Feeding question.... paranoia is setting in.....

[{97702}]

I was reflecting today as I watched the greyhound girls eat their tea, I have now lost 4 greyhounds/lurchers with quite similar symptoms.

Jura in April 2008 - never found out what was wrong with her, the vet was useless, but she got thinner and thinner and in the end I had her PTS

Talisker in December 2008 - got thinner and thinner, also had chronic diarrhoea, was PTS and biopsies proved he had lymphoma of the gut

Islay in May 2017 - developed megaesophagus

Hoover in September 2018 - got thinner and thinner, again no diagnosis but seemed likely to be cancer as very similar to Talisker and Jura

It has made me wonder about what I feed them - at the moment they are on Skinners, as the cost of raw got to be prohibitive, but as I am shortly going to be horseless again this might be back as an option. Is this a diet problem? Is it a breed problem? I really can't face going through all of this again with Amy and Flick, who are both around 11 or 12 now

 

[Clodagh]

They are over a ten year span, though? And they were all old I think? Don't overthink it!

 

[{97702}]

Hmmm well yes I suppose when you put it like that..... one of my worst faults is that I always overthink everything Jura was 11, Talisker was about the same age (he was a rescue lurcher so I never knew his real age), Islay was 13 and Hoover was 12

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I had this chat with the neighbour when I first started feeding raw. Jake had just been PTS after his cancer diagnosis She told me about her gsds that she bred, raw fed, died of cancer. You know me, I’m quite keen to feed stuff without nasties, but unless you can trace the life and origin of the animal, it’s hard to be 100% on there being no nasties eg antibiotics etc.

Just get what you think is good and don’t stress over it. The other dogs were older, weren’t they?

 

[Aru]

Everyone and everything has to die of something. We don't just stop for no reason. No one actually just dies in their sleep theres always an underlying cause of the bodys demise.In old age im humans its the big 4..cancer cardiac(heart) cold(pneumonias and infections) and kidneys...but theres always something that causes the stop. its the same in animals they just have a shorter shelf life unfortunately.

We are essentially just biological machines...new machines rarely die for wear and tear its almost always trauma or unusual things..older machines start to get wear and tear and glitches.Cancers are common as we get older as they are essentially a glitch in the system.ie we have a system thats designed to kill off cells when they meet the end of their useful cycle, in cancer cells the off switch fails the cells dont die and begin to replicate instead. The older you get the more likely you are to run into issues.

So basically its unlikely to be anything you have done!those are very nospecific signs of illness,all of which are common in older dogs and could match in with a very long list of potential issues.try not to overthink it!

 

[{97702}]

Thank you Aru 😊😊 i suppose it is because I’m used to cavaliers, who don’t seem to get these sort of symptoms. I shall stop over thinking and carry on enjoying my hounds 😊

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Both my last two dogs that made it to old bones had the same/similar symptoms Lev, one was a collie the other a setter-both were 12, I didnt do masses of investigations for either for different reasons-just supported them until I felt quality of life was gone. You hear on boards and such about those dogs that make it to their late teens but its not usual ime, most medium-medium large dogs (ie 20kg +) make it to about 12/13 and thats a good innings. smaller dogs are different.

 

[{97702}]

Thank you MoC

 

[meggymoo]

We've lost two retired greys now, one (age 7 or 8) had a tumour in her pericardium (?) and we were told that surgery, if successful could give her another 3 months. We weren't going to put her through that and pts before she had fully come round from sedation. The second one just slipped on the hall floor and broke her leg (not even the one she landed on). Our vet told us that for various reasons, her gut instinct was telling her that there was an under-lying problem, most likely bone cancer. At 12 years old, we simply couldn't put her through the mill and she wouldn't have coped with 'box rest' at all and decided again on pts. Heart- breaking. At least I was able to hold both in my arms as it was done. They were both fed on decent quality food, though B was very finicky and didn't decide until dinner was in front of her whether she would deign to eat the kibble or the wet variety, or even whether it was a "sardines, fed by hand by the servant" day. Our lab went to meet his maker at the age of 16, when arthritis just got too much to control.
I do sometimes wonder whether there is any link to breed of dog or what they did (ie racing) and what they were therefore fed, and cancer. I seem to have heard of so many greyhounds having it, though that may just be that having greyhounds myself, I just pick up on those snippets more! I wonder if there has been any sort of research done into it.

 

[Aru]

The bone cancer link with the greys is likely genetic andnsize related. Osteosarcomas are seen most commonly in specific breeds-rottweilers greyhounds and danes being the big offenders and is relatively uncommon in small breeds..id imagine as we learn more and more about genes and how they intertwine with cell replication control, cancer prediction risk should get easier in animals and humans..Many of the cancers follow the same pattern and Certain breeds have breed cancers and have had for some time..decades of research in fact..To the point the golden retrievers esp in the usa have had massive breed profiles done to try and identify why lymphoma and other tumours are so common within the breed and to try and identify the triggers.

There have been massive leaps in the last 10 20 years in human cancers and how we treat them because of genes and genetics,they are even working on computor programmes that profile your genetics and tumour type in order to pick what type of chemo or radiation therpy is most likely to help in humans.The links been made already to the gene that predisposes women to ovarian and breast cancer(angeline jolie made it more famous and raised a lot of awareness) in veterinary fitzpatricks new oncology hospital in the uk is likely to be a massive contributor to that sort of research in the future.

What triggers the gene shift to go from normal killing replication cycle to cancer is still not something we can say for sure. I reckon theres a chance of massive leaps forward in this research to that question over the coming decades though.....and most likely multiple causes and predispositions.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Hmmm well yes I suppose when you put it like that..... one of my worst faults is that I always overthink everything Jura was 11, Talisker was about the same age (he was a rescue lurcher so I never knew his real age), Islay was 13 and Hoover was 12

I think they all lived to a good old age so I wouldn't worry that it's anything you have done

 

[{97702}]

Thanks again Aru that is really interesting - a Google search showed quite few references to osteosarcoma in greyhounds but not much reference to other sorts of cancer. I almost wish I had asked for a PM on both Jura and Hoover, sadly it didn’t seem right at the time. I know it wouldn’t have changed anything, but as usual in life it is the ‘not knowing’ that makes it difficult.

I did read an article which suggested that greyhounds are considered ‘ageing’at 7-8 years old, often due to the tough life they have had in racing before being adopted - maybe that is something else I need to accept more. I expect dogs to routinely live until 13 or 14 years old and I worry that I’ve not done everything I can when my dogs don’t achieve that age, but perhaps that is an unreasonable expectation on my part

 

[meggymoo]

Thank you Aru - an interesting comment.

Lev - Its the horrible price we have to pay for the love of a dog. And its so easy (and no help at all) to blame ourselves. If I hadn't shouted at our puppy, B wouldn't have turned so quickly and slipped..............

 

[some show]

Just an anecdotal thing about raw feeding, when I adopted Joe he was fed JWB kibble and I then had him on various other ones (skinners, millie's WH etc), but he had this hyperkeratosis thing with his paws which meant every couple of weeks the skin would start peeling off one or other of his feet and he'd have to go on bedrest etc. It was awful, and I thought he'd have it for life. I changed him to raw about 6 months after I got him because of digestion issues and didn't realise until a couple of months in that his feet had stopped peeling...and they've been absolutely fine ever since. So I do feel that the change of diet must have done something good for him there! I can understand the prohibitive cost thing, though, I don't know how anyone manages to feed multiple greyhounds. Joe's a big lad at 38/39kg and I must spend about £1.50 - £2 a day on his food.

 

[{97702}]

Yep that’s how it was for me Ellie - I would buy 1lb packs at 80p per pack minimum (usually more) and Hoover at 35 lbs would be having 3 packs a day. Plus the three girls at average 2 packs a day each. That’s part of the reason I’m planning to cut down to 2 dogs (newbie Mattie when he arrives plus Millie) over the next few years, so I can be sure they absolutely never have to compromise on anything!

Well, that is the plan..... bearing in mind what a total sucker I am for a sweet face in need of a good home.... 🙄😄

 

[some show]

Thank goodness for suckers like you! 😄 I would love to have at least one more, but I've only got one couch and don't earn enough to keep them well fed, the gannets that they are 😄. I can't wait to hear more about Mattie!!

 

[Littlefloof]

When I got the dog in my profile picture, she was fed by her previous owners on Baker's Complete. 🤮
She was extraordinarily fussy when settling in, as well as being scared of more or less everything. I tried feeding her raw (prepackaged and home made), Canagen, Origen, Carnilove and lots of other highly rated foods, but the only thing she would deign to eat was Arden Grange chicken kibble. (And stolen bacon rolls, but that's another story.) She was underweight, and like a lot of Sibes, had, and still has, a very sensitive gut.
While sorting out her jabs, I told the very pro-raw-feeding vet this tale of woe; pragmatically and a bit unexpectedly he said "feed her what she will eat." (Presumably meaning Arden Grange, not bacon rolls.)
Sometimes, maybe, we worry too much. While there is a strong, and heartbreaking association between some breeds and some cancers, our dogs die of cancer because on the whole they aren't dying young of preventable disease. Much like people.
Best of luck with Marty / Sharky / Dyson.