Feeling fed up, crap start to 2019

[milliepops]

thanks for that, very interesting. Mine also came ruined to some extent, I think these "heavier" native types are easy to ruin as people assume they are too big and thick to be nervous.

definitely and I think because they often respond instinctively by throwing themselves around to get free when they feel trapped (mentally or physically), people mis read that behaviour and think they are just being evil or naughty or whatever, rather than understanding that it sometimes comes from a place of deep insecurity, the complete opposite to what you might expect. Mine still wants to climb into my pocket in a new environment, she gets over attached to her horse buddies, she's generally not an easy horse to have around but we've found her niche and that works for both of us, and she's extremely cute too which helps

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Nice to read that Milliepops, so glad shes going so well!

I bought my welshy from the lady who bought him direct from the breeder. He has had the perfect life, never abused, never hurt, lived the luxury life too. I'm sure thats why hes the way he is, spoilt. He was only 3, I didn't pay alot as she needed to get rid and he went from £1500 to £500 in the space of a few weeks. He use to walk straight in the box with no lead rope and loved the trailer, never scared etc. It was only until he watched my other horse refuse to load once it seemed he took it all on and never forgot. He was easy to back, done it myself.. hes excellent to hack and has good ground manors surprisingly. Hes actually quite a nice horse apart his weird catching routine and anything to do with the trailer. To hunt, he was above excellent and complimented by others last year. I had a lesson last year with a very good dressage rider who said he was HOYS potential.

I'm certain he just 'doesn't want' to do it as he can be like it with a lot of things but has matured over the years, hes 7 now so should know better. If he was scared it would be easier, but he isn’t scared. The lady I had before to help with loading done the following. Ask to walk forwards, if won’t walk, go backwards, then repeat, stay calm but he'll happily do that for 30 minutes and doesn’t solve anything. Same as Milliepops, if he gets crazy hes a ticking time bomb. I nearly tried a chiffney previously as he doesn’t rear just drags you around and thought it may help. The thought of spending more money on his loading for him to resort to the same within a week doesn’t feel worth it.

I have no problem riding him and don’t have the funds to pay a freelance rider, he can school to quite a nice level when hes going nicely.

 

[SpringArising]

If you want to sell the Welsh I can PM you the name of the people who bought mine from me. Very experienced, nice people not a million miles from you.

 

[JFTDWS]

I honestly can't imagine allowing a horse to drag me around. I completely agree with MP about making allowances for horses who have been screwed over by their lives (I've got / have a few with interesting little quirks / throwbacks to their previous lives, which you work around, of course), but a horse which came to you with decent manners, and hasn't had a traumatic incident / physical issue to cause that to change...

Why do you persist with a dually if he drags you around in it? I'm not being deliberately provocative here - I'm curious. I have one whose default includes bogging off in hand (he's a native thug, and he came with a history of it) - he is always handled in a bridle if there's any risk of that sort of behaviour, because I can hold him in a bridle (and I can't in anything else).

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I honestly can't imagine allowing a horse to drag me around. I completely agree with MP about making allowances for horses who have been screwed over by their lives (I've got / have a few with interesting little quirks / throwbacks to their previous lives, which you work around, of course), but a horse which came to you with decent manners, and hasn't had a traumatic incident / physical issue to cause that to change...

Why do you persist with a dually if he drags you around in it? I'm not being deliberately provocative here - I'm curious. I have one whose default includes bogging off in hand (he's a native thug, and he came with a history of it) - he is always handled in a bridle if there's any risk of that sort of behaviour, because I can hold him in a bridle (and I can't in anything else).

Very true JFTD-WS. Please trust that they do have good manners in general. My welsh turns into a different kettle of fish when it comes to loading and I feel like an ant holding a dragon (and a t**t at that I'm sure the entire yard laugh at me) even though I do not get angry he still shows his strength. Good question. Now you've made me think. I keep him in a dually as I have nothing else that I have control in that isn't deemed as 'cruel'. A bridle makes no difference, mind I haven't tried clipping to the bridle in a while but previously I tried and stopped as it worried me hes going to injure himself with his bridle on, he almost fights more. The only thing I haven't tried is a chiffney, someone actually recommended one that worked wonders on their welsh loading and they never dragged them around again but so many have said they're cruel. He doesn't rear, the only thing he does is drag you about. If I can stop the dragging about I'm certain he'll be easy to load. I always hear 'they should want to load' but can't see this ever happening with him, he is so opinionated. I previously loaded him daily to beat the problem and it did help, he was loading himself within 2 weeks and then took him for a lesson, back to square one as he didn't want to leave his new friends. I don't have the time to load him every day for the rest of time.

 

[DirectorFury]

It was only until he watched my other horse refuse to load once it seemed he took it all on and never forgot.

Have you tried different trailers (doors and a step up rather than ramps, side loads) or a lorry since the loading problem started? Mine used to be bad to load with a ramp so I got a trailer with doors and a step instead; she also has to have the front ramp open - with that setup she'll load herself. With the ramp shut I won't get her within 10m of the back of the trailer!

This technique also works if she does have to load with a ramp

I've no solution for the dragging issue, you could try a 'Be Nice' halter but that's probably just upping the ante a bit more and won't work.

 

[SpringArising]

Chifneys aren't cruel. I have to assume that anyone who says that is inexperienced. What IS cruel, is running the risk of your horse getting away from you and being hit by a car. I led my Welsh in a Chifney at all times. 70% of the time he was alright but he could suddenly just think 'F*ck this, I'm off', and would try to canter away from you. He knew damn well he couldn't get away with that in one and they are way more effective than leading in a bridle too.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Have you tried different trailers (doors and a step up rather than ramps, side loads) or a lorry since the loading problem started? Mine used to be bad to load with a ramp so I got a trailer with doors and a step instead; she also has to have the front ramp open - with that setup she'll load herself. With the ramp shut I won't get her within 10m of the back of the trailer!

This technique also works if she does have to load with a ramp

I've no solution for the dragging issue, you could try a 'Be Nice' halter but that's probably just upping the ante a bit more and won't work.

I haven't tried a step up trailer as friends only have new 506 or 5011, mind the 5011 made no difference. I don't know of anyone with a step up and my other horse doesn't mind the ramp so don't really want to switch. I tried a lorry and couldn't get him anywhere near it. He also now won't load at all if the partition is in, so the partition is always out. Hes only ever traveled in a trailer even with previous owner. He is better with the front ramp open than if shut, but he still takes ages to load and will drag you ragged until he decides and just walks in, chilled as a cucumber.

That video is great but that horse is very good, my welsh would of been trying to drag me by now. I do the whole 'leg the lunge line go don't let him see you've moved or he'll think hes stronger than you' but its very difficult to do.

Chifneys aren't cruel. I have to assume that anyone who says that is inexperienced. What IS cruel, is running the risk of your horse getting away from you and being hit by a car. I led my Welsh in a Chifney at all times. 70% of the time he was alright but he could suddenly just think 'F*ck this, I'm off', and would try to canter away from you. He knew damn well he couldn't get away with that in one and they are way more effective than leading in a bridle too.

Thanks Springarising. Someone made me feel like a bad owner saying it was cruel. After a good think i'm going to try the chifney, a friend on the yard has one so worth a go. He nearly got loose on the road last week and I think that scared me and my boyfriend a bit as a tractor was coming around the bend and he was being a prat.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Put a chifney on the creature! He won't get away from you in that! It's not harsh, it's not severe, it uses poll and tongue pressure if they pull. If they don't pull it does nothing. Pressure and release. They aren't just used for rearers, even though they are marketed as anti-rearing bits. We use them at the races. All horses out of their lorries or stables have to be bitted with either a chifney or a bridle.

 

[Cortez]

Chifney's aren't necessarily harsh, providing the people operating them know what they're doing.

 

[ester]

If have no issue using a chifney either fwiw I’ve not needed to but of a yard of 10 horses 3 used them regularly so I suspect it might depend on who you are around (and feeling a twat in front of).

The making them go backwards is a very monty Roberts thing, I’m not sure it works for the brighter beasts or as you say works long term. The tricky one I knew was also better to go up and down the ramp at random times while at shows etc.

From what you say about him I can totally understand why you had people interested (if they are Welshie inclined ) and why you might want to cut your losses. They will all likely cause some sometime stress but overall it needs to be enjoyable.

 

[Tarragon]

I have a feeling that some of the issues are there because your heart isn't in it, for whatever reason.
Perhaps it is your relationship with the horse, or perhaps you haven't got the resources, whether time or money, to devote to, or want to spend, solving the problems, or something else or a combination. Whatever it is you have reached an impasse and I cannot see things improving.
So, perhaps you should be asking yourself a couple of questions (1) "would I want to own and ride this horse IF the loading issue was resolved?" and (2) "Am I prepared to wait and find out?" and if the answer is No to either then I would consider selling him on.
I own a tricky Exmoor Pony that I have had since he was 3, backed myself and he is now 13. We have reached an agreement between us and both of us have had to make compromises over the years and now we are happy as we work within our accepted boundaries. I think that he is the way he is because I wasn't good enough 10 years ago to take him on and I am pretty sure that someone else with more experience than me or just a different approach would have a much better pony now than the one I have got. I fell into the trap of thinking that I was the only person who was going to get through to him (or probably just pigheadedness on my part - I have started so now I will finish!!) whereas in reality perhaps I should have realised years ago that, in this case, I didn't have enough experience, found a better home for him (as in better suited) and found myself an easier pony! Sometimes I wonder what I would be doing now if I had done that but mostly we are both content with our lot.

 

[milliepops]

I honestly can't imagine allowing a horse to drag me around. I completely agree with MP about making allowances for horses who have been screwed over by their lives
.

allowances in understanding, not in basic ground rules
I put a chifney on K, while she was learning not to simply erupt and bog off... you still need to be very tuned in to subtle changes in behaviour though else you end up with a horse sodding off anyway but this time with a potentially very dangerous bit of kit in its mouth. i had 2 reins, one on the headcollar and one to the chifney so I could choose which to use and would view it as an emergency brake when she forgot how to be reasonable.

 

[Michen]

You may see people going out and having fun you have no idea what they’ve gone through to get there. For me it was having to put down a broken ex racer, having to take someone to court for misselling a horse, loosing my horse of a lifetime to a broken leg and then having to spend 18 months and a ton of money/tears/sweat on a barely broken youngster who I can honestly say I disliked for a long time.

Now I have a superb horse (said youngster!)that I would never be able to afford to buy as he is now.

But I’m under no illusions, horses are heartbreakers and who knows if we will ever have another fun day- there are no guarantees in life.

You have the power to change your situation if you wish, or if you really want to keep both horses- have a bit more determination to focus on the welsh and get him cracking. I got a professional involved with mine but I was 100% committed to doing a lot of the work myself and that included fixing a range of problems - one being travelling- twice a day every day I spent time with horse and lorry for 3 solid months.

It’ll only happen if you want it enough.

 

[milliepops]

It’ll only happen if you want it enough.

amen
it's the thing that keeps me slogging away with my awkward projects!

Michen, you SOOOOOO deserve all your happiness with Boggle.

 

[ester]

Having seen your post elsewhere please don't think I'm a stalker but I was one of the ones who thought you a bit mad to take him hunting in the circumstances but he did great iirc! He is also very smart, enough for a lot of people to think the trailering issues worth the effort to resolve.

And yes boggle, he does a very good impression of being an easy stress free horse to those who haven't had the whole story

 

[Templebar]

Just to add i haven't read the 2nd page, sorry if this is covered.

I took him for a 'birthday hack' last week which I could of cried about at the end. He was a sod to get into the box, had a nice hack and then to come home a nightmare, he went in after 20 minutes. Made me wish I never bothered.

I wanted to ask about this, you ssay he was a sod to get in and then after the hack a nightmare, but he went in after 20mins?

If that is the case it's not that bad, i would try as milliepops said ask and let him consider the question, but never make it feel under pressure, always go thinking you have all the time in the world its not a 5 minute job. To start don't go very far and if he doesn't load at the other end ride him home if you can. So it doesn't matter if he goes in or not. Knowing others with ones like this they often got their sandwiches out then the horse just walked in.

Maybe he doesn't like the trailer or the towing vehicle. Mine can be funny with a friends truck as the tow bar is a lot higher and she likes the top door on the front open so that is easy, but at times we put the whole ramp down. If his ground manners worsen when the trailer is involved then do stuff with a trailer around but don't load to start, i think in this case he might pick up on your anxiety.

Finally if your heart is not in it i would sell, they are a lot of money for you not to enjoy it.

 

[Michen]

amen
it's the thing that keeps me slogging away with my awkward projects!

Michen, you SOOOOOO deserve all your happiness with Boggle.

Thank goodness I didn’t sell him!!!!! 😄x

 

[milliepops]

If that is the case it's not that bad, i would try as milliepops said ask and let him consider the question, but never make it feel under pressure, always go thinking you have all the time in the world its not a 5 minute job. To start don't go very far and if he doesn't load at the other end ride him home if you can. So it doesn't matter if he goes in or not. Knowing others with ones like this they often got their sandwiches out then the horse just walked in.

Maybe he doesn't like the trailer or the towing vehicle. Mine can be funny with a friends truck as the tow bar is a lot higher and she likes the top door on the front open so that is easy, but at times we put the whole ramp down. If his ground manners worsen when the trailer is involved then do stuff with a trailer around but don't load to start, i think in this case he might pick up on your anxiety.

I think this is such a common thing and yes totally the handlers start to give off anxious vibes before even starting because everyone is a bit stressed that the horse might be a tit to load, and so you end up getting exactly what you deserve, if you see what I mean... keeping a lid on your own emotions is so hard but so important with a tricky loader, that and keeping their focus on the job, you see so many horses with 2 feet on the ramp but not even looking in the box, totally disengaged and you can just tell exactly what's going to happen.

 

[Leo Walker]

I had a bit of this at the weekend. I was watching people have a lovely time competing with their ponies and I was very envious. My tricky but brilliant pony jacked it in in the summer and I've had to start again with a youngster. Its knocked me back a good 18 months and it does feel a bit unfair when I worked so, so hard with the original pony and was so close to being where I wanted to be. But do you know what? the current pony is brilliant and will be a far superior pony to him, and in fact probably already is, because shes just so pleasant and easy to handle. I just need to put the work and time in with her. I think the difference is I like her and am looking forward to it. Someone asked to buy her on Sunday. I'd have made tripled my money with no effort at all, but theres not a snowballs chance in hell I would sell her!

Its very hard to sell them when you love them, but if its not the right horse then whats the point? Its far too much time and money and emotional investment if you arent getting to do the things you want to do. You've posted on and off about theses horses and I think deep down you know what you need to do.

Maybe set yourself a deadline of 6 weeks or so. Really try to crack the loading issue and work on building your relationship, and if its still not right then, sell.

 

[Michen]

Also op how much are you really practising the loading. Like I said, for three months I practised twice a day. Without fail. It was exhausting and every step forward had a half step back. I cannot even tell you how many tears of frustration I shed over it. I now have an utterly reliable traveller (his issue was never loading, he would load great and then go bonkers when shut in/left).

My point is there’s no quick fix and sometimes you really need to go all at a problem to get the results, practising every now and again just isn’t enough.

 

[JFTDWS]

allowances in understanding, not in basic ground rules

That's what I meant, really. You don't batter them or force them, because they don't deserve that (whether they have a dodgy background or not), you make allowances in what you ask of them, how quickly you expect progress etc - but you don't let them drag you around and be rude and dangerous.

 

[paddy555]

You may see people going out and having fun you have no idea what they’ve gone through to get there. For me it was having to put down a broken ex racer, having to take someone to court for misselling a horse, loosing my horse of a lifetime to a broken leg and then having to spend 18 months and a ton of money/tears/sweat on a barely broken youngster who I can honestly say I disliked for a long time.

Now I have a superb horse (said youngster!)that I would never be able to afford to buy as he is now.

But I’m under no illusions, horses are heartbreakers and who knows if we will ever have another fun day- there are no guarantees in life.

You have the power to change your situation if you wish, or if you really want to keep both horses- have a bit more determination to focus on the welsh and get him cracking. I got a professional involved with mine but I was 100% committed to doing a lot of the work myself and that included fixing a range of problems - one being travelling- twice a day every day I spent time with horse and lorry for 3 solid months.

It’ll only happen if you want it enough.

very very true. Michen are you sound yet?!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I regularly get envious of people out wit their horses. I nipped along to the Howe yesterday to pick up some horse food, there was a Showcross competition on (half show jumps, half rustic working hunter fences and you jump through from the indoor school to the outdoor to change phases!) And it looks like so much fun! But I don't have an equine fit enough to do it. In fact I have barely sat on mine at all this year due to a complete lack of time! But that is my fault, not theirs so I can look on as enviously as I like but the only reason I am not there is myself!

 

[Spottyappy]

OP,
I have welshies, and they are definitely an acquired taste!
Give them a millimetre and they will take a mile, and that is exactly what yours has learnt with the loading.
I suggest you try some of the above people’s ideas, as all could work.
For me, I would do some basic ground work with the trailer in view. Then, box the trailer in a corner, so the only way he has to go is in.
And, repeat daily. In as many different places and spaces as possible.
Blind folding is another method you could try.
Good luck, sounds like you have a great horse besides this issue. Let it become A non issue, or sell and get something else which you can enjoy.

 

[Michen]

very very true. Michen are you sound yet?!

I wouldn’t pass a vetting but I hunted this weekend and it stood up pretty well!!! So... cracking on!

 

[paddy555]

I wouldn’t pass a vetting but I hunted this weekend and it stood up pretty well!!! So... cracking on!

great, well done.

 

[The-Bookworm]

I've had SO many people help me over the years, many very experienced and one loading person. My cob I can understand due to his neck problem and he loads ok within a few minutes, he just is a bad traveler. My youngster is just a little s**t. He use to travel fine then learnt his power as he grew older. Hes a full up 15.2 and even with a dually on will happily drag 4 people around. I think i've tried it all, except a chiffney. He started walking straight into my 506 (partition out, serviced, all fine) with 2 lunge lines behind him. Now he won't go within a few 20ft of the box as he knows he has to go in as hates the lunge lines on his but. I've tried feeding him in there, doing it daily, its always worse away from home. I really do think its just him being a prat. He goes out in it frequently, as in weekly, I even tried boxing just around the block so he knew it wasn't to work and it made 0 difference. To add, he travels foot perfect doesn't even sweat and don't even know hes in there. I took him for a 'birthday hack' last week which I could of cried about at the end. He was a sod to get into the box, had a nice hack and then to come home a nightmare, he went in after 20 minutes. Made me wish I never bothered. Even if he was to load I wonder, as hes still a t**t with his spookiness, its all on his own terms which I've been told is very 'welshy'. Hes funny in the field, one day he'll follow me around like a puppy, next I won't get near him. Hes ace to hack even across main roads on his own and has given a few nice tests. I advertised him last year and had 4 separate people wanting to view him but cried at the thought of it and turned them away.



Hes increasingly stopping going downhill to rest a leg and feels uncomfortable, worse when I first get on him but then he'll have a day when hes full of it and feels fine, so couldn't work out if it was him being a prat or pain. Vet thinks something could be going on in the hock possibly so going to look this week when hes doing his teeth.

I have friends whos horses travel once a year and load perfect in my box.

Mine had locking stifles and she grew out of it.
I don't know how old this youngster is, but my first thoughts unless you have done it, back, tack and balance. How confident are they, are they bum high again, are they fit enough, foot sore if unshod.
With mine downhill has never been her thing, a lot slower. She lacks confidence.
Are you insured because if you investigate at this age, you could write off the whole leg.

 

[cbmcts]

Ah yes, silly welshies - it's the full on drama about everything that gets me. Nothing is ever 'oh let me have a think about that', it's OMG WE'RE DOOMED I TELL YOU, DOOMED...and with my boy that was about a daffodil, a single daffodil or a squirrel or a rock or a car that wasn't quite the right colour. You get my drift.

I never really cracked it with mine TBH. I owned him from weaning till he was put down at 24 and I'd be surprised if he did the equivalent of a full years work in his entire life. When he was good, he was great, a proper little athletic powerhouse but when he was having a meltdown I genuinely feared for my life and those around us so I really didn't enjoy him but loved him dearly and was insanely protective of him so rightly or wrongly never felt i could pass him on.

So OP no solutions for you but lots of empathy with the frustration you feel.

 

[EllenJay]

With a Welshie, the most important thing is to establish boundaries. You have to decide early on what is acceptable and what isn't. This is true of most horses, but even more so with a Welshie. They are the cleverest of ponies and if you don't truly get them on your side you will be forever on a back foot.

With my old boy, I could lead him on a loose lead rope, through the lushest grass and most succulent cow parsley and he would just walk by myside without even looking at the tasty morsels - anyone else, 'cos he knew he could, he would set his neck and drag them all over the place. Now and again he would test me, but one quick repremand, normally verbally, he just went OK.

You need to do ground work, ground work, ground work. Once he respects you, don't let standards drop, constantly reinforced the boundary, and eventually he will follow you anywhere - including up a ramp into a lorry or trailer.

Welshies are the most challenging of natives - but also the most rewarding - but if you don't spend the time initially they will make up their own rules.

Since he has been retired, he has gone feral very, very quickly. The lessons learned over 20 years faded very quickly, which just goes to show the amount of consistency needed.

Love a good Welshie, but not sure if I would have one again