Feed and work advise for the behind

Horsekaren

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I am aware feed is not my only issue, there is more to it i.e correct work ect but i am really on a mission to get all the steps in place to help build some muscle, behind.

A lot of you will know he is very weak, i'm not very experienced and we have been working incorrectly mainly schooling but i am turning everything on its head.

The weekend before last he was seen by a vet/chiro who said he wasn't lame but is tight over his back and shoulders and short behind.

I am on a schooling ban (with exception of one lesson a week with instructor working on long and low)
The plan-
  • -Hack 2 times a week 1 hr a time
  • -Riding on big open grass field, working on canter, two point (just letting him go) and the odd cross pole and trotting poles. (no fiddling with his head just making it fun and geeing him up) and adding as many transitions as i can.

-I am toying with perhaps adding one 20 min lunge lesson so i can see if i can get him tracking up but undecided.

Any other work suggestions appreciated :)

If this doesn't help then i will look for a full vet work up.

after that waffle i really wanted to pick brains about feed. I think he is lacking but i'm scared to meddle.
Feed-
-dry hay twice a day
-out 24/7 (not loads of grazing)
Hard feed
-1/2 a scoop of fast fiber
-1/2 a scoop of grass nuts
-Equimims vits and mins
-1/2 a proper cup measure of linseed.

He isn't the best dooer but he is a good weight, a judge would probably say underweight but vet has said he is perfect. He wont be going on to lush grass all of a sudden so i am not waiting for summer grazing ect.

Is there any changes you would make to the hard feed? I dont want fizz, i think he could do with more calories (but not energy) and perhaps more protein. I know each horse is different but i am gun ho to tackle this weak behind and i want everything the best it can be, feed, saddle, vet, back ect.

Clip of the boy letting his hair down (excuse the rider, i dont know about striding, jumping or anything it was about having fun) needless to say he loved it! As did i! turns out circles are actually pretty boring :D

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Thank you, i have recieved some great help already! Trying to take in as much as i can and getting a plan in place.
 

Michen

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I absolutely love your posts, they just ooze dedication and a will to learn/succeed. We could all learn a lot from your commitment, it's definitely given me some food for thought to get my arse in gear with flatwork!

I'm not sure I'd be looking to change the feed, other than adding some salt. Even if he's not moving on to rich grazing the grass will still be growing and getting more nutritious so I'd hold off for now. He's a good weight, he doesn't need any more calories.

Good luck with him :)

Edited to add- one thing I would say is to remember this is "fun". Don't let the numerous posts telling you what you could/should be doing detract you from enjoying your horse, this is a hobby and whilst we of course want to do our best for them we also want to have fun with them (and them with us!), so don't put yourself under so much pressure that it just becomes stressful. Horses have a way of adding that into the mix at some point during ownership all by themselves... ;)
 

milliepops

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echo everything Michen said :)

Moving towards more varied work will help to build up strength naturally, don't be in too much of a rush to do everything all at once, remember he hasn't done this work much before so just build it up bit by bit.

Horses get protein from all kinds of foodstuffs, they are designed to live on grass so don't feel like you need to go wild on the feeding front. Try to relax and enjoy him a bit :)
 
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BOWS28

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Echoing Michen's comment above - i LOVE your dedication and drive to learn. I couldn't think of a person that deserves to succeed more!! I don't think altering his feed is the answer just keep up the work and let the spring grass do it's job :) Best of luck with your lovely pony!!
 

Horsekaren

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Ah thank you, those made me smile :)
just think now is the time for change.
I sat watching the horses in the field yesterday, then went and had a good poke of them all and he feels so much more wobbly, dippy and angular, doesn't help all of the other horses have a bit more fat but just want to see some muscle on him which i my aim for summer. If i can achieve that i will be over the moon!
 

ponies4ever

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You sound like an unbelievably caring owner your horse is lucky to have you! Everything said above has been very valid, the only thing I would add is maybe including daily carrot stretches to help him along the way? Best of luck I think you will go far ;)
 

Denbob

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Echo what others have said, you obviously care for your horse very deeply! It does sounds like a great plan :)

I second adding carrot stretches. Have a look at Gillian Higgins biomechanics, she's written a book called Pilates and Stretching: An Exercise Book for Horse Owners and it shows some really useful stretches and exercises for engaging the core before and after work.

I'm on a bit of schooling ban as well as mine is coming off a holiday so want to start doing some in-hand work before ridden schooling. Do you have anyone in your area who could introduce you to in-hand classical dressage/straightness training? It can be really useful for both horse and rider to learn what it looks like/feels like to work correctly without the pressure of riding it!
 
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be positive

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He has looked weak and lacking in muscle for a long while, he is a good weight but something is preventing him from muscling up and it is not your riding that is stopping it because most will have a certain amount of muscle tone from just wandering about 24/7, I thought he would change once he went out in the new yard but for some reason he still looks rather weak despite your best efforts which is odd for the type he is.

If he were mine I would, if not done recently, get a worm count and or a blood test just to ensure he does not have something going on that is preventing him utilising his diet correctly, which should be more than adequate for him.
Plenty of steady hacking will be perfect to help improve his muscle tone, try and enjoy it.
 

Horsekaren

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He has looked weak and lacking in muscle for a long while, he is a good weight but something is preventing him from muscling up and it is not your riding that is stopping it because most will have a certain amount of muscle tone from just wandering about 24/7, I thought he would change once he went out in the new yard but for some reason he still looks rather weak despite your best efforts which is odd for the type he is.

If he were mine I would, if not done recently, get a worm count and or a blood test just to ensure he does not have something going on that is preventing him utilising his diet correctly, which should be more than adequate for him.
Plenty of steady hacking will be perfect to help improve his muscle tone, try and enjoy it.

Will deffo add the stretches :) I think he will be happy about that.

He has had bloods done a few times since ive had him, looking for other things but has always been fine (high white blood cells when he was a bit poorly but nothing else spotted)
Haven't done a worm count but they are wormed in a cycle.
 

be positive

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It would be worth doing a count just to ensure the wormers are doing their job, worming is better done when required rather than a blanket method although obviously you have to go along with the yard rules, sometimes one horse gets a burden that is tricky to get rid of and is constantly pulled down a bit.
 

Hallo2012

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i think his feed is about perfect for the work hes in and hopefully the more varied work will see him change shape soon :)
 
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RHM

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I love your pony, I think cobs like this are so fun and versatile!
My chap when bringing back into work after injury was incredibly weak behind. What the physio had us doing was lunging over raised poles with a stretchy physio band round his a**e (sorry can’t remember what they are called, full of a cold and my brain has turned to mash potato). I second straightness training and carrot stretches also. Good luck with him!
 

SEL

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BTW - you can use all kind of things for carrot stretches. We're using willow branches, handfuls of cleavers (sticky weed), dandelions etc.

I don't who you had out as the vet / chiro but my mare also is under-developed behind and his view (Tom Beech) was that there is likely an issue in the SI region. We've had 3 months doing various exercises and I'm not seeing any improvement at the moment so interesting to read your advice.
 

Horsekaren

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He doesn't need more food. He needs to get out and walk, walk, walk for hours - not an hour twice a week - but proper, decent slow hacking.

That's assuming he's sound, capable and not suffering from some underlying issue - which is a big assumption at present.

I think it is a pretty good assumption since being trotted up and showing as sound in flexion tests from the vet.

What would be classed as proper decent slow hacking?
 

JFTDWS

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Not really - flexions etc will not necessarily give any information on more complex lameness issues or non-lameness related issues (e.g. BP's post re- worm burden). I'd suggest that "short behind" is quite possibly bilateral lameness, or tension of some description. It is certainly a physical issue and the cause of it is not clear. That is the sort of question mark that people on here have about this horse.

Proper hacking - 5 times a week, for as long as can be achieved. 2 hours is better than 1. 3 is probably better than 2...
 

Mule

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I love your pony, I think cobs like this are so fun and versatile!
My chap when bringing back into work after injury was incredibly weak behind. What the physio had us doing was lunging over raised poles with a stretchy physio band round his a**e (sorry can’t remember what they are called, full of a cold and my brain has turned to mash potato). I second straightness training and carrot stretches also. Good luck with him!
Out of interest, was this done at the walk or the trot and where did you connect the physio band. I know that it was around his a**e but where did you connect the other end to?
 

Louby

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Love your video, you are braver than me and what a lovely horse.
My young horse is having a similar issue, very weak behind but she has had/got stifle issues that my vet hopes she will grow out of. In the mean time we've done poles, hills, the stretchy band behind but the physio wants to make sure nothing else is going on :( so shes been seen by the vet, was sound on the straight and fine flexion tests but just doesnt look right on a circle, she is now booked in for a lameness work up and Im dreading it. To add to the mix despite paying 2 saddlers I know my saddle isnt right and its now rubbing so I have a lovely saddler who was recommended to me on here coming next week. Really bad timing with the work up but its not right and I just have to be hopeful she isnt broken and Im not wasting money buying a saddle.
Hope your horse is ok
 

RHM

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Out of interest, was this done at the walk or the trot and where did you connect the physio band. I know that it was around his a**e but where did you connect the other end to?

Started in walk for the first couple of weeks, then moving onto trot. I connected it to the rings on a roller, the lower ones. So tied to once side, run under his tail and then connected to the other side. I have to say it has made a real difference to his muscle tone, I still do it once a week/fortnight now even though he is out of the rehab phase.
 

TotalMadgeness

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Both my boys are noticably weak behind but have joint problems (bone spavin in one, malformed stifles in the other).

Luckily I have a long straight sloping driveway and have been advised by both physio and instructor to take them up and down the driveway in walk. Coming down I stop 3 or 4 times and rein back. Going up I ask the horses to leg yield side to side. I have also started using an equicore (in hand and under saddle) and this seems to help - a lot more than I expected if I'm honest! I also do tail pulls, carrot stretches and walk them over a couple of poles raised at one end in the arena.

Intensive pole work unfortunately is out of the question at the moment but in the past raised poles have made a huge difference so if your horse can do any cavalletti work this would be great for him.

Vet advised lots of hacking (in walk - hills included - more than 1 hour) but this is more problematic to organise and fit in with work etc. However am trying my best and managed a whopping three 1.5 hour hacks last week. This week I have arranged an in hand hack tonight and a 2 hour hack on Friday plus a possible hack Sunday. Anyway point is - if your boy happily hacks out do as much as you can and find some hills!

Edited to say the equicore uses the stretchy physio bands... and I don't lunge. Ever.
 
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AmyMay

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Hack, hack and hack some more, and forget about lunging.

It’s an interesting comment from your physio about him being short behind - that would warrant some investigation in my book.
 

Ellietotz

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My mare is another one who is taking a long time to build back up properly. Feed-wise, I wanted to have a good amount of protein but not loads of energy so she gets Dengie Alfa A Molasses Free and a cup of Copra plus her digestive supplements and salt but most importantly Vitamin E which has been a life saver for her muscle issues. I don't school her as she doesn't find it fun and I don't blame her really! Just lots and lots of steady hacking, not burning about or being silly, uphill work in walk and trot, stepping over small logs if available whilst out, everything you can to build up the muscles. Do you have a track out in the field anywhere? As I put down some poles at one time so that every time she wandered up a certain track in the field, she'd have to step over the poles so essentially working without being worked.
In conclusion though, the only thing I have found is that it takes time for good muscle building. A lot of time. The three essential amino acids can be helpful too. You'll get there in the end!
 

Michen

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Hack, hack and hack some more, and forget about lunging.

It’s an interesting comment from your physio about him being short behind - that would warrant some investigation in my book.

It's a difficult one as think this horse has been seen by a vet? Boggle is "reserved" behind. He is long in the back and with a lot of front end which he loves to utilise, he will not "naturally" track up the minute you get on him, he requires a good 10/15 mins work in the school before even thinking about it. He gets regular lameness checks from a very well known vet, inc flexions/hard circle and isn't lame behind. When I moaned to the vet about his movement (which would be greatly improved if I made more effort with the schooling!) the vet laughed and said well look at him- he's hardly built for it. His trot isn't remotely impressive. He has a super canter.

Some horses are more reserved behind than others, and it takes riding to coax that hind end out of them, which the OP doesn't yet have the experience to do (not that I do either, but I know with transitions and leg yielding it happens for Bog!).
 

oldie48

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I'm another who wouldn't change the feed, I give more or less the same as you to Rose and now the grass is coming through and she's onto her summer grazing, I've dropped the linseed as I don't want her to put too much weight on. We don't have many hills round here but there is one that although not that long or steep is used by our local pointers, I see them going up in trot and down in walk, several times before moving on with their hack. I really think a bit of hillwork can make a difference as they really have to use their back end.
 

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I really admire the fact that you have totally put yourself out there and you obviously want the best for him:)

His feed sounds fine but I really would get him out hacking get him marching out and using himself properly, it's often useful to do a little hack then do a bit in the school afterwards, he will be warmed up more forward thinking and they generally find it easier and so will you, my 2 horses always go better in the school after a trip round the block.
 

Rowreach

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It's a difficult one as think this horse has been seen by a vet? Boggle is "reserved" behind. He is long in the back and with a lot of front end which he loves to utilise, he will not "naturally" track up the minute you get on him, he requires a good 10/15 mins work in the school before even thinking about it. He gets regular lameness checks from a very well known vet, inc flexions/hard circle and isn't lame behind. When I moaned to the vet about his movement (which would be greatly improved if I made more effort with the schooling!) the vet laughed and said well look at him- he's hardly built for it. His trot isn't remotely impressive. He has a super canter.

Some horses are more reserved behind than others, and it takes riding to coax that hind end out of them, which the OP doesn't yet have the experience to do (not that I do either, but I know with transitions and leg yielding it happens for Bog!).

Yes but in the video from behind you can clearly see how uneven his muscular development is and that ties in with the way he is carrying one hind leg (visible from side on, particularly on a circle), and bunny hopping into canter when not asked.

It doesn’t matter what one feeds or what work one is doing, if the muscle isn’t being used properly, it won’t develop properly.
 

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Echo Michen's first post. You are very dedicated and deserve to be successful with your mission! Good to see that you're still having fun and not getting bogged down by it all.

Another who thinks your feed is pretty much spot on. I'd add salt to his feed daily and personally I'd swap the Fast Fibre for Keyflow Pink Mash. I really rate this feed there has been a noticeable difference in the five horses I've fed it to over the years.

If you've any concerns about "short behind" etc ask your physio to give you a call to discuss it. They are best placed to explain exactly what they meant and tbh I'd expect any therapist worth their salt to tell a client to get a vet out if there was any undiagnosed lameness or causes for concern if not contact vet themselves and pass on their report for the records. The fact that this hasn't happened leads me to think that this isn't some end of the world thing and will be something ongoing that will/can be improved with correct work and stretching etc.

Yes he's weaker behind but (apologies I don't know the back story) that could be because he's never been trained/ridden "correctly" and has pulled himself along in front and the back end has trailed along in the previous county. It does take quite a long time to make physical changes when a horse has used themselves in a certain way for years. Take regular photos of his standing square from front/side/back as you won't notice small changes because you see him daily.

The suggestion of Gillian Higgins books for stretching are ideal too. Next time your physio is out ask them to show you stretches (particularly hind legs if he's possibly tight in his hamstrings) properly so you can feel how far/deep a stretch is supposed to be. You can also get those little £3 balls with knobbly bits for massage; they can be used gently on muscles (not bony bits) to help soften the muscles. You can get all sorts of massage mits and brushes too that can help.

Another book, if you're interested in "hands on" work, is the Jim Masterson "Masterson Method" book. It's easy to read with photographs illustrating the moves and is handily spiral bound to take onto the yard to work through. It's not invasive and horses seems to love it. Just some extra ideas of things that you could be doing in between physio visits.

I'd also suggest being extra vigilant about your saddle fit. With the change in work and how he is moving he'll be using new muscles and building new/existing ones and it sometimes doesn't take much to alter the fit.

Good luck with it all! Keep up the good work and please keep posting. Your enthusiasm and how eager you are to learn and improve is very inspiring and there is always lots to learn from other posters in your threads so thank you!
 

milliepops

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I think the other thing I would have in the back of my mind, which OP has mentioned in her post, is that he's tight in the back. I think this has been a bit of a long term thing? It's impossible for any of us to know if that is cause or effect of the tightness behind, but given that the horse has seen the vet & other professionals and been declared Ok for work, then I think what the OP is proposing as a work programme is pretty suitable...

he will either loosen up and begin to get stronger, or else if there IS something niggling him it will probably become more apparent and then it can be identified & treated.
 

Rowreach

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I think the other thing I would have in the back of my mind, which OP has mentioned in her post, is that he's tight in the back. I think this has been a bit of a long term thing? It's impossible for any of us to know if that is cause or effect of the tightness behind, but given that the horse has seen the vet & other professionals and been declared Ok for work, then I think what the OP is proposing as a work programme is pretty suitable...

he will either loosen up and begin to get stronger, or else if there IS something niggling him it will probably become more apparent and then it can be identified & treated.

Normally I’d agree, but this has been going on for months/a year? - ages now, and I can never get out of my head the pictures of what this horse used to look like, which the OP has previously posted.
 
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