Failed DSP resection surgery??? - Advice Needed!!

[ChasingUnicorns]

Hello! I'm feeling at a bit of a loss at the moment and was hoping to have some real life stories from people who have been in my position!

So a bit of background info:
I purchased a 7yo 16hh Dutch warmblood a year ago for SJ/XC/BE. He worked beautifully for the first few months of having him showing a lot of potential, he threw an occasional buck when transitioning into canter on a hack but that was all so didn't think too much into it. One day out of the blue he went into a mad bucking fit in the school. Got the vet out and did x-rays ASAP and found out he had undergone DSP resection surgery prior to me purchasing him. We trialled a variety of tx options including the steroid injections, nothing helped. My vet told me to cut my losses.

Now, he's been in the field for 8 months and I recently moved him to a retirement paddock, but as I was grooming him and sorting his belongings out I felt as though I was just giving up too soon and feel as though he is going to waste if I don't try something else.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this, turned them away for a few months to a year and started again with a different approach or tried something new? I'm really looking for some encouragement that there could be potential for this to work out for both of us? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanksss

 

[Melody Grey]

It depends in what way you think the KS surgery has failed- have the wrong/not enough vertebrae been resected? Have the remaining vertebrae collapsed? Is there another issue at play?

in my experience, KS is never a standalone condition- have hocks, hind suspensories, sacro iliac been ruled out? My guess is that they only did the KS and stopped looking- happened to me with my last horse.
Good luck- I hope you can work with it!

 

[ycbm]

in my experience, KS is never a standalone condition-

It can be if they are born with it and some are, as the surgeon told me mine was. I get the impression this is more likely if they are behind the saddle, as mine was, than under it, but I don't know about that.

CU I'm sorry but because of the nature of the ligament cutting operation (I think that's what DSP resection is?) you now have a horse with an unstable spine who has told you he's unhappy about that. I wouldn't be trying to bring him back into work if he was mine. I do tend to give up more easily than other people, though, so somebody could be more encouraging soon.
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[sbloom]

I can only talk theory, this is not advice. KS is very complex, yes it can have a heritable aspect, but there are thought to be many triggers, and that's because it's basically because they're not designed to carry us and anything that causes a compensatory movement pattern (asymmetry, massively on the forehand etc) will cause problems. A very common pattern is KS, hocks, suspensories and SI. Very few horses would be so unlucky as to have all of them, but many have 2 or 3, and I personally don't think that they magically get one condition and it causes the others, it's that they're all symptoms of these compensatory movement patterns, and topline syndrome.

There are a couple of great topline syndrome webinars on Equitopia which you can join for a small monthly fee and I think you can cancel at any time. I would start there to see what can be done, in many cases, to help these horses from the ground. Some may be "fixed" to the extent they can be ridden, others maybe not, but I see the change in horses that have good groundwork. We MUST lift the thoracic sling if they're to carry a rider's weight well, and even a traumatic birth, if unaddressed, can mean the sling mechanism doesn't develop in the way that would help ridden work and at some point it will "bite" in the form of this type of injury.

I do agree that the snip has some evidence that it leads to long term instability, but doing this kind of work, if not contraindicated (not come across a case yet where it has been) is likely to help with stability and long term health even if the horse can no longer be ridden.

 

[Melody Grey]

It can be if they are born with it and some are, as the surgeon told me mine was. I get the impression this is more likely if they are behind the saddle, as mine was, than under it, but I don't know about that.

CU I'm sorry but because of the nature of the ligament cutting operation (I think that's what DSP resection is?) you now have a horse with an unstable spine who has told you he's unhappy about that. I wouldn't be trying to bring him back into work if he was mine. I do tend to give up more easily than other people, though, so somebody could be more encouraging soon.
.

I thought DSP was dorsal spinal process resection (cutting away the processes) rather than the ligament snip....but happy to be corrected.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

It can be if they are born with it and some are, as the surgeon told me mine was. I get the impression this is more likely if they are behind the saddle, as mine was, than under it, but I don't know about that.

CU I'm sorry but because of the nature of the ligament cutting operation (I think that's what DSP resection is?) you now have a horse with an unstable spine who has told you he's unhappy about that. I wouldn't be trying to bring him back into work if he was mine. I do tend to give up more easily than other people, though, so somebody could be more encouraging soon.
.

That's interesting, actually. I wonder how many are born with it vs how many develop it ? my previous horse had KS, also behind the saddle. Due to a few other things it appeared that he was either in some sort of accident, or born a bit wonky. He was also only in light work before I bought him, and not so old, so the KS might've predated his riding career.

 

[ChasingUnicorns]

It depends in what way you think the KS surgery has failed- have the wrong/not enough vertebrae been resected? Have the remaining vertebrae collapsed? Is there another issue at play?

in my experience, KS is never a standalone condition- have hocks, hind suspensories, sacro iliac been ruled out? My guess is that they only did the KS and stopped looking- happened to me with my last horse.
Good luck- I hope you can work with it!

The reason I titled it as "failed" is because this is how my orthopaedic vet describes it in his written report. He obviously had KS and therefore had the corrective surgery for it which has not relieved pain/inflammation of his back when in ridden work. I didn't know the horse at a time prior to surgery so wouldn't be able to say whether it's had any positive impact on him but it wasn't curative as far as his back is concerned

 

[ChasingUnicorns]

It can be if they are born with it and some are, as the surgeon told me mine was. I get the impression this is more likely if they are behind the saddle, as mine was, than under it, but I don't know about that.

CU I'm sorry but because of the nature of the ligament cutting operation (I think that's what DSP resection is?) you now have a horse with an unstable spine who has told you he's unhappy about that. I wouldn't be trying to bring him back into work if he was mine. I do tend to give up more easily than other people, though, so somebody could be more encouraging soon.
.

DSP resection is a surgical resection of the dorsal spinous processes (the bony projections along the spine). He has had 3 of these processes completely shaved down to stop them from touching/rubbing.

 

[Melody Grey]

The reason I titled it as "failed" is because this is how my orthopaedic vet describes it in his written report. He obviously had KS and therefore had the corrective surgery for it which has not relieved pain/inflammation of his back when in ridden work. I didn't know the horse at a time prior to surgery so wouldn't be able to say whether it's had any positive impact on him but it wasn't curative as far as his back is concerned

Have the processes been reshaped? Presumably this is how you can see it clearly on X-ray?

has your vet suggested going back to work-up stage? Presumably they could re nerve block the back and look for improvement or look at other sites if this doesn’t yield a result?

ETA: looking at other sites in the back/ hocks etc.

 

[ChasingUnicorns]

Have the processes been reshaped? Presumably this is how you can see it clearly on X-ray?

has your vet suggested going back to work-up stage? Presumably they could re nerve block the back and look for improvement or look at other sites if this doesn’t yield a result?

ETA: looking at other sites in the back/ hocks etc.

My vet literally told me: cut your losses, either PTS or retire him

Which I was surprised about as he is a very well know, professional and established orthopaedic vet. So I don't know whether to take this as there really is no hope or it's just easier to buy a new one...

 

[ChasingUnicorns]

Have the processes been reshaped? Presumably this is how you can see it clearly on X-ray?

has your vet suggested going back to work-up stage? Presumably they could re nerve block the back and look for improvement or look at other sites if this doesn’t yield a result?

ETA: looking at other sites in the back/ hocks etc.

Oh and instead of being reshaped the top half of the process has been taken clean off, on 3 processes

 

[sbloom]

Again, this it not a specific comment on your vet or your situation, but it isn't uncommon to find that vets work in a completely different paradigm to true in hand rehabbers. They don't "see" these compensatory movement patterns and the extent to which they can be improved or even eliminated. They see the body in terms of bits that need fixing, and don't use the tensegrity type model which shows how clearly everything is linked. Have a look at these really useful Facebook posts/pages:

https://www.facebook.com/tami.elkayam.9 - bodyworker in the US

https://www.facebook.com/josephaguillaume/posts/623052385775772

- her page is super interesting too

https://www.facebook.com/drgilliantaborphysio - she has online programmes with FB group support

I work with a brilliant rehabber in Warwickshire too, he just doesn't have much up online - Dan Wain Equestrian.

Tom Beech is The Osteopathic Vet and would be a good place to start if you wanted a second opinion.

 

[Melody Grey]

Oh and instead of being reshaped the top half of the process has been taken clean off, on 3 processes

All the experiences I’ve had have been with the processes cut at a diagonal angle. I’ve never heard of removing the whole of the top of the process and I wonder how this would compare in terms of stability of the spine/ surrounding tissue. I wonder if the horse is from abroad and this is a procedure that’s done on the continent? Did your vet comment on this? Might it be worth researching long term prospects of this specific surgical approach if there is any?
It could be that another site has been medicated prior to your ownership of him and the effects of this have now worn off- seems consistent with having a few good months of work and then having broken down. Do you have any way of tracing history? The surgery and any associated treatment really should have been declared, though it sounds like you may have had him for too long for any recourse from whoever you bought him from? A rubbish situation, but background might help.

 

[ChasingUnicorns]

All the experiences I’ve had have been with the processes cut at a diagonal angle. I’ve never heard of removing the whole of the top of the process and I wonder how this would compare in terms of stability of the spine/ surrounding tissue. I wonder if the horse is from abroad and this is a procedure that’s done on the continent? Did your vet comment on this? Might it be worth researching long term prospects of this specific surgical approach if there is any?
It could be that another site has been medicated prior to your ownership of him and the effects of this have now worn off- seems consistent with having a few good months of work and then having broken down. Do you have any way of tracing history? The surgery and any associated treatment really should have been declared, though it sounds like you may have had him for too long for any recourse from whoever you bought him from? A rubbish situation, but background might help.

I believe he had the surgery in Ireland, but the vet didn't seem too shocked by his x-rays. I have since been in touch with the owner and she claims to have had no knowledge of this whatsoever, which if that is true, would suggest he wasn't medicated in the time she had him. Just overall a terrible situation for both me and the horse!!

 

[Melody Grey]

I believe he had the surgery in Ireland, but the vet didn't seem too shocked by his x-rays. I have since been in touch with the owner and she claims to have had no knowledge of this whatsoever, which if that is true, would suggest he wasn't medicated in the time she had him. Just overall a terrible situation for both me and the horse!!

Is the horse ‘known’ with a competition record? Might be worth seeing if you can find more info through Facebook groups? Might just be a case of working with the horse infront of you though.

 

[ycbm]

It sounds as if you were unlucky, with an operation of that level, that the scars didn't alert either you or his previous owner to what you were buying. The ligament desmotomy scars are tiny and didn't show at all on mine after a few weeks.

Regarding "born or made" the surgeon who did mine said he sees horses at the age groups. 3-4 where they won't tolerate backing and many will have been born with them, 7-8 as the adult workload ramps up and begins to affect the horse, which has either developed them or was born with them. And 12-13 when longer term work has caused them.

They found some genes recently and if I recollect properly they were linked, surprise, surprise with being for a shorter back.
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[CanteringCarrot]

It sounds as if you were unlucky, with an operation of that level, that the scars didn't alert either you or his previous owner to what you were buying. The ligament desmotomy scars are tiny and didn't show at all on mine after a few weeks.

Regarding "born or made" the surgeon who did mine said he sees horses at the age groups. 3-4 where they won't tolerate backing and many will have been born with them, 7-8 as the adult workload ramps up and begins to affect the horse, which has either developed them or was born with them. And 12-13 when longer term work has caused them.

They found some genes recently and if I recollect properly they were linked, surprise, surprise with being for a shorter back.
.

Going off on a tangent once again, sorry OP!

Most that I have known with KS haven't been soo short backed, but not incredibly long either.

If KS is linked to having a shorter back, wouldn't it be more prevalent in Iberian breeds? Just thinking about this because my PRE has a very short back (shoulders and then hip...not much inbetween), and so do many other Iberians as well as other natives and/or pony types. Or is it that they don't have the gene? Being short backed doesn't automatically = KS, I know, but if it is more common in short backed horses, you'd think you'd see it much more in the types that I mentioned? I am intrigued by this being linked to a gene, and might search the depths of the internet and see what I can find...later, when I have time.

 

[ycbm]

I see what seems to be to be a huge proportion of Iberians standing under, as if they are protecting their backs, CC. Horses are so darned stoic, I'd love to see more research into "asymptomatic" horses.

It stands to reason to me that if you have the same number of DSPs of a similar length and bulk in a smaller space, you're going to get more kissing spines. But we need the research.
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