Feeding experts - suggestions please

Kat

Kat

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I'm looking for suggestions for feeding my mare. She is now rising 5, she's a warmblood x (probably crossed with an irish sport or something) and stands about 15.3/16hh.

She is currently on the standard feed included with our livery, Hi-Fi Original, Unmolassed sugarbeet and heygates conditioning cubes. One round scoop of each twice a day. She also gets a glug of sunflower oil and magnesium.

We struggled to keep weight on her in autumn and although her weight is now about at the right place it has been suggested that she is needing a lot of feed to keep it there and maybe it would be worth cutting down on her cubes (she is getting 4kg a day in total) and giving her something else that she might do better on as well.

YO suggested Top Spec balancer which one of the other horses has in addition to the standard feed. I'm not sure that is what she needs as I thought balancers were more aimed at getting the right vitamins and minerals into a horse that has little or no hard feed and that they are low energy. I want something that will keep the weight on and help her build muscle without hotting her up.

She is in fairly light work, hacking for 1-2 hours twice a week and schooling for 30mins three times a week. She has enough energy to do this and is quite manageable to ride, but she can be a bit stressy in the stable so I'd like to avoid pumping her full of sugar!

She is turned out for about 6 hours a day but there isn't much grass at the moment. While she is in the stable she has ad lib haylage and is currently going through 18kgs a day.

Any suggestions gratefully received.
 
Well hifi original is molassed and I strongly suspect a store brand comp-cube would be too.

So to provide a low sugar feed that will help maintain condition, I would personally base it on an alfalfa based chaff (eg alfa oil), speedibeet, combining with topspec wouldn't hurt.

From there you could up the calorie content with the addition of something like Badminton triple top up (small quantity addition!).

Alternatively, if you are looking for a commercial mix/cube perhaps consider the allen & page (calm&condition), Spillars (slow response)
 
According to the Dengie website Hi-Fi Original contains Alfalfa :confused:

I appreciate that it is also molassed, but she is ok on it at the moment, no different to when I was using the unmolassed chaff from mollichaff.

I was more hoping for a suggestion of something to add rather than a complete new feed regime although if that is what she needs that is what she'll get. She is calm and sensible to ride, the only time she is stressy is at feed/turnout time in the morning, the rest of the time she's a sweetie. I'm worried that swapping feed for more low energy stuff will mean she drops weight again when we have only just got her right.
 
Sorry, trying to get all the info in! :)

Off to google triple top up now, have been looking at so many feed company websites!
 
Ah that looks like it might just do the job!

If anyone has any other suggestions I'd be interested to hear them but the triple top up sounds like what i want if I'm going to keep her on her normal feed.

Although given what you've said above ihatework I'm wondering about supplying all my own feed and getting alfa oil instead of the hi-fi....... if I was getting all my own feed rather than using what the yard provide what would you put with the alfa oil?

Sorry, I'm not very confident about feeding and mine is about the only one on the yard that we struggle to keep weight ON the others are all fairly good doers.
 
18kg of haylage a day:eek:and you are worrying about a little mollases in the feed:confused:When they go through a growth spurt ,you will not keep weight on them.Its normal. I would stick with your original diet.I suspect you arent really feeding 18 kg of haylage plus hard feed because that would give a daily DM intake regardless of any grazing ,of about 15kg which would be a heck of a lot for a 16hh warmblood.
 
No her haylage is being weighed daily and that is what she is getting! :eek: She doesn't seem to waste much either.

You'd think on that she would be the size of a house, but she isn't. I obviously don't want to limit her haylage and have her standing with no forage, especially not first thing in the morning when she is prone to stress.

We bought her this time last year and she was in rather poor condition, but then over summer she was out 24/7 and barely wanted to eat when she came in so she was just getting a handful of nuts and some chaff as a token feed and she looked great.
 
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I have a very similar-sounding horse who is on a very similar diet, but possibly doing a little more work than yours and starting to lack a bit of energy. I am planning to start adding a little oil (probably just supermarket veg oil, cos I am cheap ;)) to each feed to see if this does the trick. The Badminton Feeds triple top up stuff looks excellent, but seems to be mainly fat-based, so an oil might be a good (cheaper!) substitute?
 
Claracanter, I wondered about kindred but someone said their horse wouldn't eat it. Plus I would have to buy it mail order which hikes the price.......
 
Kat said:
Claracanter, I wondered about kindred but someone said their horse wouldn't eat it. Plus I would have to buy it mail order which hikes the price.......
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Don't you have a feed merchant near you that stocks it?

Have a look on the SimpleSystems website, they give feeding advice specifically for warmbloods, might be worth a try
 
If the horse has a bright eye and a gleam to its coat ,ignore the fact that it may occasionaly look a bit thinner than you might expect from an adult horse. IT IS GROWING. this will happen. fwiw, I suspect that a lot of metabolic disorders in older horses are due to overfeeding while they are in the growth stage.I would leave well alone,unless the horse becomes thin. Think "teenager" here, can eat and drink everything under the sun and doesnt put on an ounce!(Bastards,I hate them).
 
Just out of interest, is she ever girthy, grumpy, unexplained explosions when worked? Any ulcer symptoms at all? I ask because my TB was eating a smilier weight of quite dry haylage and not leaving a scrap, since he's been on gastrogard he's eating a lot less and he's put weight on. Just a thought..
 
maggiesmum said:
Just out of interest, is she ever girthy, grumpy, unexplained explosions when worked? Any ulcer symptoms at all? I ask because my TB was eating a smilier weight of quite dry haylage and not leaving a scrap, since he's been on gastrogard he's eating a lot less and he's put weight on. Just a thought..
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No unexplained explosions, she is extremely good under saddle and the worst we ever have is a bit of a moment in canter transitions which I assume are just her being a baby and getting her legs sorted.

Not girthy, we swapped her from an elasticated humane girth to a stubben cord girth because the old one was rubbing/pinching but she is fine when you girth up.

Only grumpy when her nextdoor neighbour winds her up! Generally a fairly happy individual as mares go.

Her only behaviour of concern is the stressy behaviour in the morning which results in a trashed bed. What other signs or symptoms might there be?
 
Could you split her feed into 3 feeds?

A scoop of cubes is about the max a horse can cope with in one meal, so adding a scoop of chaff and sugar beet to that will mean a lot of feed will be being pushed through without being properly digested.

Also, just as a word of warning, so that you don't fall into the same trap I did - I have a horse the same age and size (ISH) who was also having a growth spurt and looking a bit lean back in Nov/Dec. I tried to put condition on him by switching his dengie hi fi to Alfa A molasses free (he'd previously had a scoop of Alfa A in his old home) and built it up to 3-4 scoops, over two feeds. The short version is that it completely sent him off his head, poor boy. :( He was like something possessed :( I think it's the alfalfa pellets in the stuff (he has had alfalfa in other products, like lucie nuts and the alfa a in his old home) but I have now cut all alfalfa from his feed to be on the safe side. Thankfully he is back to the lovely horse I bought, albeit we've had to take a step back to rebuilt his (and my) confidence. I thought I was doing the right thing by using a product that was high oil and high fibre instead of starchy conditioning cubes... doh! :rolleyes:

What works of my boy (who is also on ab lib haylage) is a balancer (partly for the probiotics), speedibeet, micronised linseed (I used some mint powder at first, to tempt him to eat it) and mollichaff calmer. The chaff does have some molasses in it, but probably less than you're feeding now in the hig fi original. It has soya oil coating it too, which is good for condition. It also has magnesium in it, so if you fed a reasonable quantity you would have no need to add more.

If you want to try the micronised linseed to see if she'll eat it, then contact John at Horseheath and ask for some free samples. You could try the neat linseed, the lingold and perhaps also the full fat soya. Then you'll know if she'll eat them, before you buy :) John is very helpful.

http://www.gravenhorse.co.uk/index.htm
 
Thanks Puppy!

She has had mollichaff calmer before and likes it, so it is on my radar as an alternative, as was the mollichaff condition. I spoke to their reps at YHL and they were really helpful and sent me away with various samples.

I've heard a few reports of bad experiences with alfalfa based products, either bad reactions or horses just refusing to eat it so that it interesting.

I'll try getting some samples of linseed as it is something that seems to get good feedback, as long as the horse will eat it!

I can ask the yard about splitting the feed into three, I'm sure they wouldn't mind it is just the practicality of giving her maximum turnout and them having time to give the feeds sufficiently spaced out. I might have to ask them to leave one for me to give after I've ridden in the evening. Having said that if I switch her onto something that she doesn't need such huge quantities of then maybe it won't be an issue.

Someone has sent me a PM about pure feeds and their site looks interesting, it would hopefully mean smaller feeds. Although your suggestion is interesting too.

ARGH! Soooo indecisive!
 
Hi there, I would suggest you stick to what you are currently feeding and make a few adjustments. As previously suggested try changing to HiFi oil this way your providing calories in the form of fibre and oil which are slow releasing energy sources so wont make your horse fizz up! I would carry on with the low molasssed beet and if you were going to try triple top up swap this for the conditioning cubes your currently on as these do a similar job so your horse wont need both.

Use a conditioning feed that is low in starch and based on fibre and oil as sources of energy (cubes are better than mixes for this as you are already rightly using) and also with a good source of protein which will help build muscle tone.

And finally as an addition to this I would add a probiotic to support the digestive system which will help your horse to get the most of the diet by promoting fibre digestion and nutrient uptake. A concentrated powder form would be better as you've already got quite a bulk to the diet and around 2kg per feed is the top rate anymore than this and it is difficult for the horse to digest all this at one time due to the stomachs capacity.

Alot of balancers contain probiotics which will be ideal if you are using less than the recommended dose of feed by helping to provide the correct balance of vits and mins as well. Linseed oil is a great one for condition as well as previously said too.

I have the same problem with my mare who is 22 and struggles maintaining her weight. She is currently on topspec cool conditioning cubes, molichaff, speedibeet, think pink and linseed oil. She's doing brilliantly on this and I've managed to get on top her weightloss.

Hope this helps and best of luck :)
 
I get a bit fed up with the "low starch" brigade,they have missed one of the single most important factors in equine digestion. OK ,the horse gets idealy ,most of its energy and protein from the action of bacteria on fibre. Unfortunately for the horse, once the fibre has moved past a certain point in the small intestine ,THE HORSE CANNOT ABSORB THE NUTRIENTS PRODUCED. The only thing the horse recieves is the heat output from fermentation(though this is still extremely valuable to the horse). It is frequently touted that since horses lack sufficient enzymes in the stomach to deal with starch,starch must be bad. Nothing could be further from the truth. The reason that horses do not actively breakdown starches in the stomach is that they get a much greater benefit by not doing so. The readily fermented starches initiate a vigourous fermentation of the fibre in the small intestine and permit considerably more nutrients to be absorbed before the fibre passes to an area where they cannot be absorbed.Research (Wolfe, Tisserand) has shown that an increase of 25% extra energy can be expected.This is the scientific principle behind the old adage of feeding little and often.
You can feed sugarbeet,and gain a bit of extra energy because the fibre is readily broken down ,you can add oil which has a very high energy content, but is difficult to break down and therefore how much energy from it is only available as heat. But feed Oats little and often and watch the digestive system light up!The rate of fibre breakdown accelerates and the pay back is a huge amount of absorbable nutrients,even non protein nitrogen(which is a large proportion of the crude protein in alfalfa)is converted into valuable aminoacids.
Its no wonder that some ponies go crazy on a handfull of oats,its not simply the extra energy in the oats ,but the fact that the oats turn their fibre diet into rocket fuel:eek:Of course, horses in heavy work ,getting lots of concentrate ,show no such reaction ,because there is no sudden rebate of energy due to a relatively small increase of feed.
 
The Heygates conditioning cubes require a lot to be fed in one day to meet all vit+min levels - she possibly isn't getting this; therefore balancer may help you.

Veg oil is a good starter, or try Baileys Outshine.

Has she been worm counted recently and has the dentist been recently?

Is the livery yard actually feeding her as they should be...
 
Mike007 said:
I get a bit fed up with the "low starch" brigade,they have missed one of the single most important factors in equine digestion. OK ,the horse gets idealy ,most of its energy and protein from the action of bacteria on fibre. Unfortunately for the horse, once the fibre has moved past a certain point in the small intestine ,THE HORSE CANNOT ABSORB THE NUTRIENTS PRODUCED. The only thing the horse recieves is the heat output from fermentation(though this is still extremely valuable to the horse). It is frequently touted that since horses lack sufficient enzymes in the stomach to deal with starch,starch must be bad. Nothing could be further from the truth. The reason that horses do not actively breakdown starches in the stomach is that they get a much greater benefit by not doing so. The readily fermented starches initiate a vigourous fermentation of the fibre in the small intestine and permit considerably more nutrients to be absorbed before the fibre passes to an area where they cannot be absorbed.Research (Wolfe, Tisserand) has shown that an increase of 25% extra energy can be expected.This is the scientific principle behind the old adage of feeding little and often.
You can feed sugarbeet,and gain a bit of extra energy because the fibre is readily broken down ,you can add oil which has a very high energy content, but is difficult to break down and therefore how much energy from it is only available as heat. But feed Oats little and often and watch the digestive system light up!The rate of fibre breakdown accelerates and the pay back is a huge amount of absorbable nutrients,even non protein nitrogen(which is a large proportion of the crude protein in alfalfa)is converted into valuable aminoacids.
Its no wonder that some ponies go crazy on a handfull of oats,its not simply the extra energy in the oats ,but the fact that the oats turn their fibre diet into rocket fuel:eek:Of course, horses in heavy work ,getting lots of concentrate ,show no such reaction ,because there is no sudden rebate of energy due to a relatively small increase of feed.
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There is a reason I am part of the 'low starch brigade' as you so put it and that is because my horse is prone to azoturia and is on a similar workload to Kat's horse so requires a low starch diet and I am talking from what has worked for me which I thought was the whole point of forums!

Oats are a highly digestible source of energy to horse and fed little and often I would doubt this would pass into the large intestine as an energy source for the bugs as it will have been digested and absorbed in the small intestine.

Why would you want it to feed the bugs and increase the rate of fibre fermentation? The by product of microbial starch fermentation is lactic acid. This will reduce the pH and cull off the bacteria leading to endotoxins entering the bloodstream which can cause laminitis and colic!

Horses are hindgut fermenters so fibre is broken down in the caecum in the large intestine not in the small intestine. And horses can utilize the VFAs from this they dont just get heat!

Im not against using starch in the horses diet in moderation especially if the horse is under a higher workload and requires a greater supply of energy.
 
wench said:
The Heygates conditioning cubes require a lot to be fed in one day to meet all vit+min levels - she possibly isn't getting this; therefore balancer may help you.

Veg oil is a good starter, or try Baileys Outshine.

Has she been worm counted recently and has the dentist been recently?

Is the livery yard actually feeding her as they should be...
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She is getting more than the recommended amount of the cubes - she's on 4kg a day so should have all the vits and mins. She is now just an ok weight but it is a huuuuuge ration to maintain her weight in relatively light work.

She's already having oil, and it has really helped, plus her coat is amazing!

She has been worm counted, the dentist is due, couldn't do her when booked as she needed sedating so need to book the vet on a day when I can be there.

I'm as sure as I can be that the yard are feeding her as they should be. I turn up unannounced regularly and her feed always looks as it should. They recently re-weighed their scoops just to prove that they weren't over stating what she is getting.
 
TillyTrot said:
Oats are a highly digestible source of energy to horse and fed little and often I would doubt this would pass into the large intestine as an energy source for the bugs as it will have been digested and absorbed in the small intestine.

Why would you want it to feed the bugs and increase the rate of fibre fermentation? The by product of microbial starch fermentation is lactic acid. This will reduce the pH and cull off the bacteria leading to endotoxins entering the bloodstream which can cause laminitis and colic!

Horses are hindgut fermenters so fibre is broken down in the caecum in the large intestine not in the small intestine. And horses can utilize the VFAs from this they dont just get heat!

.
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Why ? Because peer reviewed ,and separately verified research shows otherwise.
 
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