Faecal transformation

SpottedCat

SpottedCat

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Also shoved in breeding as it is used for foals with scour apparently.

I have a horse who has persistent bad diarrhea. Nothing touches it, things we have tried include:
*Biotal Equine Gold (pre/probiotic)
*Protexin (the syringes and the gut balancer - again pre/probiotic)
*Fed topspec balancer (which has pre/pro in it)
*Tuff rock foal plus
*A N other powder from the vets which is like tuff rock apparently
*Steroids (on week 8 now, worked slightly for 2 weeks, now back to how he was before we started)

The only thing my vet has left to try is faecal transformation (for those who don't know, you take the dung of a normal horse, blend it and blow it into the stomach of the abnormal horse for 5 days to try and establish normal fermentation patterns). Horse def has abnormal fermentation going on as it all smells and looks like cow dung.

I am concerned about FT because there is a risk of salmonella poisoning - normally you use dung from a horse which has been turned out with the one to be treated, and which hasn't been out away from the yard for more than hacking etc etc - my horse is not turned out with others, so I perceive him to be at greater risk. Insurance has run out (this is related to his gastric ulcers), so anything we do I have to pay for - and that includes any treatment if he develops an infection.

Has anyone had/done/seen this procedure, and what were your experiences? I am hoping some people who've worked on studs for aeons may remember this being done to foals with scour and can give me an idea of the success rate.

We've run out of ideas and frankly I am sick of everything I own being covered in sh1t if it comes within 10ft of said horse. However, if this doesn't have an extremely good success rate then I am not prepared to take the risk with my horse's health and my bank balance - he seems perfectly happy and well in himself aside from this, is holding weight fine, competing fine etc.

Any other suggestions gratefully received too - although no, I won't pay money to an animal communicator, buy any more damn pre/pro biotics, or try any other esoteric random things which part me from yet more cash with no guarantee of a result. What I have done is talked to someone who deals with herbs and he assures me the herbs will fix this - fine, all drugs have a herbal basis anyway so willing to give that a shot, but it is seriously the last resort before FT unless anyone has any better ideas.
 
sorry i can't help, but all i can say is OMG ................ not good for you or gg..........

Has your vet establish why and when this has developed, so at least if FT works you could manage in future

I do hope you get an answer and a postive result
 
We are pretty sure we know what caused it (been going on since last December) - the antibiotics which he had to have to cure the god-damn ulcers. So the risk of it recurring if we ever manage to fix it is low to nil I'd say. He had developed IBD too, but the steroids have fixed that (as shown on ultrasound).

I cannot tell you how sick and tired I am of this - this morning I was stood about 6ft away from him - ended up with foul smelling stuff on my shoulder. Lovely. TBH it must be pretty horrible for him too, horses are not meant to be able to defecate through the eye of a needle! I am currently forking out £44 every 8 days for steroids which are not working, I dread to think what it is doing to the floor of my lorry, and as for 'picking up poo in the school' - don't make me laugh!
 
Hmmm, I might be barking up the wrong tree entirely, but have you tried Codeine? Oofa was very ill 2 years ago and had terrible diarrhea, and the vet prescribed codeine for him. It was very cheap at £7 I think for 32 tablets which lasted 4 days. I know he had something which caused the diarrhea but do you think it might be worth a try to somehow break the cycle?
 
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bloody hell!!!

i only thing i can possible suggest and i'm ain't into 'mum bo jumbo' i like proven DRUGS and proper papers etc... but this could help ia an Aloe Vera drink??

But i totally understand you could see it as throwing more dosh down drain, but i have 1 human (very bad stomach issues) and 1 equine (with ulcers) who have do very well on it.

If you want more detai,l i'll pm you

Other than that...................... O BU**ER which is no help, but HHO good vibes winging your way..........
 
KO - sorry, aloe vera should have been on the 'already tried' list
frown.gif
Been there, done that, no impact at all. At least Holland and Barratt were selling it for peanuts!!

Oofa - yes, we have tried Codeine too, that also should have been on the list. The A N Other powder is biosponge just for the record!

Sorry people, kept leaving things off the list because there are just so many we have tried
frown.gif
ETA the codeine was one of the first things we tried at the end of 2008, hence I forgot it. It is on my vets bill just after the TuffRock and at the same time as the biosponge half way through Dec 08.
 
I've heard of this being done in Argentina. Someone said it was 'Actimel for horses' (Ick) In fact a vet suggested it when PF came over from England and dropped quite a lot of weight for no apparent reason. I was still in England and asked my vet over there about it, and she said it was a bit primitive and wasn't done much any more but it wasn't unheard of. Apparently the 'donor' horse has be chosen quite carefully; you know, properly wormed, in good health etc. I'd give it a shot TBH. I've seen more bizarre things than that work over here.
PS; In the end didn't try it on PF as she picked up by herself
smile.gif
 
i want to say OOOOOOOOOOOO s**t, but totally wrong thing to say...............

Have vets given you a figure on sucess rate for FT or are they guess??? Are there any research papers you could read or as i think you've been blashing thos keys into "Google and Yahoo"
 
No research papers as it is such an old fashioned thing to do! Vets are clutching at straws, this is literally a last resort, I don't think they have any idea about whether it will work or not
frown.gif


PF that's helpful thanks - it would be a horse on current yard and all seem in good health - you normally have the option to pay for the dung to be tested for salmonella, which would be fine except all horses bar mine are out in a group so as you have to test for a certain number of days prior to the transformation, this is a logistical nightmare since everything is still out 24/7 and there is no way of knowing which horse does which poo! This is my major concern TBH - that and the fact that 5 days of hospitalisation will cost me a small fortune.
 
It's actually transfaunation; some results come up if you google it but nothing terribly scientific. The risks are fairly minimal, but it's not a proven method of treating diarrhoea, although as a low cost last ditch attempt it's probably worth considering.

It's actually done fairly routinely in cows but they digest their food in their rumens, so it's easy to put the good bacteria etc where they need to go. Horses are hindgut digesters so getting the bugs where you want them is more difficult as they are likely to get broken down before they reach the caecum.

It's still used in foals with gut upsets to try to re-establish intestinal fauna, and it's actually normal for foals to transfaunate themselves by eating faeces during the first few weeks of life.

Even if referral is not an option I would ask your vet to speak to a medical specialist regarding your horse as they are usually quite happy to provide advice.
 
Haven't a clue about the process, but would it be possible to pick your host horse from your yard, and put it in either in the same field as yours for a few days/weeks or on it own so you can do the testing or at least make it easier to identify the correct poo - probably be the solid one when I think about it
 
That makes more sense! Had not seen it written down, but transfaunation does describe what they are trying to achieve a bit better.

My vets is an extremely well known referral practice, so I suspect they are the medical specialists who would be gone to for advice...
 
Have you tried Yea-sacc? Live yeast, not too expensive, you'll know in a day or two if it works. You can buy it on eBay. HAS to be Yea-sacc and no other yeast, the others are dead and Yea-sacc is still alive, so it mutliplies inside the gut.

Another cheap option, live natural yoghurt from Tesco, a pint in each meal. I had a sick starved horse who's poo stank and it sorted him in a couple of days.

Good luck.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Haven't a clue about the process, but would it be possible to pick your host horse from your yard, and put it in either in the same field as yours for a few days/weeks or on it own so you can do the testing or at least make it easier to identify the correct poo - probably be the solid one when I think about it

[/ QUOTE ]

Theoretically, yes...practically, less easy - there is a good reason why mine is on his own, relating to his tendency to posture for all he is worth and then get the living daylights kicked out of him. He's also v grumpy looking (though has never done anything) and if people aren't confident he can be intimidating.

I agree, it is not an insurmountable problem though.
 
QR: Brewers yeast is simply a dead strain of Saccharomyces cerevisiae - which is v similar to what is in topspec and biotal equine gold (except biotal use the live stuff).

I guess natural yoghurt could work, but I am not convinced it will work where other pre/probiotics have failed.

In fact, having looked on line using faecal transfaunation, it turns out that notes from a US vet college indicate that this could go on for years and in fact doing nothing is the best course of action and the only reason vets treat is because it is so unpleasant for the owner. Fab.
 
[ QUOTE ]
QR: Brewers yeast is simply a dead strain of Saccharomyces cerevisiae - which is v similar to what is in topspec and biotal equine gold (except biotal use the live stuff).

I guess natural yoghurt could work, but I am not convinced it will work where other pre/probiotics have failed.

In fact, having looked on line using faecal transfaunation, it turns out that notes from a US vet college indicate that this could go on for years and in fact doing nothing is the best course of action and the only reason vets treat is because it is so unpleasant for the owner. Fab.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not convinced about the yoghurt either, but a vet told me to give it every time my horses have antibiotics, and it's so cheap and easy to get hold of that it probably can't hurt. There might just be something "bioavailable" in a milk based product that would do the trick.

Please let us know if you do find an answer.
 
Yes, you are right, it can't hurt. I tell you, if we do find an answer, I will be shouting it from the flipping rooftops! I have forgotten what a normal horse poo looks like
frown.gif
 
Is there the scope for your horse to be grazed alone but to follow on to paddocks after other horses have vacated them? Ideally I suppose a paddock that hasn't been too thoroughly poo picked, thereby achieving this faecal transfaunation by the most primitive and natural method?
 
M_H - he's out on fields which have indeed been grazed by other horses and neither poo-picked nor harrowed as yet. Two different fields whcih have had as a minimum 5 different horses on them. He has shown no inclination to go DIY on this!! Can't say I blame him....

BTW before someone mentions it, no, this is not a worm issue, he has been both worm counted and on an up to date chemical programme.
 
I was about to suggest bunging him up with some bran!
Sorry, not very helpful.

If it were a cow my OH would say just give it hay and nothing else to dry it up. I take it you've already tried the farmer method?

Sorry, just trying to think of anything. Having seen what he's like I really do feel for you!
 
What a nightmare. My firend has a foal that has been scouring since she was a month old. She is now 5 months old. She is otherwise healhty and fit, has been treated with Gastroguard and a Kaolin and Morphine type mixture and the vet has said it is now just a time thing.
Sorry, no help at all but sympathy for you and I'll be watching closely for a possible solution
 
As has no feed/just hay etc. Taking him off grass entirely had no effect either - and was only tried because of the snow last winter as he has had the ulcer issues and hates being stabled therefore has as much turnout as possible (am v fortunate as they are still out 24/7 at current yard). He has mollichaff high fibre in his diet which has straw in it, so you'd think if a bulking agent were needed that would be helping too wouldn't you? (genuine question, it is my assumption).
 
QR LOL, yes, we started with the simple ones to do, then moved on to the more wierd and wonderful things such as steroids. I should probably have added in the bran/hay only/no grass ones but TBH I am beginning to lose track myself (can't imagine why!).

Oofadoofa - when you saw him he was slightly improved. Since then he has gone right back to square one and it is even more liquid. Nice.
 
[ QUOTE ]
It's actually transfaunation; some results come up if you google it but nothing terribly scientific. The risks are fairly minimal, but it's not a proven method of treating diarrhoea, although as a low cost last ditch attempt it's probably worth considering.

It's actually done fairly routinely in cows but they digest their food in their rumens, so it's easy to put the good bacteria etc where they need to go. Horses are hindgut digesters so getting the bugs where you want them is more difficult as they are likely to get broken down before they reach the caecum.

It's still used in foals with gut upsets to try to re-establish intestinal fauna, and it's actually normal for foals to transfaunate themselves by eating faeces during the first few weeks of life.

Even if referral is not an option I would ask your vet to speak to a medical specialist regarding your horse as they are usually quite happy to provide advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Done routinely on cows? Really?

In the 65 years my father in law has lived and worked on our dairy farm he has never seen it done once....or even herd of it!
smirk.gif
 
QR- Bran fed dry has been shown not to affect faecal water content.

Have you tried slippery elm or marshmallow root? Both are herbs that can help soothe the digestive system and can be effective in horses with diarrhoea. As you have tried everything else they might be worth considering
 
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