Feed advice please! Alfalfa intolerance!

[Ellietotz]

Hello!
I was hoping to get some advice.
I recently started my mare on Agnus Castus which she absolutely hated and I tried so many things to get her to eat it. One of which was changing her chaff to one that contained alfalfa. Within 5 days of being on it, she went from being really chilled out to a spooky wreck. Took her off it straight away and she is better now but still dramatically spooky. She has been off it for about three weeks now.
I was thinking about trying a calmer but I'm not actually sure if maybe she needs something that will settle her gut more instead? Or just doing some kind of detox? I have no idea but I want my non-overreactive pony back.
Her poos are all fine too so no other sign of upset belly.

On the plus side, she is now eating the Agnus Castus. She is only getting a small handful of Dengie Meadow Grass and half cup of fast fibre.

Advice on what to do now would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you.

 

[Equi]

Why is she on the agnus?

 

[Ellietotz]

Why is she on the agnus?

She gets quite upset when she's in season and other horses on the yard go out. Since she's been on it, she's been completely different and doesn't get separation anxiety now.

 

[Shay]

There are probably a number of factors at play here. After three weeks there will be no chemical residue of alfalfa in your mare's body. If she is still spooky it isn't because of any adverse reaction to alfalfa. It might be because you are a little less confident around her, expecting her to spook, so she thinks there might be something to spook at and so it goes on. It might be because of the very high level of sugar in the dengie meadow grass (12%!) and she basically has too much energy. Its odd to mix such a high sugar chaff with a low starch / sugar feed so you might want to have a think about that.

The empiric evidence for the use of Agnus is really only in support of horses diagnosed with Cushings. So it might be that you have had a positive reaction to that because she is at the early stages of that syndrome. There is limited evidence for Agnus relieving depressive symptoms so it could be that the Agnus has actually just made her happier in herself and you are seeing her more normal behaviour rather than a depressed version.

And it could be a combination of any, all or none!

In your place I would switch the meadow grass to something lower in sugar - but almost all chaffs contain alfalfa so you are going to have to hunt around a bit. Top Chop Zero is low sugar and alfalfa free. There are probably others. Then see what happens.

 

[supsup]

I was actually wondering if the agnus castus caused the spookiness. Sounds like you didn't manage to really get her to eat it well prior to trying the Alfalfa chaff. So maybe you are only now seeing the full effect of the agnus castus dose? Maybe her anxious behaviour has simply shifted focus, from separation anxiety to spookiness? You say she was really chilled previously, but that separation anxiety sounds to me like she was unsettled on some level already before all of this started. I doubt that a small handful of meadow chaff, fed mixed with fast fibre (which is pretty low sugar and starch) would be enough to cause spookiness due to too much sugar.

If you are still convinced the behaviour change is somehow linked to feed, I think I'd try simply stopping all supplements and bucket feed, giving it a week or so, then re-introducing each bit (fast fibre, chaff, supplements) one at a time. That should give you a clearer picture.

 

[Shay]

Yes - better idea supsup....

 

[Ellietotz]

There are probably a number of factors at play here. After three weeks there will be no chemical residue of alfalfa in your mare's body. If she is still spooky it isn't because of any adverse reaction to alfalfa. It might be because you are a little less confident around her, expecting her to spook, so she thinks there might be something to spook at and so it goes on. It might be because of the very high level of sugar in the dengie meadow grass (12%!) and she basically has too much energy. Its odd to mix such a high sugar chaff with a low starch / sugar feed so you might want to have a think about that.

The empiric evidence for the use of Agnus is really only in support of horses diagnosed with Cushings. So it might be that you have had a positive reaction to that because she is at the early stages of that syndrome. There is limited evidence for Agnus relieving depressive symptoms so it could be that the Agnus has actually just made her happier in herself and you are seeing her more normal behaviour rather than a depressed version.

And it could be a combination of any, all or none!

In your place I would switch the meadow grass to something lower in sugar - but almost all chaffs contain alfalfa so you are going to have to hunt around a bit. Top Chop Zero is low sugar and alfalfa free. There are probably others. Then see what happens.

Thank you for your reply! I'm not anxious about her spooking and I don't look out for it either. I make sure I just look ahead when I'm riding and keep her going forwards but it still happens. We only hack so this isn't in the school. I was feeding Lite and Healthy before and she's only had meadow grass for a few days plus she gets the smallest handful of it. Just debating stopping feed all together.

 

[Ellietotz]

I was actually wondering if the agnus castus caused the spookiness. Sounds like you didn't manage to really get her to eat it well prior to trying the Alfalfa chaff. So maybe you are only now seeing the full effect of the agnus castus dose? Maybe her anxious behaviour has simply shifted focus, from separation anxiety to spookiness? You say she was really chilled previously, but that separation anxiety sounds to me like she was unsettled on some level already before all of this started. I doubt that a small handful of meadow chaff, fed mixed with fast fibre (which is pretty low sugar and starch) would be enough to cause spookiness due to too much sugar.

If you are still convinced the behaviour change is somehow linked to feed, I think I'd try simply stopping all supplements and bucket feed, giving it a week or so, then re-introducing each bit (fast fibre, chaff, supplements) one at a time. That should give you a clearer picture.

She didn't really eat it with the alfalfa chaff either. She eats it with the meadow grass though but it's only been a few days. Perhaps I will just go right back to the beginning. I can't stand the spookiness. I don't mind if it's genuinely something scary but when it's at every single cow pat and bush, it's gets tiresome! It's not even normal spooking, it's like suddenly planting and flying to the left/right whilst staring at the flower that looked at her funny!

 

[Ellietotz]

How long does it take for all supplements to completely be out their system?

 

[WelshD]

Meadow grass is really quite high in sugar so worth reconsidering

My mare wont eat Agnus Castus but will happily eat feed with Oestress liquid in, its more expensive but if I dont have to buy extra feed to encourage her its worth it

 

[Notimetoride]

I have researched this to death as it was recommended to me by my vet to feed alfalfa to my my ulcer prone horse. It was like rocket fuel and she became unmanageable so I had to take her off it. I then discovered alfalfa is in a HUGE number of feeds and supplements and I personally wonder if it is responsible for many horses with supposed 'behavioural issues'. I deal with her tummy by other means now, and she's doing incredibly well on Thunderbrooks Healthy Herbal chaff and Agrobs Gut Restorer mash.

Edited to add : my mare becomes spooky and anxious when her ulcers are playing up.

 

[Ladyinred]

I have researched this to death as it was recommended to me by my vet to feed alfalfa to my my ulcer prone horse. It was like rocket fuel and she became unmanageable so I had to take her off it. I then discovered alfalfa is in a HUGE number of feeds and supplements and I personally wonder if it is responsible for many horses with supposed 'behavioural issues'. .

Totally agree. We had to take ours off it, one got super sensitive skin issues and itched all over and two of the others were hyper as you describe. Very hard to find feed free from alfalfa, it's even in some supplements.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

It can take up to 6 weeks for the adverse effects of a foodstuff to completely work out of the system but I was wondering if the agnus castus was responsible for the spooking

I would stop all bucket feed and treats and monitor closely for a couple of months.

 

[Ellietotz]

It can take up to 6 weeks for the adverse effects of a foodstuff to completely work out of the system but I was wondering if the agnus castus was responsible for the spooking

I would stop all bucket feed and treats and monitor closely for a couple of months.

Thank you for your reply! I have taken all supplements out completely, just gone back to basics with what was fine before I added anything in so it's the smallest bit of Honeychop Lite and Healthy chaff and fast fibre. Fingers crossed it settles her down again.

 

[Ellietotz]

Totally agree. We had to take ours off it, one got super sensitive skin issues and itched all over and two of the others were hyper as you describe. Very hard to find feed free from alfalfa, it's even in some supplements.

I can't believe how many things it is in either. I was thinking of trying NAF Magic but it's turns out there is alfalfa in that too. Think it's displayed on the ingredients as Lucerne Meal or something along those lines so easy to miss if you're not looking out for it!