Feeding a very underweight tb (with a lot of problems)

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NikitaFellows

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Hi All,

So two years and a half years ago I bought my TB gelding, who having failed at racing was left in a field with no rugs/feed for 3 months over winter. He was 4 then.

It turns out he has a lot of problems.

He cribs, (it's improved by reducing cereals in his diet)
He has ulcers
He had a bout of colics, 3 in 3 months
He is a slow eater (12lb hay will do him a whole night no problem)

The first year, he gained slowly from the Feb when I bought him to the September. not wonderfully but looked better. He then started to colic frequently and lost condition. The grass was going at the same time and he lost drastically. I had blood tests and they came back normal.

The following year I nursed him, removed all cereal from his diet and put him in a 75 acre hilly field with only a couple of other horses and let him get on with him (feeding fibrebeet and Dengie healthy tummy to top him up on calories) he gained nicely over the summer. Never fat but he gained.

Between October last year and Christmas he lost all his condition incredibly quickly. He was on fibre beet, grass nuts, topline cubes.

In Jan this year I moved yards and they were horrified and told me I had to feed him sugar beet and baileys no 4, as it' never failed them. Feeding him three meals a day at recommended amounts for gain, plus good ad-lib (he only gets through 12lb a night) hay he didn't gain in weight at all and the people there said I ought to give up.

He is now on good grazing during the days and fibrebeet with top spec comp. balancer (just to try it), with good quality adlib hay.

He is wormed to date.
He is well rugged up.
I'm not exercising him to burn calories.
He gets 3 small/med feeds a day.
Always has hay.
Teeth recently done by good vet.
Tried adding oil to his feed, after a few days he stops eating it as he doesn't like it.
Is vaccinated to date and blood tests were fine.
He's bright, full of energy, plays in the field.
His coat looks amazing and shiny.
He's just incredibly skinny and I can't find any answer to keep it on him.


He isn't insured as they won't cover me for anything digestive so it's a lot of money and I can't get gastro guard for ulcers.

He's a 16.1 tb, 500kg. I can see every rib and his back end is almost skeletal. If he wasn't mine and I didn't know he was cared for I'd be appalled.

I've tried:
Grass nuts (no improvement)
Conditioning mix.
Thirds (little effect on weight but irritated ulcers)
Dengie healthy tummy (no real improvement but reduced cribbing)
Fibre beet (best I've found)
Sugar beet (better results with fibrebeet)
Ready mash (rocket fuel)
Simple systems (he wouldn't entertain it, too bland)
Topline cubes (no improvement at all after 3 bags)
I try to avoid cereals because of the ulcers but avoiding all cereal means he loses too much weight.

Just today started on fibrebeet and the top spec balancer.

All other horses on the yard look amazing. I'm at a total loss. I feel like I've done everything. I've had advice from vets, nutritionists but nothing other than amazing grass has ever out weight on him. It takes all summer for the grass to get him looking good, I get a month of being able to work him then the grass goes and he starts to drop again instantly. No matter how much I plough him with calories or try to keep to just a lot of fibre, nothing helps but grass.

Any help/recommendations?

I can't post pics from phone but will try from laptop or message me if you're interested in seeing the photos of the extent of the problem.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Hard to say without seeing the photos but I feel inclined to say that if he's 500kg, looks well and acts well then why worry? Some tb's just stay ribby no matter what you feed them and at this time of year I would just turn him out on the best grass you can find. Have you tried haylage rather than hay ?
 
10250150_10152748576614606_9023581504207084851_n.jpg

Current


10252067_10152748469074606_5687474074151090465_n.jpg

Current

421342_10150754962909606_1466447628_n.jpg

When I first got him


1497599_10152421652324606_2031702423_n.jpg

End of summer looking his best

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End of Summer
 
Looking at the pictures he looks like he needs some decent grass, he must have put on weight last summer as he was looking good, can you just turn him out on some spring grass and give him a holiday ?
 
Hi Bonny. Found my laptop. Photos below.

Oh yes, forgot to mention. I tried haylage. It was too rich and his legs literally popped from excess protein (vets diagnosis). Graphic pic of the results from 2 weeks of conditioning mix, haylage and spring grass...

10150811_10152755620434606_5918868768877056435_n.jpg


Hence, no more haylage!
 
He's been on holiday since Jan and he's out on decent grass. But it took the whole of summer to get to that stage, in the most amazing field. This was first week of October, he'd lived at grass and been a happy hack all summer with hard feed every evening. It fell back off in a matter of weeks. I need to be able to maintain him. This level of loss and gain every year isnt good or normal. Not to mention frustrating and expesnive for me. He's my only horse and I cant do anything. It's barely worth getting him fit for the few weeks I have where I can do reasonable work with him.
 
When were the last blood test done? Given that he gains weight well on grass which is high in calories and low(ish) in protein, but can't manage the higher levels of protein in grain based feeds, I'd be repeating them, with special emphasis on liver function. He has lost ALL his topline and that combined with the "exploding legs" makes me think he can't tolerate/manage protein, which suggest liver disease of some sort.
 
Looks like you haven't tried micronised linseed yet. Well worth it as it is much more palatable than oil and a good balance of omega 3 and 6. Fenugreek is worth a try as they tend to like the taste and it is good for appetite.
 
The ulcers are an issue and you are doing pretty much all you can by having him on adlib forage but are you using anything to try and help control them, a supplement may not cure but may help maintain them at some level.
Have you tried Protexin?? that is very effective in maintaining a healthy hind gut and they do several types, very helpful if you phone for advice.
Last summer he was on healthy tummy, that has protexin in it and may have helped, you stopped it and he lost weight, just a thought.

Alfalfa is good for horses with ulcers, the cubes may be better than grass nuts for him and worth a try, they do not seem to be on your list.

The tb in my yard is on Red Mills feeds, he has improved a tremendous amount since being on it, mine is on the 14% as he is in hard work but they do a 10% which we use when he is resting and it is targeted as a complete feed for horses with digestive problems, it could be worth trying. Link at bottom.

Linseed is great but one of mine cannot have even a tiny amount as his legs swell, too much protein so be careful if you try it on your boy.
http://www.redmills.co.uk/uk/horse/products/product/?id=494&parent=373&product_finder_option_ids[]=2&product_finder_option_ids[]=5&product_finder_option_ids[]=21&product_finder_option_ids[]=23
 
OwnedByJoe - no one has ever suggested lived disease but having just seen your post and doing a bit of reading this seems to fit perfectly and add up with why he is gaining nothing at all now. I'm feeding conditioning feeds and would need to totally reverse it.
 
It sounds as though you are spending a small fortune in trialling everything out. You know what works. Good grass.

Have you thought about investing in a small one of these...
http://www.h2ofarm.co.uk/

One of these is on my list. Takes a bit of getting your head around and you need the right room, but a big insulated shed will do and it's very good stuff. Very high in nutrients but low in protein. Could be worth considering.
 
NikitaFellows said:
OwnedByJoe - no one has ever suggested lived disease but having just seen your post and doing a bit of reading this seems to fit perfectly and add up with why he is gaining nothing at all now. I'm feeding conditioning feeds and would need to totally reverse it.
Click to expand...

Routine bloods should have checked liver function, it is worth looking into further but I would be surprised if the vet has not considered it.

If you are concerned about his liver avoid oil in any form, low protein which you do already, the other thing to look at is another area of low grade pain causing him to be stressed, do you have a good physio who could check him, they frequently find areas that a vet will disregard.
 
NikitaFellows said:
OwnedByJoe - no one has ever suggested lived disease but having just seen your post and doing a bit of reading this seems to fit perfectly and add up with why he is gaining nothing at all now. I'm feeding conditioning feeds and would need to totally reverse it.
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I thought of liver disease straight off, but does it not show on blood tests, I would ask for results in hard copy.
I would jab him with vitamins and phone up Saracen feeds nutritionist.
Micronised linseed and hi fibre. would be fine for most TBs but presumably not if liver disease.
Also blood test for tapeworm?
 
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_GG_ said:
It sounds as though you are spending a small fortune in trialling everything out. You know what works. Good grass.

Have you thought about investing in a small one of these...
http://www.h2ofarm.co.uk/

One of these is on my list. Takes a bit of getting your head around and you need the right room, but a big insulated shed will do and it's very good stuff. Very high in nutrients but low in protein. Could be worth considering.
Click to expand...
Yes well we are all eating salads grown this way, and there is no "taste"
 
If I was tough as teak I would say horse is not happy, I am not happy........
I think could set some sort of deadline, no one can keep such an expensive pet when both owners and pet are not happy.
 
winergy condition, soaked oats (which are high fibre and not rocket fuel as most people think) and micronised linseed.
find Fenlands sports horses on facebook and ask her about the Equite Elite supplements that will be available in the uk soon, the mega build is an absolute miracle product for putting condition on :)
 
You need to treat the ulcers. Can you not get gastroguard at all?

Also his front hooves are very unbalanced with long toes and under-run heels. Has your farrier/trimmer mentioned this?

I have found micronised linseed very good with my mare who worried some weight off this winter. She has has swollen legs from excess protein in the past and the linseed didn't cause any problems for her. The grass should be coming through now, which will definitely help your boy.
 
I too would say treat the ulcers if that is what you know he has. Alfa oil is a good forage and yes try the Microlized Linseed. Get a small bag first to see if he will eat it.

I would also give him a de-dox for his liver and a blood tonic such as Pro Pell or Red Cell.

We all know good grass is what will put weight on a horse.
 
I would get liver function redone from reading poor thing sounds like an ex race my friend ended up with. She was repeatedly reported to the rspca over its condition but it was not for the want of trying. She went to the kennels in the end as she went down and wouldnt get up. when they opened her up they said her liver was severely damaged with less than a 3rd viable. they concluded ragwort posioning.

A friend refused to pay for gastro gaurd and ordered an american version (possibly via canada) for her chap
 
In no particular order.

1. He's in livery - no room to be growing my own.

2. My farrier is out today. He has terrible feet but they look worse here by the way the farrier squared the toes, so they're now fluted. I avoided getting them trimmed as, like someone else suggested, I was about to call it a day and have him PTS unless I found an answer. I wasn't going to pay a farrier bill and then put him down the next week.

3. No, I can't get gastroguard. It's horrendously expensive and the insurers wont cover me for it.

4. I manage his cribbing ulcers with low cereal feed and I've seen vast improvement. He also got charcoal and spearmint when he cribbed a lot more but since it's better, I now just keep him off the cereal.

5. I called my vet, the blood tests I had a few months ago showed raised liver enzymes. Since they were unable to put 2 and 2 together I will be changing vets and now someone has said it and I've done some reading, he seems to be screaming liver disease.

6. He's had oil added to his feed and lots of conditioning feed over the winter, which I understand would do more harm than good to a horse with liver disease - have I likely done irreversible damage here? With a change in diet to something very well suited to liver diease, in peoples experience, how long before I might see results? Am I expecting a slow process as the liver repairs?

7. Yes. I've moved to a new livery yard because the quality of the grazing is very high - I know this works well for him, but being in the north of England, summer is a short-lived thing. I need something for the other 11 months of the year!
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
winergy condition, soaked oats (which are high fibre and not rocket fuel as most people think) and micronised linseed.
find Fenlands sports horses on facebook and ask her about the Equite Elite supplements that will be available in the uk soon, the mega build is an absolute miracle product for putting condition on :)
Click to expand...

:nods:

Fig after 2 years of winergy and micronised linseed...

figcompari2yr_zps14fbd8fb.png


Oats were added late 2013 and the Elite Equine supplements just a few weeks ago. He is positively blooming on them!

We are going to try CS on the Mega Build too.
 
After having a TB that was increadibly difficult to put weight on, never really found the root cause of the problem... however it's all very well saying try this feed, try that feed... people on here seem to rave about micronised linseed, personally I've tried it, and the horses I tried it on was a waste of money... didnt do anything for them, Baileys Outshine worked far better!

Has he actually been scoped and diagnosed with ulcers? Has he been scoped recently?

Personally at this moment in time I'd be saving my money from buying bags of expensive horse feeds and spending the money on the vet instead.
 
Yes. He was confirmed by vet as having ulcers. He hasn't been scoped again as he isn't insured.

I know his problems. He sees the vet regularly. I am not trying to replace a vets advice here, but he is not insured. He was a few hundred pounds to buy and a happy hack. I will not be forking out for further scoping/blood tests.
 
My point is that you seem to be spending a fortune on trying out different feeds, and none of them seem to be working.

If you havent treated the ulcers there is a good chance that these are contributing to his weight problems.
 
Please save up and treat the ulcers. I'm sure that a cheaper source of the active ingredient in Gastroguard (omeprazole) has been mentioned on this forum.
 
wench said:
My point is that you seem to be spending a fortune on trying out different feeds, and none of them seem to be working.

If you havent treated the ulcers there is a good chance that these are contributing to his weight problems.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. It has to be worth the short term cost of treating the ulcers vs the long term cost of high feed bills. In addition, it is also against the law to withhold veterinary care to a horse that needs it. Ulcers are not really to be ignored IMO. Not having a go, just saying...that would be my plan. It'll save you money in the long term and you'll have a much happier, healthier horse.
 
NikitaFellows said:
Yes. He was confirmed by vet as having ulcers. He hasn't been scoped again as he isn't insured.

I know his problems. He sees the vet regularly. I am not trying to replace a vets advice here, but he is not insured. He was a few hundred pounds to buy and a happy hack. I will not be forking out for further scoping/blood tests.
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Well, I am not sure what you want, are you saying he is not worth it, so will be shooting him and buying another one?......... this is not the usual way, horses are like all pets, not just for christmas. Why did you buy a horse with so many problems if you were not willing to spend on veterinary treatment?
I don't see what insured/not insured has to do with it.
If vet advised treatment which you know will treat a known condition, I don't quite see the problem.
Personally it gives me no pleasure to look at a horse in such a state, and if I don t do a hobby for pleasure, why do it?
 
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OwnedbyJoe said:
When were the last blood test done? Given that he gains weight well on grass which is high in calories and low(ish) in protein, but can't manage the higher levels of protein in grain based feeds, I'd be repeating them, with special emphasis on liver function. He has lost ALL his topline and that combined with the "exploding legs" makes me think he can't tolerate/manage protein, which suggest liver disease of some sort.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this and some blood work is where I would start if he where mine .
But I would based of course on what's found with the bloods be treating those ulcers with gastroguard .
 
Believe me, no-one gets less pleasure out of seeing my horse like this than I do.

Your attitudes are very hostile and upsetting! I bought a very skinny horse in January from a field with no rug. I had no idea of the other underlying problems - there was nothing to suggest any. It is only with time that I've realised he doesn't gain weight as he should.

My horse does not want for care, or the vet. He has had my every penny and is very well loved and cared for to the absolute best of my ability and bank balance. I have sought help from every avenue. I have paid thousands in vets bills to get him through colic, and blood tests and his exploded leg amongst other things. The vet has been called regarding his weight and said the tests are prohibitively expensive without insurance. I take extreme offence at your attitude that I would just put him down and replace him. He is irreplaceable. I nursed him to health and through many an awful time. Therefore, if you're here to tell me I'm heartless and you're wonderful, please leave it.

I agreed with my vet that the ulcers would be managed using supplements, management and feed. I did this and it was agreed that his windsucking was drastically reduced but the condition didn't improve unless he was at grass.

The cheaper option to gastro guard was mentioned and my vet said it's around £75 a month and it was questionable how well it worked and I'd need it for six months.

I bought a horse not knowing his problem, got attached and have done all in my power to get him healthy. Money, unfortunately, does not grow on trees and not can I sell a horse in this condition, therefore the only other option is PTS. I'm not willing to do that until I'm sure I've tried all I can. I posted here as a last ditch to get other peoples opinions.

If my vet thought I was withholding treatment, I'm sure they'd have something to say. They don't, because I take their advice on his management often.

I'm not ploughing him with expensive food, I'm trying to find a diet which works. This is not at the expense of a vets visit.

I'm looking for suggestions, not criticisms. I know that I do my best. If anyone wants to bankroll me or set up an insurance company that doesn't have the exclusions, please feel free but my hands are otherwise tied.
 
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