Field agression

[Supere]

Hi all, I have a horse that can be temperamental in the field. He has notably acted this way on and off for the last 10 years, possibly even before this.
I’ve know him a good few years, and owned him a year and a half.
When being caught, sometimes he will charge at you with ears pinned back and spin, and go back to eating. He does this when he does not want to be caught, and gets worse in the spring time when grass coming through. He will not allow you to chase him away, he will come at you again, or kick out.
I have known him also to protect his grazing partners from being caught aswell.
He was quite an agressive horse on the ground when i met him, especially being tacked up, and would not let you groom him. He would not let you near his legs either.
Over the last few years he’s come on leaps and bounds, and will stand all day to be groomed and even pricks his ears up when he sees his tack out.
However the problem with the grass agression is just not stopping.
He currently lives in a large herd, around 20 horses, that get brought in (not being led, herded) from one field to the next. They are then caught from the other field, as it is behind the yard, and brought in - this field is where the trouble usually starts.
I’m thinking of moving him to a yard with small herd turnout, but I am so afraid of it going badly, his agression becoming worse, or him not allowing other liveries to catch their horses, but i’m thinking he doesn’t seem to be happy where he is, wondering if anyone could offer advice

 

[Supere]

Hi all, I have a horse that can be temperamental in the field. He has notably acted this way on and off for the last 10 years, possibly even before this.
I’ve know him a good few years, and owned him a year and a half.
When being caught, sometimes he will charge at you with ears pinned back and spin, and go back to eating. He does this when he does not want to be caught, and gets worse in the spring time when grass coming through. He will not allow you to chase him away, he will come at you again, or kick out.
I have known him also to protect his grazing partners from being caught aswell.
He was quite an agressive horse on the ground when i met him, especially being tacked up, and would not let you groom him. He would not let you near his legs either.
Over the last few years he’s come on leaps and bounds, and will stand all day to be groomed and even pricks his ears up when he sees his tack out.
However the problem with the grass agression is just not stopping.
He currently lives in a large herd, around 20 horses, that get brought in (not being led, herded) from one field to the next. They are then caught from the other field, as it is behind the yard, and brought in - this field is where the trouble usually starts.
I’m thinking of moving him to a yard with small herd turnout, but I am so afraid of it going badly, his agression becoming worse, or him not allowing other liveries to catch their horses, but i’m thinking he doesn’t seem to be happy where he is, wondering if anyone could offer advice

I should add, most days he is fine, comes in on his own bat, and was fine all winter no agression at all, but it started again this spring

 

[Traks]

Has he got enough to eat? I’ve seen behaviour change a lot depending on how much grass/hay horses have…it may not be the case but something to consider. Hunger can make them do odd things! Particularly after we’ve had such a dry summer with little grass growth.

 

[Supere]

Has he got enough to eat? I’ve seen behaviour change a lot depending on how much grass/hay horses have…it may not be the case but something to consider. Hunger can make them do odd things! Particularly after we’ve had such a dry summer with little grass growth.

Yes he definitely does, the field he is turnout out in has continued having plenty of grass due to size, although the field they come through to does have more grass.
I definitely don’t think he is hungry, he comes in and picks at hay but doesn’t eat much through the day before he goes back out

 

[Lois Lame]

It sounds to me that your horse does not want to be caught and doesn't hesitate to tell you. It doesn't sound like hunger at all to me, just a dominant horse who ... is very dominant.

I wouldn't know what to do with a horse like this and will be interested to read replies from those who have some good ideas.

Before you owned him, what were his living arrangements? How did he behave with those (different?) arrangements? He sounds like a very strong personality.

 

[rextherobber]

No advice, but I'm glad I'm not sharing a field with him! I think you need to ask the YO if you can fence a bit of the field off so he has individual turnout but can still see the others. I'd worry where I'd stand insurance wise ( let alone morally) if he injured another person.

 

[smolmaus]

The person to ask advice from is a qualified behaviorist. This could be separation anxiety, or resource guarding grass or a companion, just generalized anxiety or something else. Personally I would like to know what he's attempting to communicate before I moved him, you could end up making it worse if the issue is that he is insecure.

The kicking out is what would make me particularly advise a genuine professional. For some horses just an experienced trainer might be enough but if he's running at people you don't want to risk him hurting someone.

 

[Exasperated]

No advice, but I'm glad I'm not sharing a field with him! I think you need to ask the YO if you can fence a bit of the field off so he has individual turnout but can still see the others. I'd worry where I'd stand insurance wise ( let alone morally) if he injured another person.

If this is a possibility, I think you’d be sensible to pursue it, see what effect that has and confer with your behaviourist if you like; but at least you would be eliminating what sounds like a well-known and definite risk to other liveries and their horses, meanwhile.

 

[Supere]

It sounds to me that your horse does not want to be caught and doesn't hesitate to tell you. It doesn't sound like hunger at all to me, just a dominant horse who ... is very dominant.

I wouldn't know what to do with a horse like this and will be interested to read replies from those who have some good ideas.

Before you owned him, what were his living arrangements? How did he behave with those (different?) arrangements? He sounds like a very strong personality.

He has lived on the same yard i brought him from since i’ve owned him and has lived there about 10 years.
He is out overnight and in for about 6-8 hours of the day. I cannot change this as there is no other option than this really, they aren’t out during the day.
They live in a large herd and come in together and go out together.
I do believe it’s resource guarding, but this has established well before i even met him. I also think it’s learned behaviour to an extent as it’s not always myself to bring him in, and they’re herded through fields not led, and some people are (rightly enough) nervous around him. He always comes in eventually, but it can take a while when he’s having a worse day.
It seems to be the more you make a fuss about it the more angry he gets.
Once he’s caught he changes completely, he can be a grump and pull faces but he is extremely good to lead, groom, ride etc.

 

[PurBee]

From a food perspective I can see him being reluctant to come in once he gets into the yard back field with lots more grass than the main grazing field.
Grass is king to many horses, and they prefer eating that than anything else, so it’s like ‘prime’ food choice, and he knows that field is just a holding field to be caught and lead through, so he’s really just got a few moments to gobble good grass, and that’s likely annoying, perhaps causing the behaviour issues.
He also knows what’s coming next, a stable and dry hay. Not a preference compared to good quality grass.

One thing I happenstance discovered brought my horses in easily from the fields loose along the farm track, in fact they often trot to the yard for it! Is to give what they consider ‘high value’ food. For mine that would be the haylage I give. It’s a really nice mix well made haylage. Sometimes they get just a tiny bit if the grazing is good, or more during winter when grazing is thinning, but they come in no matter the amount given. They can’t find that out in the fields, and from their perspective it’s tasty. But it’s always there, and they know it, so there’s no hassles bringing in. It’s food bribery, and works in my field/track/gates set-up and also means anyone can bring them in safely.
I happily use food bribery with grouped animals to instill certain behaviours/day routine dynamics, as a general habit, and find that works fast and effectively. The food aspect/amount/type of food can then change if needed, once habits are set.
(They don’t get treats for everything good they do behaviourally as I don’t want to encourage nippy/expectant/impatient for treat behaviour. I’m quite stingy with general treats, so when I do give them they are surprised rather than expectant! Groundwork is done without food, and nice forage given afterwards.)

For your guy, who has nice grass, and lots of it - you’d probably have to step up the food stakes to a tasty bowl feed. It really doesn’t have to be much volume of feed, just type of feed tastier than grazing, from his perspective.
If he is on a powdered or pelleted balancer, add some lo-calorie chaff to it, with a couple of carrots, and it’s something tasty that can’t ever be found out there grazing, so he will see it as a prime food.
If he knows that’s waiting for him, he’ll likely be eager to come in. The bowl feed contents can change after establishing willingness/eagerness, but seriously good grass is 10 on the food scale for most horses, and even good fresh lovely hay would be 6 in comparison, average hay likely 4. Terrible dusty hay would be 1-2, and they’d rather be turned out eating anything but that!

Even if you eventually change the type of feed he gets when he comes in, using this method helps break the cycle of experience for both him and the humans having to bring him in.
Currently everyone is projecting at him he’s difficult to bring in, they likely are (understandably) also anguished doing it, and the horse will pick this up. They pick up our anxieties very easily.
As you say he’s absolutely find once headcollared and leading, suggests the human anguish of the situation could likely be compounding the situation. Once headcollared the humans are relieved and so he behaves being lead in.
With a bowl feed approach, the handlers will then stop the projections and anguish.

It’s like the issues we see on YouTube where someone gets a trainer in, and the trainer who doesn’t daily handle the horse, goes out, catches the horse and brings them in without hassle. Everyone is amazed and thinks the person is a ‘whisperer’ whereas the trainer is simply not projecting anything at that horse, there’s no emotional angst, they just have in their mind a task to achieve. They remain neutral and calm, the horse responds.
Its so hard for us owners to find ‘neutral’ after repeated behaviour issues.
Sometimes in videos the owners and even friends are there with the trainer and the horse misbehaves due to the usual people around the horse still projecting their bad behaviour expectations onto the horse. That many eyes focused onto the horse in a confined space causes pressure for the horse. His behaviour is the only way to relieve the pressure of the whole scenario of people staring at him projecting with mixed signals.
Trainers really help change the mind of the owners, training the owners rather than the horse in many cases.

I had an issue with my gelding that I went full circle with, and I eventually found calm neutral, to cut the repeated loop and start afresh. I basically lobotomised myself of all previous memories of bad behaviour and assumed I had a horse who was willing to do everything as asked! I did this to stop unconsciously projecting expectations of bad behaviour.
I also engaged in personal meditation sessions to learn to control my emotional state better, and find true centred calm, which I practiced alone and while with the horses, doing no training, just being around them. Breathing exercises too. Reading the study that they can hear our hearbeat made me realise that there’s no faking calm composure while our heart races anxiously! They pick up the mixed signals. I had to find true calm. If it was a bad day for me to do that, I didn't do the training.

Not all horses are so reflective of us, my mare is quite happy to ignore me whatever state I’m in! Whereas my gelding is far more reflective of mirroring people.

Food can often times be used for short term quick fixes, to help break behaviour cycles, while training and self-awareness practice is the long term goal for both horse and owner.

 

[kerrieberry2]

screaming ulcers to me! my horse can be quite aggressive when his gut isn't right, and hes had ulcers twices. I also find he's very sensitive to grass; fresh grass or wet grass. I have to keep him on restricted grass and adlib hay for him to be comfortable! but even this week were we've had a bit of rain, the short bits of grass are clearly coming through and he's been grouchy again! so i've upped his gut balancer

 

[Supere]

screaming ulcers to me! my horse can be quite aggressive when his gut isn't right, and hes had ulcers twices. I also find he's very sensitive to grass; fresh grass or wet grass. I have to keep him on restricted grass and adlib hay for him to be comfortable! but even this week were we've had a bit of rain, the short bits of grass are clearly coming through and he's been grouchy again! so i've upped his gut balancer

He is on gut balancer already following colic episode last year, I have considered ulcers, but when i’ve looked into it he doesn’t seem to have any other indication of ulcers, is this alone enough to indicate he could have them ?

 

[Supere]

From a food perspective I can see him being reluctant to come in once he gets into the yard back field with lots more grass than the main grazing field.
Grass is king to many horses, and they prefer eating that than anything else, so it’s like ‘prime’ food choice, and he knows that field is just a holding field to be caught and lead through, so he’s really just got a few moments to gobble good grass, and that’s likely annoying, perhaps causing the behaviour issues.
He also knows what’s coming next, a stable and dry hay. Not a preference compared to good quality grass.

One thing I happenstance discovered brought my horses in easily from the fields loose along the farm track, in fact they often trot to the yard for it! Is to give what they consider ‘high value’ food. For mine that would be the haylage I give. It’s a really nice mix well made haylage. Sometimes they get just a tiny bit if the grazing is good, or more during winter when grazing is thinning, but they come in no matter the amount given. They can’t find that out in the fields, and from their perspective it’s tasty. But it’s always there, and they know it, so there’s no hassles bringing in. It’s food bribery, and works in my field/track/gates set-up and also means anyone can bring them in safely.
I happily use food bribery with grouped animals to instill certain behaviours/day routine dynamics, as a general habit, and find that works fast and effectively. The food aspect/amount/type of food can then change if needed, once habits are set.
(They don’t get treats for everything good they do behaviourally as I don’t want to encourage nippy/expectant/impatient for treat behaviour. I’m quite stingy with general treats, so when I do give them they are surprised rather than expectant! Groundwork is done without food, and nice forage given afterwards.)

For your guy, who has nice grass, and lots of it - you’d probably have to step up the food stakes to a tasty bowl feed. It really doesn’t have to be much volume of feed, just type of feed tastier than grazing, from his perspective.
If he is on a powdered or pelleted balancer, add some lo-calorie chaff to it, with a couple of carrots, and it’s something tasty that can’t ever be found out there grazing, so he will see it as a prime food.
If he knows that’s waiting for him, he’ll likely be eager to come in. The bowl feed contents can change after establishing willingness/eagerness, but seriously good grass is 10 on the food scale for most horses, and even good fresh lovely hay would be 6 in comparison, average hay likely 4. Terrible dusty hay would be 1-2, and they’d rather be turned out eating anything but that!

Even if you eventually change the type of feed he gets when he comes in, using this method helps break the cycle of experience for both him and the humans having to bring him in.
Currently everyone is projecting at him he’s difficult to bring in, they likely are (understandably) also anguished doing it, and the horse will pick this up. They pick up our anxieties very easily.
As you say he’s absolutely find once headcollared and leading, suggests the human anguish of the situation could likely be compounding the situation. Once headcollared the humans are relieved and so he behaves being lead in.
With a bowl feed approach, the handlers will then stop the projections and anguish.

It’s like the issues we see on YouTube where someone gets a trainer in, and the trainer who doesn’t daily handle the horse, goes out, catches the horse and brings them in without hassle. Everyone is amazed and thinks the person is a ‘whisperer’ whereas the trainer is simply not projecting anything at that horse, there’s no emotional angst, they just have in their mind a task to achieve. They remain neutral and calm, the horse responds.
Its so hard for us owners to find ‘neutral’ after repeated behaviour issues.
Sometimes in videos the owners and even friends are there with the trainer and the horse misbehaves due to the usual people around the horse still projecting their bad behaviour expectations onto the horse. That many eyes focused onto the horse in a confined space causes pressure for the horse. His behaviour is the only way to relieve the pressure of the whole scenario of people staring at him projecting with mixed signals.
Trainers really help change the mind of the owners, training the owners rather than the horse in many cases.

I had an issue with my gelding that I went full circle with, and I eventually found calm neutral, to cut the repeated loop and start afresh. I basically lobotomised myself of all previous memories of bad behaviour and assumed I had a horse who was willing to do everything as asked! I did this to stop unconsciously projecting expectations of bad behaviour.
I also engaged in personal meditation sessions to learn to control my emotional state better, and find true centred calm, which I practiced alone and while with the horses, doing no training, just being around them. Breathing exercises too. Reading the study that they can hear our hearbeat made me realise that there’s no faking calm composure while our heart races anxiously! They pick up the mixed signals. I had to find true calm. If it was a bad day for me to do that, I didn't do the training.

Not all horses are so reflective of us, my mare is quite happy to ignore me whatever state I’m in! Whereas my gelding is far more reflective of mirroring people.

Food can often times be used for short term quick fixes, to help break behaviour cycles, while training and self-awareness practice is the long term goal for both horse and owner.

Thank you so much for this! This all makes a lot of sense!

I do think a lot of his behaviour comes from people anticipating he’s going to do something and becoming nervous about him (again i can completely understand)
But there is definitely a lot of negativity that follows him around at this yard, quite wrongly now as it’s in every aspect, including the things he is perfectly fine with.
I had someone that clips come to have a look at his legs a while back, and everyone had already anticipated that she wouldn’t be able to get near him/ he’d kick out/ wouldn’t let her touch them and he was golden, didn’t move at all and let her feel all round his legs, but she approached him confidently as she didn’t know him from Adam.

I find it hard myself on the yard we’re on with all the negativity about him, people still view him the same as they did many years ago before all the time and effort, blood sweat and tears i’ve put into him, and also into trying to make him a happier horse.

He is definitely food oriented, it is hard for me to manage him properly on the yard we’re on due to how it works and everything being done at exactly the same time, including feed times and turn outs.

I’ve no doubt moving to somewhere i can manage all of this better and be solely responsible for him would be better, and also a yard where he goes from field led to stable, as he is definitely approachable in the field. When he is out and i go to check on him he’ll always happily come over ears foward say hello, happily graze by me. It just seems to be when coming in, he gets agitated, and i’m not sure if moving would have an impact on this as there’s possibly less for him to get worked up over?

I’m just concerned what he may be like with other horses in the field, if their owners are going to catch them, I’d like to think he would not be a problem but god forbid something happens and he injures someone, or it gets worse as he’s not moved in so long, I’d be a bit lost as to where to move to.

I’d love for him to be able to have group turnout as he gets on so well with other horses, and he has known this most of his life i’m not sure if being isolated in individual turnout would have a negative impact on him, or how he would respond to it, but i’m not so sure he’d be happy.

I’ve got myself really worked up about it all recently as I do feel i need to move from this yard for various reasons, but am not sure what the best situation is going to be :/

 

[kerrieberry2]

He is on gut balancer already following colic episode last year, I have considered ulcers, but when i’ve looked into it he doesn’t seem to have any other indication of ulcers, is this alone enough to indicate he could have them ?

defo enough! the thing you mentioned about not wanting to be groomed is also something I've experienced with my gelding!

my horse wasn't your typical candidate, he lived out 24/7 no stress, just a happy hacker! all he ever did was be a bit of a twit when I tied to put his hoof boots on, and if I hacked alone he would plant and I couldn't get him to move, unless I got off! he would hack fine in company though!

it is not normal for a horse to act so aggressively, and I was told mine had lunged over the fence at someone in Jan. he also started playing up when I put his saddle on! so I treated him with gastrogard for 10 weeks and he went back to his usual sweet self.

i would say, have a chat with the vet, and see what they think, but he sounds like he's screaming that he's in pain!

also you need to remember, ulcers are always secondary to something else, so you need to find out what has caused them in the first place! it could be as simple as his diet, or not liking another horse in his field, or it could be as a result of underlying pain elsewhere!

 

[PurBee]

Thank you so much for this! This all makes a lot of sense!

I do think a lot of his behaviour comes from people anticipating he’s going to do something and becoming nervous about him (again i can completely understand)
But there is definitely a lot of negativity that follows him around at this yard, quite wrongly now as it’s in every aspect, including the things he is perfectly fine with.
I had someone that clips come to have a look at his legs a while back, and everyone had already anticipated that she wouldn’t be able to get near him/ he’d kick out/ wouldn’t let her touch them and he was golden, didn’t move at all and let her feel all round his legs, but she approached him confidently as she didn’t know him from Adam.

I find it hard myself on the yard we’re on with all the negativity about him, people still view him the same as they did many years ago before all the time and effort, blood sweat and tears i’ve put into him, and also into trying to make him a happier horse.

He is definitely food oriented, it is hard for me to manage him properly on the yard we’re on due to how it works and everything being done at exactly the same time, including feed times and turn outs.

I’ve no doubt moving to somewhere i can manage all of this better and be solely responsible for him would be better, and also a yard where he goes from field led to stable, as he is definitely approachable in the field. When he is out and i go to check on him he’ll always happily come over ears foward say hello, happily graze by me. It just seems to be when coming in, he gets agitated, and i’m not sure if moving would have an impact on this as there’s possibly less for him to get worked up over?

I’m just concerned what he may be like with other horses in the field, if their owners are going to catch them, I’d like to think he would not be a problem but god forbid something happens and he injures someone, or it gets worse as he’s not moved in so long, I’d be a bit lost as to where to move to.

I’d love for him to be able to have group turnout as he gets on so well with other horses, and he has known this most of his life i’m not sure if being isolated in individual turnout would have a negative impact on him, or how he would respond to it, but i’m not so sure he’d be happy.

I’ve got myself really worked up about it all recently as I do feel i need to move from this yard for various reasons, but am not sure what the best situation is going to be :/

If you get on well with the YO, and they’re not so negative about your horse as other yard members are, could you have a chat about trialling a move to a smaller herd dynamic at a different yard, with the proviso to return if it doesn’t work?

It’s understandable that you’d feel the pinch of other people’s negative attitude about your horse, but like you said about the leg clipper, he behaved perfectly, so he isn’t the absolute terror they think he is, and hopefully they got to also see and realise that after the leg trimmer visit, so hopefully have updated their concept about your horse.
Ideally we want to be on a supportive yard. Are you able to chat with the yard members who think he’s a terror and ask them to please stop thinking so terribly of him and give you a supportive chance to turn him around? Mention the leg trimmer visit as proof to remind them.
All situations are far easier solved when we have support rather than derision. If you feel confident asking this of them, and help them see their support will help the situation, it’s best for all…especially your horse!

It’s quite a high pressure situation anyway to bring a herd of 20 horses in at the same time, loose, daily. I’m surprised there aren’t more scuffles really, but likely the habit of it is now accepted by the majority. Maybe a different yard dynamic would suit him better. You’d only know by trialling the idea.
Personally if I felt a yard was more against my horse, in a nasty way, ‘god he’s always so awful’ - rather than playful ‘he’s a bit of a bugger sometimes isn’t he?!’ , and it felt too much to get everyone’s support, I’d likely trial a move.

But as mentioned already, explore pain options. If it’s ulcers as mentioned, the herd dynamic stress could cause it or a thousand other issues, so you may well end up moving anyway.

Do you have many nearby other yard options?