'Fighting' the sedative

Nancykitt

Nancykitt

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As some of you will know, we had an 'interesting' time with Ozzy today, particularly with regard to his reaction to the sedative.

My daughter's pony once had to be sedated for clipping. The vet had to give two doses and remarked that the pony was 'fighting' the sedative. However, that particular pony did stand still and allow us to clip him.

Ozzy had three doses in total and was still trying to kick/stamp/snatch his legs even though he was clearly unstable at one point. Obviously the vet was monitoring the situation carefully and was very helpful (in holding his head and covering his eyes) but she said that it was unusual to have one that was quite so reactive. (Snoopy and AJ haven't been sedated very often, but when they have they've been pretty much spaced out and not moving a great deal).

I'm just interested in anyone else's experience with sedatives - particularly with horses that 'fight' the sedative in this way!
 
My boy has had three doses for clipping before. I’ve also had to ring the Vet to come back and give him a top up. He wakes up after about half an hour regardless of how much he has had. Once his feet start coming off the ground I know I am running out of time. It makes clipping stressful - luckily I can get away with just the one clip per year these days as he is 26 now.
 
My pony fights the sedative, given for clipping.
He is only 14hh, but with the vet watching over time, how various oral or intravenous injections worked, our best solution was 1/2 tube of Relaquin, followed 45 mins later by 1/2 tube of Demosedan, and clipping 45 mins after that. Anything else, and he just fought it.
 
Sprout said:
My pony fights the sedative, given for clipping.
He is only 14hh, but with the vet watching over time, how various oral or intravenous injections worked, our best solution was 1/2 tube of Relaquin, followed 45 mins later by 1/2 tube of Demosedan, and clipping 45 mins after that. Anything else, and he just fought it.
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That's really interesting...certainly food for thought to look at oral sedatives too.
The vet said that next time we should try Domesedan before she arrived, just to make it easier to administer the IV sedative. But using two oral sedatives - very interesting!
spotty_pony2 said:
My boy has had three doses for clipping before. I’ve also had to ring the Vet to come back and give him a top up. He wakes up after about half an hour regardless of how much he has had. Once his feet start coming off the ground I know I am running out of time. It makes clipping stressful - luckily I can get away with just the one clip per year these days as he is 26 now.
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Ozzy's feet were never really firmly on the ground. It amazed me that he was physically able to kick at all.
We were worried that he was going to go down completely, which wouldn't have made clipping any easier, especially if he was doing a 'dying fly' (which seemed quite likely!)
 
Going to dive into the science a little here…

Very simply and broadly speaking some horses get “up” too quickly or at the sight of a vet and therefore the receptors the drug (or various effects of it) needs to bind too may already be blocked. That’s why sedation in an already stressed horse can often be unreliable.

Most block an element of their fight or flight system and in some horses they will do anything to keep “fighting” the sedation I.e keep showing their fight or flight response even if most of their receptors are blocked by the drug. Or suddenly have enough flight or fight to respond in an outburst.

If a vet is made aware a horse hasn’t responded well to a particular sedation before then they may be able to suggest a different combination of drugs which could work better or suggest oral sedation given before the horse notices anything is going on, to then be topped up by the vet on their arrival. So just because a horse hasn’t taken to a sedation before I wouldn’t rule out trying again with support of your vet.

Make sure if they are doing something painful that the horse has pain relief with/and sedation. Most vet’s are very good at this now but old fashioned way of thinking was you don’t need to give pain relief until they are awake - to give context, this wasn’t to be cruel but because of the increased risk of pain relief drug side effects alongside sedation or GA side effects aka lowering heart rate. However we now know that just because an animal is sedated and unresponsive to pain to our eyes, does not mean the body is not responding, sending triggers to the pain receptors and making them more sensitive, which means when they become conscious, the pain response is much higher.

Anecdotally however I have too seen them snap out of sedation rather violently and drugged up, uncoordinated, worried, three quarter of a ton animals in a small space aren’t very fun.

Hope that might shed some light on why they react such ways!
 
SOS said:
Hope that might shed some light on why they react such ways!
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Thank you.
It was interesting that he was very compliant for the dental - but the vet thought that he may have been OK to have a dental without a sedative. We haven’t had him long enough to know & don’t know that part of his history.

It could be that his legs were sore, but his reaction is pretty extreme. The vet asked what he was like for the EP as she has recently come across a horse who was sedated for the farrier but nearly caused serious damage through kicking. Ozzy was actually very good for the EP. His reaction to the clippers on the legs is very ‘phobic’ - just a massive NO.

I think I’d try an oral sedative next time just to see how he reacts.
 
Rocky (14.2) has to have IV sedation for the dentist… last time she was here she had to give him such a high dose she put a disclaimer on his notes. I don’t even bother with oral sedative anymore as it just doesn’t work on him!
 
Any animal that is already stressed when sedation is given is usually going to need a greater dose / not be as sedated because their fight / flight response is already triggered.

If he’s phobic of needles & vets that’s probably meaning you’re already not starting from a great place.

Dormosedan to stop him from getting that worried in the first place could be a good shout if it works for him. I found with my needle phobic one that dormosedan worked well for things he was mildly worried about but he absolutely could fight it for things he was more worried about… eg has was definitely still not happy about needles with it onboard…

Tbh I could say the same about IV sedation in that it worked really well for things where the main aim was just to keep him still but he wasn’t especially worried (eg X-rays) but he needed quite a lot of it to tolerate things he was actively unhappy about (eg CT scanning his head). Leahurst were really worried they’d given him so much he was a colic risk when he went there (he didn’t and was fine).
 
The only way I ever got T cobs legs done was to pre book vet for 1st appt, plus pro clipper man too.
Vet called when on way and Domesedan given. Yard kept quiet, clipper man arrived with 2 sets cordless clippers.
Vet arrived, iv sedation given, max 18/19 mins of T cob swaying madly whilst clipperman and vet both wielded clippers to legs. Then T would steam through us like an angry rhino despite enough drugs to sink a ship.
His sheer fright and anger would over ride anything, hence oral sedation 1st before vet arrived.

It took me 18 months before I had desensitised him enough to allow me to buzz small clippers over him.
Good luck.
 
It took about 2 years to desensitise Snoopy to having his legs clipped…like Ozzy, he was always fine with his body being done. However, Snoopy just danced and snatched rather than kicked. Ozzy is even more angry when sedated than when he’s not!

Having slept on it, I’ve decided to try various approaches to training rather than go through IV sedation again - and I’ll only start this after the mites have been eliminated. Not only was it really unpleasant to see Ozzy so distressed, I was really on edge because it was so dangerous for OH. It was so weird because Ozzy looked seriously doped up but swayed and kicked out (with surprisingly accurate aim) when his legs were touched! He was OK with the vet, even tolerating the stethoscope, until she pressed his neck and he knew a needle was imminent. Obviously we didn’t know about this until yesterday- just another one of Ozzy’s little ‘issues’!
 
Sorry i havent read all replies. I had a mare that was very resistant to sedation, the same sort of thing where she had to be topped up a few times.

After the first time the vet suggested I gave her a bit of oral sedation before the vet arrived as she was vet shy in general. This did help a little bit but wasn't that easy to do either!

But the biggest help to this problem was working with her needle-shy problem as if they are tense or wound up as the sedation goes in it doesn't work as well (apparently and has been my experience). Both vets I had were great but one in particular was brilliant at this, he was amazing to work with her with the needle and once she was more relaxed with that part the sedation worked MUCH better.
 
Not for clipping, but various vets have all seemed surprised at the amount of sedative needed to get dales pony colts sleepy enough to geld, and none of those ponies were remotely upset or agitated beforehand
 
Goldenstar said:
Where you trying to clip legs to control mites?
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We knew he had CPL because we could feel the lumps either side of the pastern - but we didn’t have a firm diagnosis and couldn’t see the extent of the damage due to masses of feather. He does have mites too (stamping and biting his legs) and we know that this is a big factor in CPL, so the feathers had to come off.
Now they are off and we have a diagnosis- the big issue now is that they can’t really be allowed to get long again. So we will need alternative plans…
 
It's funny how individual they can be with it - I have to say to every vet, please do not give Dex the full dose, he only needs enough for a 12.2hh, or he will go down (he is now 17.3hh, he's grown 2 inches this year weirdly) - they look at him suspiciously and say 'okay we'll start with that' and promptly he is resting his head on something, droppy lip, closed eyes and rocking slightly 🤣
 
My mini shetland fights any sedation, including oral sedation. She's also terrified of vets and needles.

Often the easiest thing is to give a large IM dose in to her backside, then top it up with IV once she has at least stopped whizzing round her stable.

She needs enough sleepy juice to take down an elephant. At least you know now that Ozzy needs a big dose right at the start which should help.

My Fell pony meanwhile only needs enough to sedate a Shetland! 😆
 
As a working pupil, I can remember shaving legs like this with a Bic safety razor! We had one horse who needed ear plugs and a towel over his eyes for anything leg related too.

Also knew a woman who swore by Nair hair removal cream 😬😬 though that's not something I'd try.
 
meandmyself said:
As a working pupil, I can remember shaving legs like this with a Bic safety razor! We had one horse who needed ear plugs and a towel over his eyes for anything leg related too.

Also knew a woman who swore by Nair hair removal cream 😬😬 though that's not something I'd try.
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Oh my goodness! Apart from anything else, I can almost smell it just by thinking about it...🤢
 
SOS said:
Going to dive into the science a little here…

Very simply and broadly speaking some horses get “up” too quickly or at the sight of a vet and therefore the receptors the drug (or various effects of it) needs to bind too may already be blocked. That’s why sedation in an already stressed horse can often be unreliable.

Most block an element of their fight or flight system and in some horses they will do anything to keep “fighting” the sedation I.e keep showing their fight or flight response even if most of their receptors are blocked by the drug. Or suddenly have enough flight or fight to respond in an outburst.

If a vet is made aware a horse hasn’t responded well to a particular sedation before then they may be able to suggest a different combination of drugs which could work better or suggest oral sedation given before the horse notices anything is going on, to then be topped up by the vet on their arrival. So just because a horse hasn’t taken to a sedation before I wouldn’t rule out trying again with support of your vet.

Make sure if they are doing something painful that the horse has pain relief with/and sedation. Most vet’s are very good at this now but old fashioned way of thinking was you don’t need to give pain relief until they are awake - to give context, this wasn’t to be cruel but because of the increased risk of pain relief drug side effects alongside sedation or GA side effects aka lowering heart rate. However we now know that just because an animal is sedated and unresponsive to pain to our eyes, does not mean the body is not responding, sending triggers to the pain receptors and making them more sensitive, which means when they become conscious, the pain response is much higher.

Anecdotally however I have too seen them snap out of sedation rather violently and drugged up, uncoordinated, worried, three quarter of a ton animals in a small space aren’t very fun.

Hope that might shed some light on why they react such ways!
Click to expand...
Absolutely.
No idea what was used with Ozzy, but we used to use ACP (tablets, various strengths, or intra muscular) sedation, and if the horse was already on high alert to ‘a pending issue’, a doping effect could not always be guaranteed!
And that doping effect was very variable, as in same quantity of active ingredient for a similarly proportioned animal - some snoring on their knees, others extremely sprightly indeed.
I don’t think manufacturers renewed the tablet form licence for horses, just dogs or something, and it was always a bit questionable with male horses due to possible penile retraction issues. But there seem to be plenty more choices of sedatives to try out, now.
If the horse is likely to p*ss about, might be a lot safer restraining it than having a woozy one flailing all over.
Well done for getting to the hair roots, hope you can keep on top of things! A successful birthday!
 
Nancykitt said:
It took about 2 years to desensitise Snoopy to having his legs clipped…like Ozzy, he was always fine with his body being done. However, Snoopy just danced and snatched rather than kicked. Ozzy is even more angry when sedated than when he’s not!

Having slept on it, I’ve decided to try various approaches to training rather than go through IV sedation again - and I’ll only start this after the mites have been eliminated. Not only was it really unpleasant to see Ozzy so distressed, I was really on edge because it was so dangerous for OH. It was so weird because Ozzy looked seriously doped up but swayed and kicked out (with surprisingly accurate aim) when his legs were touched! He was OK with the vet, even tolerating the stethoscope, until she pressed his neck and he knew a needle was imminent. Obviously we didn’t know about this until yesterday- just another one of Ozzy’s little ‘issues’!
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Polo or cricketer’s helmet when messing with his legs, maybe? He sounds an incredibly tolerant, nice human being, and definitely doesn’t need his face rearranging.
 
I'm glad someone has posted a thread on this!! It highlights a problem which I'm sure a lot of owners have.

My pony is as sweet as cherry pie, a totally lovely girl in every way and there's nothing I can fault her for. She'll do anything to please you, and loves her "job" as a happy hacker. No vices, no napping, nothing.

But when she's given any kind of injected sedative, she turns into something that is very dangerous indeed, and I'm not joking. The pony from hell!

The biggest catastrophe we had here at the yard was when a new vet to our practice, turned up to do her teeth. This particular vet was tiny, she can't have been more than 5ft, and petite with it. That shouldn't have mattered, but I explained to her that if she was going to sedate the pony, she'd either have to give her nothing at all and work around that fact, OR give her enough to bring down a hippo. She chose to ignore that advice, and instead gave her a piddles-worth, saying that she'd "see how she went". Huge mistake! She was working with a pedestal in front of her. Pony started fighting the sedation - and the pedestal went flying, pony just crashed through it - very nearly trampling the (tiny) vet, plus myself and a friend (who knows the pony very well) who did our best to hang onto the leading rope.

Everyone agreed that this wasn't going to work. More sedation wouldn't have helped at that stage. So vet packed up her stuff and disappeared. I got an EDT to do her teeth, who did her teeth perfectly OK and there was no issue whatsoever.

When pony had to be sedated for scoping, to investigate for asthma, we had our regular vet, who did sedate her very deeply - to the stage where she physically could not have been given any more, period. She still fought it, and it just wasn't easy watching her struggling throughout the procedure, I resolved there and then that I'd never do that to her again.

When the time comes for her to leave me; she will be put down by shooting rather than lethal injection. It just wouldn't be fair to do that to her.
 
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