Feeding advice?

[AmeliaA]

I have 2 horses - one who is an easy keeper in the winter but often drops weight in the Summer due to increased workload and one who has just been diagnosed with EMS and is a very easy keeper and probably doesn’t really need hard feed.

currently I feed pure balancer and speedibeet (horse 1 also gets a joint supplement). However the pure balance is too high in starch for the EMS pony so am thinking of switching and ideally want them both on the same base feed.

I was thinking of feeding them both on Thunderbrooks healthy herbal chaff, speedibeet, Thunderbrooks daily essentials min/vit supplement and some micronised linseed.
My idea was to have a low value feed for the EMS pony, but also feed Linseed both for coat condition and if in the Summer horse 1 needs a bit more weight, I could up the linseed. linseed is also meant to be good for EMS.

opinions please! Would this diet be suitable all year round?

Also what amounts of linseed would you suggest feeding?
TIA

 

[Starzaan]

Ok, before I start, I have managed high end luxury livery yards and rehab yards for a long time. I have worked extremely closely with a veterinary nutritionist (a fully qualified, practicing vet, who dedicates three days a week purely to educating people about equine nutrition). We worked out a dietary plan for every rehab case on the yard, down to the last gram, and I have seen this work extremely well countless times.

Firstly, you need to know how much each of them weighs. This needs to be done with a weighbridge if at all possible as weigh tapes are generally insanely out! You need to feed by weight - ALL feed must be calculated by weight to avoid just chucking money on the muck heap.

You will need to feed a good quality balancer. I would recommend TopSpec Comprehensive or D&H Ultimate - both are excellent. The amount you feed will need to be weighed (I recommend weighing and then marking how much this is on a cup so you don't have the faff of weighing every day).
I would put them both on Alfa A Oil (don't worry, this is safe for EMS horses!), and some linseed oil as an additive. No more than 90ml of the linseed oil initially. For the horse who needs more weight, you could add some micronised linseed when they drop weight - but again, this needs to be calculated on weight. If you need a joint supplement the only one that is actually proven to work and peer reviewed by vets is Naf Superflex Senior. All of this is safe for EMS horses or those prone to laminitis. I promise - I have fed this for years to such horses.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing to learn about feeding is a recovery feed. You need to feed a small amount of chaff half an hour before exercise to form a fibre mat and help prevent acid splash, and then you need a recovery feed half an hour after exercise. The best for this is Saracen Recovery Mash, with Science Supplements Complete Electrolytes added in (the Recovery Mash does contain electrolytes but not the full spectrum needed for recovery). This is also the time to feed any active supplements such as Science Supplements Muscle Builder (best for muscle growth, don't bother with Myoplast, it's spirulina and blackcurrant flavouring!). If you don't provide a supplement at the right time, you may as well chuck it on the muck heap. For example, Muscle Builder needs to be fed at the time the muscle glycogen recovery is occurring - this is after work!

I am more than happy to chat further. I have witnessed and been part of some pretty incredible transformations aided significantly by correct feeding. I don't know it all, but have learnt an awful lot from this lovely vet. Happy to share her website if you would like to learn more from her.

 

[AmeliaA]

Ok, before I start, I have managed high end luxury livery yards and rehab yards for a long time. I have worked extremely closely with a veterinary nutritionist (a fully qualified, practicing vet, who dedicates three days a week purely to educating people about equine nutrition). We worked out a dietary plan for every rehab case on the yard, down to the last gram, and I have seen this work extremely well countless times.

Firstly, you need to know how much each of them weighs. This needs to be done with a weighbridge if at all possible as weigh tapes are generally insanely out! You need to feed by weight - ALL feed must be calculated by weight to avoid just chucking money on the muck heap.

You will need to feed a good quality balancer. I would recommend TopSpec Comprehensive or D&H Ultimate - both are excellent. The amount you feed will need to be weighed (I recommend weighing and then marking how much this is on a cup so you don't have the faff of weighing every day).
I would put them both on Alfa A Oil (don't worry, this is safe for EMS horses!), and some linseed oil as an additive. No more than 90ml of the linseed oil initially. For the horse who needs more weight, you could add some micronised linseed when they drop weight - but again, this needs to be calculated on weight. If you need a joint supplement the only one that is actually proven to work and peer reviewed by vets is Naf Superflex Senior. All of this is safe for EMS horses or those prone to laminitis. I promise - I have fed this for years to such horses.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing to learn about feeding is a recovery feed. You need to feed a small amount of chaff half an hour before exercise to form a fibre mat and help prevent acid splash, and then you need a recovery feed half an hour after exercise. The best for this is Saracen Recovery Mash, with Science Supplements Complete Electrolytes added in (the Recovery Mash does contain electrolytes but not the full spectrum needed for recovery). This is also the time to feed any active supplements such as Science Supplements Muscle Builder (best for muscle growth, don't bother with Myoplast, it's spirulina and blackcurrant flavouring!). If you don't provide a supplement at the right time, you may as well chuck it on the muck heap. For example, Muscle Builder needs to be fed at the time the muscle glycogen recovery is occurring - this is after work!

I am more than happy to chat further. I have witnessed and been part of some pretty incredible transformations aided significantly by correct feeding. I don't know it all, but have learnt an awful lot from this lovely vet. Happy to share her website if you would like to learn more from her.

is what I wanted feeding wrong? And would you feed oil instead of micronised linseed. Sorry this is all a bit confusing ?

 

[AmeliaA]

Ok, before I start, I have managed high end luxury livery yards and rehab yards for a long time. I have worked extremely closely with a veterinary nutritionist (a fully qualified, practicing vet, who dedicates three days a week purely to educating people about equine nutrition). We worked out a dietary plan for every rehab case on the yard, down to the last gram, and I have seen this work extremely well countless times.

Firstly, you need to know how much each of them weighs. This needs to be done with a weighbridge if at all possible as weigh tapes are generally insanely out! You need to feed by weight - ALL feed must be calculated by weight to avoid just chucking money on the muck heap.

You will need to feed a good quality balancer. I would recommend TopSpec Comprehensive or D&H Ultimate - both are excellent. The amount you feed will need to be weighed (I recommend weighing and then marking how much this is on a cup so you don't have the faff of weighing every day).
I would put them both on Alfa A Oil (don't worry, this is safe for EMS horses!), and some linseed oil as an additive. No more than 90ml of the linseed oil initially. For the horse who needs more weight, you could add some micronised linseed when they drop weight - but again, this needs to be calculated on weight. If you need a joint supplement the only one that is actually proven to work and peer reviewed by vets is Naf Superflex Senior. All of this is safe for EMS horses or those prone to laminitis. I promise - I have fed this for years to such horses.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing to learn about feeding is a recovery feed. You need to feed a small amount of chaff half an hour before exercise to form a fibre mat and help prevent acid splash, and then you need a recovery feed half an hour after exercise. The best for this is Saracen Recovery Mash, with Science Supplements Complete Electrolytes added in (the Recovery Mash does contain electrolytes but not the full spectrum needed for recovery). This is also the time to feed any active supplements such as Science Supplements Muscle Builder (best for muscle growth, don't bother with Myoplast, it's spirulina and blackcurrant flavouring!). If you don't provide a supplement at the right time, you may as well chuck it on the muck heap. For example, Muscle Builder needs to be fed at the time the muscle glycogen recovery is occurring - this is after work!

I am more than happy to chat further. I have witnessed and been part of some pretty incredible transformations aided significantly by correct feeding. I don't know it all, but have learnt an awful lot from this lovely vet. Happy to share her website if you would like to learn more from her.

both horses have been weighed on a bridge, but it was a good few months ago so they’ve probably fluctuated a bit

 

[Starzaan]

is what I wanted feeding wrong? And would you feed oil instead of micronised linseed. Sorry this is all a bit confusing ?

It's not wrong, but it won't provide the nutrition your horses need, so would be better to just feed nothing but hay and grass if you aren't going to feed a good quality balancer

Linseed oil should be more than sufficient, and is a safer way to improve coat condition without too many additional calories for your EMS horse. If you need to add micronised linseed for the poor doer, then that would work too, but start with linseed oil and only add if you need to.

 

[AmeliaA]

It's not wrong, but it won't provide the nutrition your horses need, so would be better to just feed nothing but hay and grass if you aren't going to feed a good quality balancer

Linseed oil should be more than sufficient, and is a safer way to improve coat condition without too many additional calories for your EMS horse. If you need to add micronised linseed for the poor doer, then that would work too, but start with linseed oil and only add if you need to.

can I pm you? Easier than going back and forth here

 

[Starzaan]

Of course

 

[I'm Dun]

Top spec and D&H are not good balancers. Their spec is not ideal. Advising feeding a good doer EMS horse/pony with alfa oil and then saracens recovery mash is asking for trouble!

Please dont feed thunderbrooks though, theres threads on here detailing why.

Your plan of sugar beet and grass chaff is a good one. Emerald green do a low sugar/starch grass chaff , although I've not looked at the total sugar and starch for a while so worth checking. Linseed is best fed as micronised linseed not oil.

Balancer wise look at something from progressive earth/forage plus/equivita. Progressive Earth do a basic one that would work for most horses that arent restricted, and costs about £12 a month. If your EMS horse is on restricted grazing I'd look at one of the better spec PE balancers that contain vitamin e as this will be missing in their diet. You need to add salt but for most horses you dont need to buy a specific electrolyte. And you absolutely dont need muscle building supplements.

If you are really concerned then they are equine nutritionists, independent ones, who will look at and review your diet plans.

 

[TPO]

Top spec and D&H are not good balancers. Their spec is not ideal. Advising feeding a good doer EMS horse/pony with alfa oil and then saracens recovery mash is asking for trouble!

Please dont feed thunderbrooks though, theres threads on here detailing why.

Your plan of sugar beet and grass chaff is a good one. Emerald green do a low sugar/starch grass chaff , although I've not looked at the total sugar and starch for a while so worth checking. Linseed is best fed as micronised linseed not oil.

Balancer wise look at something from progressive earth/forage plus/equivita. Progressive Earth do a basic one that would work for most horses that arent restricted, and costs about £12 a month. If your EMS horse is on restricted grazing I'd look at one of the better spec PE balancers that contain vitamin e as this will be missing in their diet. You need to add salt but for most horses you dont need to buy a specific electrolyte. And you absolutely dont need muscle building supplements.

If you are really concerned then they are equine nutritionists, independent ones, who will look at and review your diet plans.

This 100%

If in doubt please contact an INDEPENDENT nutritionist. Again do your own research but I've heard good things about Claire Mcleod.

 

[SEL]

My EMS one gets a small amount of kwikbeet and chaff with a powder balancer. For the one who drops weight I up the quantity of beet and add micronised linseed. Keeps it simple (until I got one who can't eat beet!)

 

[AmeliaA]

Top spec and D&H are not good balancers. Their spec is not ideal. Advising feeding a good doer EMS horse/pony with alfa oil and then saracens recovery mash is asking for trouble!

Please dont feed thunderbrooks though, theres threads on here detailing why.

Your plan of sugar beet and grass chaff is a good one. Emerald green do a low sugar/starch grass chaff , although I've not looked at the total sugar and starch for a while so worth checking. Linseed is best fed as micronised linseed not oil.

Balancer wise look at something from progressive earth/forage plus/equivita. Progressive Earth do a basic one that would work for most horses that arent restricted, and costs about £12 a month. If your EMS horse is on restricted grazing I'd look at one of the better spec PE balancers that contain vitamin e as this will be missing in their diet. You need to add salt but for most horses you dont need to buy a specific electrolyte. And you absolutely dont need muscle building supplements.

If you are really concerned then they are equine nutritionists, independent ones, who will look at and review your diet plans.

Oh my gosh ? will definitely not be having Thunderbrooks. I’ve already ordered their vit/min supplement so I’ll probably use that up and then switch to something else!! Is Eddie still a partner? I can only find about Deborah being a director.

the Emerald green chaff is unfortunately too high in sugar but I’m sure there will plenty of options about.

is there any chance you can link me the PE supplement? I’ve looked at so many now my brains given up. Could you also supplement vit E oil separately and stick to the basic supp?

can I also ask how much micronised linseed you would feed to the EMS pony? Guidance online is very vague.

was planning on contacting a nutritionist if I didn’t think they were doing so well when I make the switch

 

[AmeliaA]

My EMS one gets a small amount of kwikbeet and chaff with a powder balancer. For the one who drops weight I up the quantity of beet and add micronised linseed. Keeps it simple (until I got one who can't eat beet!)

what power balancer do you use? They’re all so similar I’m struggling to figure out which is best

 

[outdoor girl]

I feed my EMS horse Dengie Hi Fi Lite and Baileys Lo Cal Balancer with 4kg haylage which has been soaked for about 1 hour and then well rinsed (under instructions from the vet). She's turned out in a muzzle during the summer but has managed through the winter without one and that's on turnout from about 6.00 a.m. to about 4.00 p.m. Her insulin test results, on this feed regime, have gone from 265 to 21. She's also PPID. Hope this gives you some idea for feeding.

 

[AmeliaA]

I feed my EMS horse Dengie Hi Fi Lite and Baileys Lo Cal Balancer with 4kg haylage which has been soaked for about 1 hour and then well rinsed (under instructions from the vet). She's turned out in a muzzle during the summer but has managed through the winter without one and that's on turnout from about 6.00 a.m. to about 4.00 p.m. Her insulin test results, on this feed regime, have gone from 265 to 21. She's also PPID. Hope this gives you some idea for feeding.

That’s very very promising thank you, our biggest concern was turnout. Any tips for keeping a muzzle on? She’s a very clever Welsh mare ?

 

[Starzaan]

My advice above comes from an independent veterinary nutritionist, and has successfully worked on countless rehab cases with EMS and laminitis.
Dr Casalis De Pury at Equicare Nutrition if you would like to get in touch for more info than I can provide.

 

[Starzaan]

Top spec and D&H are not good balancers. Their spec is not ideal. Advising feeding a good doer EMS horse/pony with alfa oil and then saracens recovery mash is asking for trouble!

Please dont feed thunderbrooks though, theres threads on here detailing why.

Your plan of sugar beet and grass chaff is a good one. Emerald green do a low sugar/starch grass chaff , although I've not looked at the total sugar and starch for a while so worth checking. Linseed is best fed as micronised linseed not oil.

Balancer wise look at something from progressive earth/forage plus/equivita. Progressive Earth do a basic one that would work for most horses that arent restricted, and costs about £12 a month. If your EMS horse is on restricted grazing I'd look at one of the better spec PE balancers that contain vitamin e as this will be missing in their diet. You need to add salt but for most horses you dont need to buy a specific electrolyte. And you absolutely dont need muscle building supplements.

If you are really concerned then they are equine nutritionists, independent ones, who will look at and review your diet plans.

Jus tot say, as above, my advice comes from an independent equine nutritionist who is a practicing vet, and has been used very successfully on a large rehab yard, for horses with EMS and laminitis.
I would never suggest something I knew to be potentially harmful to a horse - I have enough experience and knowledge not to. I learned so much from my time working with Dr De Pury, and the transformation in my rehab cases was quite frankly astonishing. I am merely sharing the knowledge I gained from her, that has worked for me on hundreds of rehab cases.

 

[outdoor girl]

That’s very very promising thank you, our biggest concern was turnout. Any tips for keeping a muzzle on? She’s a very clever Welsh mare ?

Mine's a Section D and worked out that if she rubbed her head just behind the ear when she rolled, the muzzle AND the headcollar would come off. At this time I was using a leather headcollar thinking that if she caught it, it would break. I swapped it for a field safe nylon headcollar with break points and BINGO!!! She's not worked this one out so far. I think it could be because it's thinner than the leather one and not as easy to rub off. I make sure the noseband is above the top of the muzzle and that it's quite tight, but not so tight as to restrict her in any way. Good luck

 

[Haphazardhacker]

If you are talking about Chloe then she used to be my vet and she’s fantastic, there’s quite literally nothing she doesn’t know about nutrition.

 

[Auslander]

Jus tot say, as above, my advice comes from an independent equine nutritionist who is a practicing vet, and has been used very successfully on a large rehab yard, for horses with EMS and laminitis.
I would never suggest something I knew to be potentially harmful to a horse - I have enough experience and knowledge not to. I learned so much from my time working with Dr De Pury, and the transformation in my rehab cases was quite frankly astonishing. I am merely sharing the knowledge I gained from her, that has worked for me on hundreds of rehab cases.

Adding my twopennorth - I use Chloe as well - she worked for my vet practice first, and I've used her as a nutritionist as well. I have several EMS horses, and the diet she recommended for them has worked a treat. I feed the horse in front of me - my own horse is on Equimins Advance Complete, because he looks great on it, but most of the others are on Topspec Comprehensive - along with Emerald Green Alfalfa and grass nuts. I don't give huge hard feeds, so they don't pick up much in the way of calories from it. I have never experienced any problems feeding alfalfa, although I am aware that many people think it's the devil.

 

[AmeliaA]

Adding my twopennorth - I use Chloe as well - she worked for my vet practice first, and I've used her as a nutritionist as well. I have several EMS horses, and the diet she recommended for them has worked a treat. I feed the horse in front of me - my own horse is on Equimins Advance Complete, because he looks great on it, but most of the others are on Topspec Comprehensive - along with Emerald Green Alfalfa and grass nuts. I don't give huge hard feeds, so they don't pick up much in the way of calories from it. I have never experienced any problems feeding alfalfa, although I am aware that many people think it's the devil.

I’ve had my fist consultation with Chloe last month but unfortunately haven’t had any updates since and no diet plan yet. She emailed me at the end of last month to say she was having some family issues she had to deal with but I can only wait so long. I ran out of feed last week and don’t don’t want to buy another expensive bag of balancer she wanted to change anyway. I hope I hear something soon because she seemed so lovely and knowledgeable

 

[AmeliaA]

Adding my twopennorth - I use Chloe as well - she worked for my vet practice first, and I've used her as a nutritionist as well. I have several EMS horses, and the diet she recommended for them has worked a treat. I feed the horse in front of me - my own horse is on Equimins Advance Complete, because he looks great on it, but most of the others are on Topspec Comprehensive - along with Emerald Green Alfalfa and grass nuts. I don't give huge hard feeds, so they don't pick up much in the way of calories from it. I have never experienced any problems feeding alfalfa, although I am aware that many people think it's the devil.

I’ve had my fist consultation with Chloe last month but unfortunately haven’t had any updates since and no diet plan yet. She emailed me at the end of last month to say she was having some family issues she had to deal with but I can only wait so long. I ran out of feed last week and don’t don’t want to buy another expensive bag of balancer she wanted to change anyway. I hope I hear something soon because she seemed so lovely and knowledgeable

 

[NOISYGIRL2]

is what I wanted feeding wrong? And would you feed oil instead of micronised linseed. Sorry this is all a bit confusing ?

You can feed either but micronised the charnwood one i have found the best less messy and can be increased/decreased as necessary. There's nothing wrong with your feed suggestion you made, the good doer I'd just make sure it had the balancer and a token handful of chaff/speedibeet whatever he/she likes. The main base for any diet is fibre so you're going down the right route. If you are feeding a vit and min supplement aswell, do you really need both ? the balancer should have all thats needed in it, thats worth checking. So whether they like chaff/mash/nuts etc you can adjust the quantity to suit both horses.

My horse looked fantastic on topspec fibre plus cubes along with senior balancer, he put weight on in about a month, unfortunately he was a fussy sod and went off it after 18 months was gutted. He loved to give me problems finding feed he would eat, think we tried them all.

I also liked purefeeds mix and nuts and they told me if he needed more condition to add speedibeet and micronised linseed

Some spillers chaffs are high calorie low sugar/starch, personally although good for the one that needs weight on, I'd be more inclined to pick a chaff thats lower in oil for the good doer and as you say add the microniesed linseed.

There will always be people who don't like so and so feed....... go with what suits you and your horses

 

[NOISYGIRL2]

That’s very very promising thank you, our biggest concern was turnout. Any tips for keeping a muzzle on? She’s a very clever Welsh mare ?

Have a look at the ultimate grazing muzzle, with the big nostril holes I don't think they feel so claustrophobic, mine wore one/similar bucket style for over 18 years. and if you still have trouble, duct tape on a headpiece from a bridle so you have the extra throat lash

 

[teddy_]

Nothing to add re your EMS horse but, I fed my not-so-great-doer TopSpec's 'Comprehensive Balancer' and it transformed him. He looked sublime and really was shining from the inside out.

I combined the balancer with 'TopChop Grass' and the 'Linseed Mash'.