FAO 'PrimaMajor'

S

Shilasdair

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I have some questions/points about 'French rescue' organisations, if you're game?
1. What is the issue with slaughter of horses - no horse lives forever, and if the slaughter is undertaken by humane methods, then why are people like Shannonbaby concerned?
2. Do you intend to abolish slaughter - if so, look at the problems this policy has caused in the US?
3. Is the problem the transport of horses to slaughterhouses? If so, how can importing a few of them (600ish in the case of RRR) to the UK be an improvement for the other 22 000 odd horses?
4. To buy these horses, well meaning people have to pay more than the meat price. This gives funds to the farmers who have the horses most needing rescued, enabling them to invest in more meat horse breeding, thus increasing the problem.
5. Who decides the price of the horses - and why are sites like RRR apparently intending to give the impression that they are charities, but without being registered with the Charities Commission?
6. Before transporting a horse from France to the UK, what health checks/vettings are done to ensure they are free from disease and fit to travel?
7. Once entering the UK, what efforts are made to quarantine these animals to prevent the spread of disease to UK equidae?
8. What efforts are made to ensure these animals are only rehomed to knowledgeable and capable homes, and not quickly resold, possibly to be shipped to France for meat?
9. Why are efforts not being made to improve the methods of transportation of EU horses for slaughter (see WHW website) rather than financially support the farmers whose animals are least well cared for prior to slaughter?

I really do hope you answer my (lengthy, sorry) post.
Thanks
S
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PS Apologies for repost - this got lost in Shannonbaby thread.
 
Quote from PrimaMajor from Shannonbaby's thread.

[ QUOTE ]

Okay, I can only speak for myself, I do not run any of the sites so I can't talk for them personally.

1. I dont have an issue with the slaughtering of horses at all. If it is done in humane and acceptable conditions. But I do feel we all have a responsibility to ANY animal that is farmed for meat to ensure suffering is minimised and slaughtering conditions are acceptable.
2. I have no intentions to abolish horse slaughter and never have.
3. Yes, the problem is the transportation, and I agree it will not immediately rectify the transportation problem, however, I don't agree with bringing in and selling on. I do the best that I can be for my rescue without being a fortune teller and that goes for my other horses too.
4.Sticky one too because the way I see it, it is the demand that is the problem. It wouldn't matter if these horses died before transportation, they would still be replaced. It is the demand for meat that is the overriding problem. We need to stop the transportation.
5. The Farmer decides the prices of the animals per kilo if I understand rightly, sometimes there is negotiation, the prices of mares in foal and of foals can be more at times because the demand is more for younger flesh and skins.
6.There is a vetting done to ensure that the horses are showing no signs of illness, disability etc before transportation. My horse was vetted and had HARAS passport. I can't answer you on things that have happened of recent or previously because a. I am not the transporter and b. I don't run the sites I can only say what I have experienced if you understand.
7. I took on my own responsibility for my own horse because I have my own land. My import was quarantined for a month in her own paddock whilst getting a vetting, vaccinations etc. That was my responsibility, she is miles away from anyone elses equines and none of mine are transported.
8. This is a hard one for me because my mare is with me for life, if not I have a good friend who will take her in to a local charity if I my family were to disappear tomorrow along with my others. So I can't answer for anyone who does otherwise. My horses are provided and cared for, likewise my dogs and most importantly my children.
9.I have signed numerous petitions and I fully support WHW and have always supported the make a noise campaign.

I was drawn to the photo of my mare, that's all I can say. I love her to pieces. She is a good soul and I DO have the knowledge to to keep a rescued animal. I have done and do. Uk animals too.



[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your answers. We agree on many points;
1. Slaughter should be humane and efficient.
2. No plans to abolish UK or EU slaughterhouses.
3. The transportation methods are the problem currently.
4. The demand for meat horses dictates the supply (good old Neoclassical economics
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), and rescuing horses creates additional demand.
5. 'Rescuers' pay more for the meat animals than slaughterhouses.
6. Horses should be vetted prior to transportation whether for meat or for UK import (this appears not to be happening in all cases
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).
7. There are no controls on quarantine - inexperienced owners will be unaware of potential diseases.
8. There are no controls on the destination of the so-called rescue animals.
9. Solving the initial problem - of poor transportation methods, and shortened journeys to slaughter by increasing the number of abattoirs locally, are the answers.

Hope this sums it up.
Thanks for your reply. A final question - if you had the choice again, would you 'rescue' a French horse, or not?
S
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Thankyou for starting this thread Shils, hopefully we can now have a sensible discussion, as long as the jokers can keep quiet
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I think they are too entertained with the other thread.
I am still attempting to turn it from a slanging match into at least an argument, if not a debate. It's not going well
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PrimaMajor, are you still here?
If not, I don't know who is going to (rationally) argue against us!
 
I hope so, I would like PM to say what she believes (which all sounds sensible) and we can discuss everything rationally.
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[ QUOTE ]

8. This is a hard one for me because my mare is with me for life, if not I have a good friend who will take her in to a local charity if I my family were to disappear tomorrow along with my others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my goodness... does this mean that an English charity (and we all know they don't have enough English horses to help
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) would be expected to take on your mare should something happen to you? How very ironic.
 
That's a hard question, would I do it again? Truthfully, I don't honestly know. The same as I can say that I don't know if I could walk past a poor pony in a market here and not look twice but what I can say is that I again I don't believe in the multiple buying in and selling on. I only take on what I can. I would be an idiot to take on any more than I can cope with because they need fed, have unforeseen vets bills, hell, I might die, who knows.

There is something that was said on one of the threads earlier that I would like to clarify if someone would mind me giving them a PM. I will be ostracised for this but I don't think that poor colt with the deformed legs should have been saved, I agree he will have problems holding his weight, he WILL be a big boy. In my opinion it would have been kinder to put him to sleep. There we go.
 
Pardon me? And you presume I have done nothing to help any equines in this charity? Because I am astounded that you think I would use someone or a charity for my own benefit having never given anything??????? Bear in mind this is a rehoming and rehabilitation charity not a 'keep my french horse' at everyones expense charity. Keep in mind, I have helped clear up the mess other people in this country have made of their own equines, also bear in mind that I have held them while there is no hope and have had to be pts because of idiots. Also bear in mind I work in my own spare time, using my own fuel, and when I have looked after these ponies, I have paid vets bills myself, paid for the knacker man myself, paid for bute myself so that the charity doesn't have to fork it all out. Because I care thats all. Sorry if you think I am ironic and greedy.
 
Pardon me what exactly? You stated in YOUR post, that should something happen to you, your horse would be taken to an equine charity in the UK. I don't recall saying you're greedy, but I DO think acting as a 'rescue' and then expecting (in the event of your untimely demise, presumably) another charity to take over IS ironic. Isn't rescue for life? Your life or the horse's? Shouldn't you make some provision in your will for the care of the horse should something happen to you? If, on the other hand, you've made such an arrangement with a charity beforehand, then I apologise unreservedly.
 
A better, overall more reasoned debate. The bottom line is that rescuing french horses will just lead to more french horses needing to be rescued!! I can understand people feeling that they helped their one though (infection risks.....)Transportation is the issue, all have welfare at heart. Arguments not a million miles apart afterall.
 
I don't act as a rescue? I have foster ponies here who I keep and have kept at my expense for this rehabilitation charity, it is a charity designed for rescue or rehoming or rehabilitation. It has taken on ponies and horses before whose owners move, don't want them anymore, are neglected or abused. There are foster homes, waiting lists for homes for horses and ponies, in no way is this charity not capable of taking in and rehoming. Not all of mine belong to me they belong to this charity, I adopt them. Many people choose to gift their horses to charities if something unexpected should happen. That would only happen to mine if my family disappeared I said, if no-one could take any of my horses and the future was bleak I would have them pts. Am I bad person for trying to be responsible?
 
You do something valuable, as does anybody who rehabilitates horses and gives them the chance of a happy, comfortable future. The France debate is about a different issue.
 
I expect this thread will probably turn ugly now because i am here.
There has been some talk about Unique he has a name after all . He is the colt with the deformed front legs.
We thought long and hard about this little boy and in every stage of his rescue and journey home we had veterinary advice. He was seen by two vets in France, both of whom deemed him fit to travel and free of disease and infection. He was wormed and vaccinated in France along with his mother, as he has not actually been weaned from her yet. They were seen by the vet on the day they left France and they travelled together in a large double mare and foal box. They arrived here in Essex and came of the lorry quiet and unstressed . We gave them a few days to settle and yesterday Mark Sinnot from Pegasus Equine came out to look him over and x ray his knees.
His first observation was how mobile Unique is he can get around just as sprightly as his mother albeit not as normally. In Marks opinion Unique is in no pain or discomfort whatsoever. Unique thinks he is normal, he said that he is healthy and bright. The x rays showed that the knee bones have started to fuse so full normal bone alignment will not be possible. but with special stick on shoes and splints and bandages some correction should be made .
Vicky who made the decision to rescue Unique did so completely of her own volition, she wanted to bring him back to England to give him a chance in life. She is allowed to make decisions like that We at Reflex supported her decision and helped to source vets in France and here and to make sure the travelling conditions for Unique and his mum were acceptable to the vets.
Now Unique is here he will be looked after by Marks practise and treatment will be carried out to try and make Uniques gait easier.
Should Vicky have rescued Unique , I don,t know there are arguments for and against and everyone has their own thoughts and opinions I am sure,
For Vicky and Unique it was the right thing. She has no regrets and I respect and support her all the way with his progress. He did not ask to be different after all.
Thank you for reading this post I will log off now as this is my last post on this forum.
 
Unique - Cripple may have been a more apt name!!!

Unique.jpg


Whilst I'm cinical and doubt he is a pain free and mobile as you claim. His long term prognoises must be poor. He is going to grow into a big strapping chap (by the looks of it) which will put ever increasing strain/demands on both his deformed limb and the rest of his body as it attempts to compensate. I honestly think that saving him was mis-guided and you site encouraged it. TBH the funds used on him could probably have help at least 3 healthy/useful youngsters. I hope you are very proud.
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Reply regarding 'Unique'.
I think the point I would make here - is that if you have 2 UK horses, being rehomed by a charity such as WHW, at a cost of say £500 each, and who will live healthy lives, then surely it makes better sense in terms of both financial and horse welfare to rescue them instead of something which will never be right.
S
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[ QUOTE ]
Unique - Cripple may have been a more apt name!!!

Unique.jpg


Whilst I'm cinical and doubt he is a pain free and mobile as you claim. His long term prognoises must be poor. He is going to grow into a big strapping chap (by the looks of it) which will put ever increasing strain/demands on both his deformed limb and the rest of his body as it attempts to compensate. I honestly think that saving him was mis-guided and you site encouraged it. TBH the funds used on him could probably have help at least 3 healthy/useful youngsters. I hope you are very proud.
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[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at that photo, I can honestly say I'm disgusted that anyone would put that baby through a journey from France to the UK in that state. I don't understand why anyone would spend (what will probably amount to) £1000's to transport him, treat him and then keep him as a lawn ornament. I do understand that some people just like the stable management side of horses but why not buy something that is healthy and won't cost you a fortune in vet bills from the outset? Why not rescue something in the UK - there are enough poor looking babies in the lower end sales (think Beeston and the rest) to keep you going a lifetime if you want to "rescue" horses. Horses are not dogs or cats, and so are not that easy to look after. If all you want is a pet then just buy a dog, or re-home one from the Dogs Trust.

I've had a quick scan of the website in question and it's just emotive propoganda written by someone who clearly has another agenda. It is no different to preying on elderly people to get them to sign up for credit cards and the like - that site is preying on people who know no better. It is not a game, it is an animal's life you are playing with. Sorry but most of these animals should be PTS. But then that's what they were originally intended for isn't it...

I know people will think I am callous but breeding horses for meat in the continent is no different to the UK breeding sheep or cattle for meat. You wouldn't "rescue" a cow from the abbatoir, so why a horse? Live in the real world and stop letting sentiment and emotion rule your life. There are too many horses in the UK for hte charities to deal with, nevermind bringing hopeless cases over from the continent.
 
FAO PrimaMajor

I'd just like to reply to a couple of the points you raised. It's not an attack on you, but I do believe the wool is well and truly pulled over the eyes of people buying through these sites. I think you were probably lucky enough to acquire a horse that you were able to cope with, financially and experience wise.

[ QUOTE ]
4.Sticky one too because the way I see it, it is the demand that is the problem. It wouldn't matter if these horses died before transportation, they would still be replaced. It is the demand for meat that is the overriding problem. We need to stop the transportation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree the transportation needs to be stopped. But buying from these internet sites won't make a blind bit of difference. You are unlikely to be saving anything from a long journey, they will be going locally to the abattoir, if at all.
These animals on the French rescue sites are in dealing yards. Horses and ponies are kept on the dealing yards/farms en route to the abattoir. The dealers will collect unwanted/ill animals from the local area from their owners, and then organise them to go to the abattoir. They are there to make the farmer money. If they have a viable future, they are sold to French people. If not, they go to the abattoir. The dealers have cottoned onto the fact that there are English people who will pay more than meat money for these sorry animals, so they use someone to put the equines on the French sites.
The real meat horses never even get put on the internet. They are taken directly to the sales by their breeders, sold at the sales and collected by the commercial meat agents/transporters and then taken to the abattoirs, or to another farm where they are winter/summer fattened before they are slaughtered. Check out the Maurs Sales, for example.
France has an enormous network of local abattoirs that slaughter 23,000 horses for meat every year. 10,000 are exported, but not necessarily to Italy. There is a huge demand for horse meat in Belgium, for example. As far as the five day journey that was mentioned by the shannon poster, it is not a five day journey to Italy from France, it is less than 24 hours from some sales in the eastern regions.

[ QUOTE ]
5. The Farmer decides the prices of the animals per kilo if I understand rightly, sometimes there is negotiation, the prices of mares in foal and of foals can be more at times because the demand is more for younger flesh and skins..

[/ QUOTE ]

Light horses command a higher price than heavy horses. It is the abattoir governed by the market that dicates the price per kilo, not the farmer. He's just plucking a figure out of the air that he thinks gullible Brits will pay.

[ QUOTE ]
6.There is a vetting done to ensure that the horses are showing no signs of illness, disability etc before transportation. My horse was vetted and had HARAS passport. I can't answer you on things that have happened of recent or previously because a. I am not the transporter and b. I don't run the sites I can only say what I have experienced if you understand..

[/ QUOTE ]

Now this is interesting. Horses were NOT vetted before being transported in the early days. Unless you specifically asked for it. Many people thought that the signalement, signed by a vet was a vet check, when in fact it is the proof of identity document.
Did you pay over and above the original price and the transport cost for one? Do you still have a copy of it? I'd be really interested to see it.
 
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