getting the thumbs up from the TBF/verband). I think a lot of him and that he has the potential to add to the breed. (JMO)

Now my mare is Charly Chaplin x Kiebitz x Matador so has reasonably interesting bloodlines anyway.

How many people shy away from using outside blood themselves? Do you wait for the resulting progeny? Or are you just not interested at all? I'm liking the thought of using the best I can, with the best I can find. What do you consider a good outcross?

Debate?

 

[Damien]

It' a very interesting topic, the arab blood has been used succesffully in Fiesian breeding by some enthusiasts to lighten and refine but they try to outcross it so that the arab blood is reduced to a smaller percentage. This has been done to add stamina to lighten the frame and refine the head.

The same has been done with sports ponies on the continent with many using the Russian lines but breeders are finding the most pleasing results are often not the first generations but the third fourth and so on.

So generally the use of arab blood as it has been done for many years has proven that it is something that defintely works but that the desirable result may take a few years to acheive.

Many outcrosses have worked very well, the Gelders and TP horses for example seem to cross very well in some cases with the modern sport horses of today and we see this two three generations of many of the Dutch sport horses when we look at their pedigrees.

In relation to sport horse breeing some however are inevitably going to take the stance of why spend time reinventing the wheel as the ultimate goal has already been acheived. The progenitors of high blood are already availible in the modern sport horse gene pools, so is it not a quicker route to use those that have already proven themselves?

 

[htobago]

Very good points Opie, as always!

I do see what you mean about using existing modern high-blood horses rather than 'starting again from scratch', as it were.

But the 'hot' blood in question is mostly TB, not Arab (at least in the case of WB horses as opposed to ponies), so I think maybe that specifically using Arab blood would not be re-inventing the wheel, but perhaps adding something new?

The other thing is that Arab breeding has not just stood still over the years, and recently the increased blending of international lines has produced some particularly good results - and this 'new' Arab blood could perhaps be a valuable addition?

I have been told that the Arab/WB cross is increasingly popular in the US - as an alternative to crossing back to the TB. The Arab cross gives much better movement for dressage, they say - although of course one has to use the right Arabs, ideally those with the big, elevated 'Russian' movement (like Tobago!).

And I suppose adventurous breeders will always want to experiment a bit in their efforts to produce perfection!

 

[argyle]

A few of my Hanoverians and Oldenburgs have at leat Anglo Arabs in their pedigrees. I think all breeders are looking for interesting combinations to make the best horse they possibly can for their chosen end. So surely this is just an extension of this principle? Sorry that wasn't very Trakehner specific was it!

As an aside any of mine that have Trakehners in their pedigrees have been passported as something else, KWPN, Oldenburg etc is this because the Trakeners approve less stallions graded by other stubooks? Just curious as I don't know too much about them.

 

[LindaW]

Opie, can I just ask about your last paragraph?

Is it reinventing the wheel really? Do we already have the ultimate sports horse and do trakehners with the closed book have enough different blood in there to continually improve the breed every generation? Or do they need (as I think all WB books do) a splash of hot blood every now and then to keep refining and improving? Is it a myth, that the type doesn't set, but becomes heavier over generations? I'm interested that the Trakehner book allows for carefully selected TB,AA and Arab blood. Of course the relevant words there are carefully selected, but nevertheless, they allow them.

I just wonder about the people who introduce the blood.

 

[volatis]

With regard to Trakehners I think as they are a closed stud book in many ways, and a small stud book, that the verband are still keen for blood to be introduced to keep the gene pool from getting too small

I know blood horses (and that does tend to be TBs) are used in all warmblood breeds to give a better definition of frame and an improvement in walk and canter. But breeders also have to guard against loss of size, and losing cadence in the trot and have the right temperament/trainability for a riding horse.
I think with arabs you need to ensure it is an arab with a good croup and good free shoulders but you will be adding beauty and senstivity and quite possibly intelligence. But as the modern warmblood is a lighter stamp than it was 50/60 years ago I think there is less demand for that arabian improvement on the heavier mare. An arab that is a good riding horse type I do like to see in a pedigree and I would be prepared to try and breed an F1 filly to then use on a Trakehner stallion to have the right element of arab blood in the pedigree.

 

[toffeesmarty]

I'm waiting patiently (not really) for my p/b Trak (Vatout x TB (USA) to produce her Fairlyn Gemini (PBA) foal I read this thread with interest as I've looked at the issue from a slightly different viewpoint.
When considering which stallion my initial aim was to go for a purebred Trak for her to up the Trak blood to 3/4 in the foal. However, I also had very specific things in mind which I had to consider as the foal will ultimately be for my 10 year old daughter to ride when she is her teens. Toffee has a lot of bone and is 16.1 so I wanted a sire that is finer and no higher than she is.Also as she has had sacro-illiac problem I also wanted to know the progeny have been fit and successful in multiple disciplines. I searched through the European stud books and also considered UK stallions but found that the registered Trak stallions were either too big, had too much bone or weren't old enough to have any 'history'. Hence choosing Gemini. I'm now waiting to make see if I've done the right thing! (Thanks for your comments when I sent my first post which were reassuring as this is my first foal!). Basically I'm pleased that the TF have allowed some new blood in as I needed a smaller lighter boned horse than fits the average Trak stallion type. However I believe in the breed and hope that as time goes on a finer type of Trak stallion will emerge.When and if the time comes again to put her back in foal I will revisit Trak stalions and as my daughters will be older by then I hope to be able to consider a full Trak stallion.
Could I add something to the debate? I have several societys I'll be able to reg the foal with as it has two sets of p/b papers to choose from: Trak Frat and Arab Society. To help make up my mind I contacted TF and was told they now have a number of mares and geldings which although having no Trak blood in them at all are choosing p/b Trakehener registration. My foal will be 1/4 Trak so am thinking of the TF option what are your thoughts on this?

 

[volatis]

Your pb trakehner foal will be eligible for preliminary register papers as it contains Trakehner, Thoroughbred and arab blood only. If your mare is eligible for grading (Terry Hyde is the man to ask - TBF registrar) and you present her in September and she passes, then the foal is eligible for pink papers as a full Trakehner as Gemini is fully approved for breeding.

 

[toffeesmarty]

Thanks very much Volatis. I have spoken to Terry and he was very helpful as I wanted to know which society to choose for the foals main passport. After talking I've decided on Trak F rather than Arab Society. I will look into grading Toffee once the foaling bit is over. When I can work out how, I'll post some pics of her- before pregnancy and now.