Feeling like I'm on a capitalist treadmill

[Quigleyandme]

My husband died during my pregnancy. I handed the keys to my dream house to the bank because I couldn’t afford the mortgage on my own. I was working full-time on Friday and had Dan on Monday. I was made redundant the day I returned from maternity leave. I rebuilt my life from the bottom up and I’ve done OK. Not stellar but OK. No regrets whatsoever. Dan is my crowning achievement and greatest source of pride. He shares my love of horses, dogs, antiques and early 20th century social history and fashion. The baby and toddler years were tiring and limiting but they were soon over. He achieved an almost 100% bursary to an excellent boarding school at eleven and we travelled, had adventures, visited museums and exhibitions, went to the theatre and shows and did all sorts in the holidays. We just had loads of fun and he was my best pal until he grew up and got a life of his own and a wife! I wouldn‘t have missed it for all the financial security or possessions in the world.

 

[FlyingCircus]

I do at the minute as my work is very demanding and includes international travel every month or so, plus late nights at the pub would just be too much for me, and also actually be able to ride and spend quality time with OH.

Industry doesn’t pay too well but I’ve studied and worked so hard to be where I am and I really enjoy what I do, so I would hate for my time to be wasted. I’m going to level up my skills this year and ask for a raise next year, then if I can’t just find another job around the 35k mark, it’s definitely manageable, just have to find the right company.

I promise you I’m not being difficult, just very stuck in my ways trying to navigate through this without too much having to change. So pleased I posted as it’s put so much into perspective!

See, I can respect your position too. I went for the "what degree and career will get me the most money" approach. So I hate my job, but atleast have funds behind me...when I have time to spend it ?

 

[MissMay]

I was absolutely blessed to take a year of when my baby was born. And tbh the first 18 months would have been fine to have a horse.

But once I went back to full time I genuinely wouldn't have had the time to fit in a horse and actively enjoy it,, that was absolute key for me I didn't want to resent riding or have it become a thing I have to do but don't enjoy.

Full time work, running a house, a young family and a partner who also works full time IMHO it just doesn't go to add a horse in the mix. And we have both our full families including siblings no more than 12 mind from the house.
By the time I get home play with toddler get his supper and bedtime done, walk dogs, do our dinner and get ready for the next day. Weekends he has an activity class on Saturday morning and we like to do family days. My partner is so supportive buuuut I don't want to force that by having to go to the yard 7 days a week which means he can't go out during the evening.

Iv finally found peace that I won't be owning my own horse until youngest is in school and I can afford to cut my hours down.

Kids are a whole new life and perspective. You just don't want to be gone all the time you don't want to be rushing you absolutely 100% change totally as a person as every priority has shifted. I have had horses since I was 4 and could never imagine doing without, now I make do by getting too ride for others 2/3 days a week ( this is a good week, then 2 weeks could pass before I get out again depending on family life)

 

[Winters100]

I just didn't want to read this and run (so to speak) - was it really "arrogance" though? Or was it at least partly due to the enormous and difficult combination of social and economic pressures that cause so many women to wait to have babies? It may have turned out to be a decision that didn't give you the desired outcome, but as someone who doesn't (yet) have children it sounds like you're being very hard on yourself and I'm not sure that's entirely fair. None of us make our decisions in a vacuum.

You are very kind, but if I am honest it really was a kind of arrogance, not in the normal way, but it was more a situation that I knew that there could be problems, but I just believed that I would solve them. I was healthy, did not feel old, and knew that I could fund medical intervention, so not being able to have a child seemed like something that would happen to someone else, not me. A horrible attitude, but that was how I saw it. Of course reading about celebrities and other women having babies in their late 40s made me over confident too, and I justified it to myself by thinking that when we did finally have a child we would be able to give them a fantastic life. Looking at that now I see it is nonsense. Of course some level of financial security is helpful, but it is not 'things' that make children happy, they need your time and your love, not the latest phone or toy.

I was very lucky that by chance my life worked out. My husband left me, he went on to have children with a much younger woman, and I thought I would be alone with my dog forever. I moved away to try to build some sort of life, and found myself living next door to a single father with 3 children. I can't say if it is the same as having your own children, and probably it is not, because I never felt that instant love that a parent feels upon seeing their child for the first time, but I can say that today I could not love them more, and the fact that I did not give birth to them makes no difference. Of course it took a long time to go from being Mrs W, to Auntie, and finally to Mum, and I am also painfully aware that this was simply a chance - at the time I bought the house because another purchase had fallen through. Had I got the first house my life would probably be very different, and possibly very lonely.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that our lives are made up of so many chance encounters that are outside of our control, but if you can increase your chances of success in any area then it is worth doing.

 

[Nasicus]

Have you ever tried ignoring the fact you are hungry???? How long did you keep that up? It seriously is worse than being hungry when your hormones take hold — its not really a choice anymore so I hope, if you are that set against kids you never get the urge .

If I don't eat, I die. If I don't procreate I... don't die?
You make it sound like women have absolutely no choice or agency in the matter, like they're incapable of rational thought they get hit by the hormone stick, driven by their base urges, and all I can say to that is yikes.

 

[scats]

I genuinely don’t know how people fit horses and babies in. We don’t have any opportunity for services on our yard, so it would be a real struggle.
Saying that, I must have been off the day they were giving hormones out as I have no desire to have a baby. I actually really like babies (yet I can’t stand small children), I find them fascinating. I don’t want one though. The only time I think it would be fun to have a baby is when I see all the nice clothes you can buy for them… but I have an orangutan who can fill that gap if need be

 

[Peglo]

I genuinely don’t know how people fit horses and babies in. We don’t have any opportunity for services on our yard, so it would be a real struggle.
Saying that, I must have been off the day they were giving hormones out as I have no desire to have a baby. I actually really like babies (yet I can’t stand small children), I find them fascinating. I don’t want one though. The only time I think it would be fun to have a baby is when I see all the nice clothes you can buy for them… but I have an orangutan who can fill that gap if need be

I think I must’ve been off that day too. I find babies and children very annoying and have zero interest in anything to do with being a parent, especially giving up my freedom. I’ve been waiting for that urge to happen but I’m 30 now and still really don’t want a child.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

If I don't eat, I die. If I don't procreate I... don't die?
You make it sound like women have absolutely no choice or agency in the matter, like they're incapable of rational thought they get hit by the hormone stick, driven by their base urges, and all I can say to that is yikes.

Yeahhh, I've been hit quite hard by the hormone stick but I think we've realized it's not realistic for us. Just not enough hours in the day to be the parents we want to be (there at all). We'd be stretched extremely thin. We also don't have the resources many have re mat leave, family (I have nearly none and they're far, far, away. His too), normal (40 hrs or less) working hours, and I am already almost 33 and don't want to have a kid after 35 (OH is older, which doesn't matter so much, but he'd be an old new parent) for a variety of reasons (I know people do, but...). It makes me feel really down sometimes. Really down. But ultimately my more rational and realistic mindset prevails and I don't become a zombie slave to my hormones

I would have to give up the horse stuff too for atleast a few years. I've had other forced breaks in my riding, and could possibly do it again, but I fear of this horse ending up in the wrong hands. A share could work but could drive me completely mad. It's a toss up ?

I also think it's important to consider if this is a hormonal urge and if it's actually realistic/what you'd want. My hormones try to cloud my judgment, yes, but I am still capable of thinking for myself.

 

[palo1]

My husband died during my pregnancy. I handed the keys to my dream house to the bank because I couldn’t afford the mortgage on my own. I was working full-time on Friday and had Dan on Monday. I was made redundant the day I returned from maternity leave. I rebuilt my life from the bottom up and I’ve done OK. Not stellar but OK. No regrets whatsoever. Dan is my crowning achievement and greatest source of pride. He shares my love of horses, dogs, antiques and early 20th century social history and fashion. The baby and toddler years were tiring and limiting but they were soon over. He achieved an almost 100% bursary to an excellent boarding school at eleven and we travelled, had adventures, visited museums and exhibitions, went to the theatre and shows and did all sorts in the holidays. We just had loads of fun and he was my best pal until he grew up and got a life of his own and a wife! I wouldn‘t have missed it for all the financial security or possessions in the world.

Wow! I have so much respect for this journey. I think a great many people would have sunk under such adversity but it is wonderful that you didn't. I cannot imagine how difficult things must have been for you. Thank you for sharing this.

 

[palo1]

I think there are ways off the capitalist treadmill but you have to 'un-want' many things and accept more risk, harder work and possibly much greater freedom. If you really want the things you think you do/that are considered 'normal', then yes you are on a treadmill!!

Some people make very different life choices to be able to have what they prioritise, whether that be children or hobbies or something else and once you decide on what you 'really' want that might be easier. We are accustomed to being told we can have it all but you can't, even with all the money in the world. It is also increasingly truly unsustainable for individuals, society and the planet.

One way to 'have it all' for example would be to relocate to another country where the cost of living, childcare and land would be much less but you would have to take other risks and compromise on cultural familiarity, distance from family, more uncertain work opportunities etc. But it's possible!

You can decide to live without stuff too, in order to have more time or more money for other things. Hormones are hard to negotiate with but increasingly it probably is important for people to make cognitive rather than hormonal decisions about family planning, especially in a highly developed and expensive country such as the UK.

 

[chaps89]

OP there is a thread in the club house - HHO human foals 2021 (or something to that affect) Quite a few of the posters on there give very honest Frank accounts of pregnancy/the early days, might be worth a read of how it’s really been for some people with horses.
(I didn’t want them anyway, followed the thread with morbid curiosity and can safely say I definitley don’t want them!)

 

[I'm Dun]

I genuinely don’t know how people fit horses and babies in. We don’t have any opportunity for services on our yard, so it would be a real struggle.
Saying that, I must have been off the day they were giving hormones out as I have no desire to have a baby. I actually really like babies (yet I can’t stand small children), I find them fascinating. I don’t want one though. The only time I think it would be fun to have a baby is when I see all the nice clothes you can buy for them… but I have an orangutan who can fill that gap if need be

Me either, never once wanted my own. But I'm the other way, actively dislike babies but adore kids. I spend a lot of time with kids. Parents are always happy to palm off their kids with a responsible adult, so I get to enjoy the good bits and then hand them back!

 

[blitznbobs]

If I don't eat, I die. If I don't procreate I... don't die?
You make it sound like women have absolutely no choice or agency in the matter, like they're incapable of rational thought they get hit by the hormone stick, driven by their base urges, and all I can say to that is yikes.

They have rational thought and agency in some ways but people spend thousands of pounds on ivf etc because of a biological drive to have children — i have absolutely no problem with people choosing not to have children but to negate that drive when it hits as a simple choice is to belittle the struggle that many women go through to have children . I am an educated woman who has agency and am happy to make decisions about my life but when that urge hit it wasn’t exactly easy to ignore… if you never get that urge and dont want kids thats fine but the drivers of evolution and therefor life are to survive and to procreate so to compare that urge to hunger is very appropriate

 

[cobgoblin]

I genuinely don’t know how people fit horses and babies in. We don’t have any opportunity for services on our yard, so it would be a real struggle.
Saying that, I must have been off the day they were giving hormones out as I have no desire to have a baby. I actually really like babies (yet I can’t stand small children), I find them fascinating. I don’t want one though. The only time I think it would be fun to have a baby is when I see all the nice clothes you can buy for them… but I have an orangutan who can fill that gap if need be

I think I was at the back of the queue too. Never had the slightest inkling of broodiness. Watching friends and family have children put me off even further if that was even possible.
Unfortunately, children have always made a beeline for me! Which ,for some reason, convinced my family that I would have several...just shows how wrong one can be.

 

[Nasicus]

They have rational thought and agency in some ways but people spend thousands of pounds on ivf etc because of a biological drive to have children — i have absolutely no problem with people choosing not to have children but to negate that drive when it hits as a simple choice is to belittle the struggle that many women go through to have children . I am an educated woman who has agency and am happy to make decisions about my life but when that urge hit it wasn’t exactly easy to ignore… if you never get that urge and dont want kids thats fine but the drivers of evolution and therefor life are to survive and to procreate so to compare that urge to hunger is very appropriate

You're reading far too much into my words, and I get the feeling there's a degree of projection going on here.

I never said women shouldn't want to have children, and how they choose to have said child does not matter (as long as it's legal!). I merely said that sudden broodiness is often a result of hormones. That OP should take the time to think things through thoroughly and logically beyond what their hormones are telling them to do, and figure out if that is what they really want. Because it's a massive thing to bring another child into this world, one you can't easily remedy if you find the hormones have faded and you're left holding a baby you didn't in your heart of hearts truly want nor were ready for. And I fail to see how encouraging people not to take the decision to try for/have a child lightly is 'belittling the struggle'.

 

[AntiPuck]

I think a large amount of this is social, not only biological. There is immense pro-natalist pressure and messaging in society to push people, both blatantly and subtly, to have children. Even from the administration of society, like governments (always want more tax payers), religions (would die out without more adherents - which is why the Pope got involved the other day telling people to stop choosing pets over kids!), etc. The point of child tax credits and benefits, for example, are to incentivise it, and many countries go much further than the UK on that, with priority housing access for those with X amount of children. Young girls are often given baby dolls to play with, asked what they will name their kids when they grow up, etc. These are all very powerful normative social forces.

To be clear, I'm not saying I don't think hormones play a role (honestly!), but I think it's easy to underestimate how much social pressure there is on this topic, and how influential that is. People have very strong desires to fit in and not miss out, nor stand out.

I'm someone who really, really doesn't want kids (I even posted a topic about this in the Club House a few months ago, which generated really interesting discussion), but even I was getting wobbly knees under the pressure for a time.

 

[cobgoblin]

Dolls..bleugh!

 

[Miss_Millie]

I think a large amount of this is social, not only biological. There is immense pro-natalist pressure and messaging in society to push people, both blatantly and subtly, to have children. Even from the administration of society, like governments (always want more tax payers), religions (would die out without more adherents - which is why the Pope got involved the other day telling people to stop choosing pets over kids!), etc. The point of child tax credits and benefits, for example, are to incentivise it, and many countries go much further than the UK on that, with priority housing access for those with X amount of children. Young girls are often given baby dolls to play with, asked what they will name their kids when they grow up, etc. These are all very powerful normative social forces.

To be clear, I'm not saying I don't think hormones play a role (honestly!), but I think it's easy to underestimate how much social pressure there is on this topic, and how influential that is. People have very strong desires to fit in and not miss out, nor stand out.

I'm someone who really, really doesn't want kids (I even posted a topic about this in the Club House a few months ago, which generated really interesting discussion), but even I was getting wobbly knees under the pressure for a time.

I 100% agree. I don't have a maternal bone in my body and it has taken a long time for my family to accept that I will never have children. Not all females are broody and wanting to reproduce, and that is 100% okay. Society tells us otherwise for the many reasons you have mentioned above.

 

[blitznbobs]

You're reading far too much into my words, and I get the feeling there's a degree of projection going on here.

I never said women shouldn't want to have children, and how they choose to have said child does not matter (as long as it's legal!). I merely said that sudden broodiness is often a result of hormones. That OP should take the time to think things through thoroughly and logically beyond what their hormones are telling them to do, and figure out if that is what they really want. Because it's a massive thing to bring another child into this world, one you can't easily remedy if you find the hormones have faded and you're left holding a baby you didn't in your heart of hearts truly want nor were ready for. And I fail to see how encouraging people not to take the decision to try for/have a child lightly is 'belittling the struggle'.

My point is , i suppose, if you look at it logically no one would have children… they are incredibly expensive, a monumental tie, hugely boring a lot of the time and create a huge amount of boring housework too, they often kill your career (especially if you are female) and they rob you of hours and hours of sleep- on all logical measures before you have them they make your life immeasurably harder and yet , year on year people are so desperate to have these little parasites that they will literally make them selves ill over it… if thats not a hormonal drive i dont know what is. Accepting that humans are indeed animals and have not evolved that far that we can completely override that is not ignoring anyones agency nor is it incorrect… after all if we were all so good at just ignoring hormones and biological drives, no one would get an std or unwanted pregnancy and no one would be fat … but a quick look at society shows that is not true

 

[scats]

Me either, never once wanted my own. But I'm the other way, actively dislike babies but adore kids. I spend a lot of time with kids. Parents are always happy to palm off their kids with a responsible adult, so I get to enjoy the good bits and then hand them back!

I find small children too silly. They do stupid movements and get excited too easily and screech just because they want to make noise. Yuk.
But babies just sort of ‘be’ and simply react to their surroundings.
Im another that children flock too. I think it must be like that thing with cats going to people who hate them.

 

[Deltofe2493]

Children definitely do not flock to me. My oh has a nephew who randomly gave me a hug and when he was in my arms I didn’t really know what to do once he was there loool ?? my oh & his dad looked at each other as if to say wtf this is random! ?

Its definitely hormones and not my natural personality. And also living within an old school family unit where they’re all supportive mumsy mum who cooks & cleans and dadsy dad who builds and gardens.

My mum wasn’t overly mumsy she cares very much and I know she loves me and sis but she is more of bestie and we weren’t close growing up. So I would say I inherit my independent personality from her but transitioning into this support network has been super strange for me which I think is also influencing my desire for children.

@blitznbobs miss trunchbull is that you? ? (I mean, you’re not wrong)

ETA it does make me confused that kids are such a universal thing and so acceptable but animals are a ‘luxury’ but they’re actually cheaper??

this is why I like my horse because I can leave her at the yard in her field or stable once we’re done knowing she’s a happy girl ? no crying or whinging!

 

[Gloi]

The good thing about having horses rather than children is you can sell them if you don't get on with them

 

[LadyGascoyne]

It sounds like you’re very committed to your job, and that is admirable, but it also sounds like you feel money is driving you at the moment - hence the treadmill.

I think you need to be honest with yourself about how important working in this field is to you, and consider getting a better paid job.

I have previously worked in roles which were significantly underpaid against the market (NHS) because it mattered to me ethically. I didn’t feel limited for one second because I had consciously chosen to take a lower paid job for personal reasons.

If your chosen career isn’t delivering on meaning, and you’re frustrated by the treadmill even in a career you thought you’d love, then I’d seriously think about taking a better paid job to allow you to enjoy your hobbies more.

 

[Red-1]

Me & OH are living with parents and saving for a property and we are on track due to have a deposit together by end of the year.

I have found my self super broody recently. Once we have the home then I am thinking we can think about starting a family of our own.

Why do I always feel like I am on a hamster wheel working for the next stage? Just under a year ago I was aiming to be on the salary I am now, and now I am looking for ways to achieve my next pay grade. I've bought a horse last year which is something I've dreamed of since I was 12, but now I am looking into pregnancy and next stages of life. Is this normal??? Why can I not just chill out for a few months at least?? I'm the same with the horse, once I've done one comp I'm always like ok when's the next what else can we do etc I stress myself out.

Anyway, my questions are how have others in this situation:

a) manage their time with a newborn.

b) manage finances. My livery is £600 per month, then intermittent maintenance costs i.e. full set of shoes, dentist, back etc

c) dealt with not riding/gentle riding for 9 months?

d) thoughts on sharers.. so hard to trust they will take the correct care, and also find someone who will be long term

My annual salary is 32k per year and he on 35, but statutory maternity pay works out around £600 per month which just about covers livery costs! Me & OH both work in pub / bar at weekends but I would not get SMP from this pub job. He takes in an additional £1200 per month. I would need to ask HR dept. for their mat leave policy but I think it is 6 weeks full pay then the rest on stat.

I would feel terrible for OH to fund my oversized dog for 6 months whilst on mat. leave, on top of that he would have to cover the mortgage, bills etc and I know this is something he and I would have to sit down and properly discuss when we are truly ready, but has anyone else's OH been kind enough to cover for them? Or do you save a bit knowing you will be off for a few months? Looking at options I'd be tempted to go back to my full time job asap just to earn the money.

People are saying if you wait to afford children you will never have them, and you make it work... thoughts and advice please!

I never wanted kids, but understand that some people do. I don't understand this thing about capitalist treadmill though. You have a job, make money and then have choice as to how to spend/spread that money/time.

I do understand that I have a better (for me) life as I haven't had to fork out the £300K, or whatever they say it is to raise a kid, so I can have a selection of horses, a lorry, lessons etc, and the time to do it all.

Some people do choose to step off the treadmill. Live in a camper. Blog and travel. We do have choices. Harder to do if you have kids though. But that is a choice, in the vast majority of cases.

You are going to be able to afford a home and then horses. If you chose kids, then choices need changing. I don't see that as being a capitalist treadmill. If it was all available to everyone, then we would run out of space. There will always be finite resources, so choices need making. Not sure if this is capitalist, I see it as pure practicality, but then I am no political student.

I do think you are in a very fortunate position. I think, if we were in a pure socialist environment, you wouldn't have the choices you do have. Your life would be less rich; you would not be as fortunate.

As I said I am no political expert and am preparing to be shot down in flames LOL.

 

[Gloi]

I do think you are in a very fortunate position. I think, if we were in a pure socialist environment, you wouldn't have the choices you do have. Your life would be less rich; you would not be as fortunate.

As I said I am no political expert and am preparing to be shot down in flames LOL.

Compare then to the far more socialist Scandinavian model.
https://www.expat.com/en/guide/europe/sweden/19295-childcare-in-sweden.html

 

[Miss_Millie]

I get the sense that OP is referring to the pressures that internalised capitalism puts on us as humans - the idea that our self worth is directly linked to our productivity or success. OP is struggling to enjoy the now because she is always feeling that she needs to take the 'next step' - in this case, having children.

I will echo what someone else said upthread, which is that the planet is going to be a very different place to live on within the next decade, and not for the better. Depressing I know, but worth reading up on before choosing to have children I think.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

The good thing about having horses rather than children is you can sell them if you don't get on with them

I mean you can sell children but it turns out selling children and/or eating your young is frowned upon in society. Who woulda thought.



My sense of humour is terrible.

 

[ycbm]

Compare then to the far more socialist Scandinavian model.
https://www.expat.com/en/guide/europe/sweden/19295-childcare-in-sweden.html

That's fine for everyone who wants kids but everyone who doesn't is paying a huge amount of tax so other people can. That doesn't seem very fair to me.

The last time I saw a figure it was that 25%of people are now child free by choice, this isn't a small minority.

ETA yes I know our crazy state pension system collapses unless we bring in or give birth to new workers!
.

 

[I'm Dun]

Some people do choose to step off the treadmill. Live in a camper. Blog and travel. We do have choices. Harder to do if you have kids though. But that is a choice, in the vast majority of cases.

Thats me. Well its a boat not a camper van. I say that I've gotten off the hamster wheel a lot. It was a conscious decision but one I wont ever regret.

 

[AntiPuck]

I work for a Swedish company, which offers very generous paternity/maternity packages, extra annual parental leave, as well as a 30k+ each annual allowance for "family-forming" expenses e.g. fertility treatment, or adoption or surrogacy costs.

I asked if the allowance could be used for sterilisation, on the grounds that my family won't be formed of any children - the answer was a resounding no. The message is very clear!