Finding it hard to cope with this behaviour!

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nativepony

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I have posted here previously about one of my lurchers & his behaviour but I'm just finding him harder to cope with. He's always been an opportunist, steals food & raids the bin - when we go out we have a ritual of barricading the kitchen - door at one end is locked and door at the other is shut and I secure it by wrapping the Hoover cord round it!!! He's been ok with this for a while but has now learnt to open the door (he
tried the locked one first and has scraped all the paint off!), yesterday I
came home to find he'd eaten and strewn across the floor a box of shreddies plus eaten most of a tub of Plaque Off, today it was a tub of zinc & vitamin c tablets!!! His stealing is
so extreme and our house is getting wrecked, we have deep claw marks on our worksurfaces where he's jumped up, - he will even pull things through the cat flap & chew it up if anything is left on the back step. At night we dread going to bed for fear if what we'll come down to!! I've tried crating him but he gets massively distressed and started self harming!!! He also opened the coats cupboard the other day & chewed up a handbag which had a couple of dog treats in it. Just at my wits end - can anyone offer any advice? Btw, he does this regardless of how much exercise he's had, in fact he has a run for as long as he wants off lead every day. I've been told 'it's just a lurcher thing!!!' but our other lurcher wouldn't dream of behaving like this!
 
Does he only do this behaviour when left alone in the house? It sounds very much like separation anxiety rather than deliberate theiving. If you do a search on here for separation anxiety there's been lots of threads with helpful information. :)
 
It sounds as if he might be suffering from separation anxiety? I am sure somebody more knowledgeable is going to come along soon and give you more information.
 
Is there any option to kennel him outside during the day/when you are out?
Re the crating, it is something you have to be very methodical/routine with, not just somewhere you shut the dog when you want to have a bit of piece and quiet, it needs gradual exposure.

There are some dogs you'll never tire out through running alone, some need a lot of mental stimulation, problem solving and it does sound like he is massively self-entertaining, so you might need to think of a job for him to do.

What is he being fed? Obviously you need to do something quick before he eats the wrong thing and damages himself badly.
 
ditto the above - you need to make him safe either in a kennel and run or get him used to a crate. Have you tried leaving him with a large kong stuffed and frozen or a nice bone?
 
cinnamontoast said:
....... Is he crate trained? .......
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nativepony said:
.......!! I've tried crating him but he gets massively distressed and started self harming!!! .......
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It sounds to me as though your dog objects, strongly, to being alone. Alone, as in without you. Crating or caging such animals, is cruel and we should have no part of it.

In my opinion there's very little "Training" which will have any significant effect. I've had a dog or two, such as yours, one being a lurcher, and the answer was to have them with me, 24/7. By with me, I mean that they were in the car with me when I went about my/our, daily business. That may not be possible for you, and I'd suggest that if you have jobs where you have to leave your dog, for extended periods, then this will not be an option. It would seem to me, if he can't be with you, during the day, then you should consider re-homing, or both he and you will have to suffer the situation.

If you are able to have him with you, during the day, then by weaning him from you, gradually, he may learn that separation isn't such a bad thing! It isn't easy, there are no simple answers, and it causes a deal of distress, from both sides.

Alec.
 
Thanks for the replies - he always used to be fine in a crate until my husband stopped working from home and I had to leave him while I go to the yard on a daily basis. I do think he suffers from SA but it hadn't actually occured to me that this behaviour is actually that but does make sense. He's not that extreme while we're in the house although if we've ever accidentally left the kitchen door open at night he would (and has) done it! Not really able to keep him outside during the day but tomorrow will leave him with a frozen kong (again something I always used to do but have got out of the habit :-( ). I really love him and we've come such a long way with him as he had so many issues but it's getting to the point where I wonder if he'd be happier living with a family where there is someone in all the time :-(
He's fed Arden Grange lamb and we hardly keep anything on worksurfaces any more but it's virtually impossible to keep everything away. He found and wrecked my lovely leather handbag I thought was safe from him and ate a packet of Rennies that he found!
 
I don't think crating a dog is cruel. It keeps them safe, but I am not suggesting she crate her dog if it's not used to it. Was skim reading and missed the bit about him getting distressed in one. :o Am coping with two dogs with buster collars (one claw flapping like a hinge that I snipped off yesterday and one with a strange hot spot, both obsessive lickers and the demanding one who is collar free but all three want to have turns on knee.

I'm not some nasty owner who leaves her dogs in a cage all day! Although Bear is confined to his cage (once I've extracted his brother) so the others don't lick for him.

Note the open door. The one on the left was never crate trained but likes it:
IMAG0382.jpg
 
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Cinnamontoast - he will happily go in the crate while for example we're eating our dinner, the door is left open so either dog can use it if they want! Its when you close the door and walk away he gets upset. I did try all the proper crate training advice but he just gets so upset. Hope both your dogs make a speedy recovery! :-)
 
Can't edit as on my phone but have only just read Alec's reply - I don't believe crates are cruel but obviously when he is that distressed it's not fair! I've tried taking him to the yard with me but he has to stay in the car and when I'm out of sight he wrecks the car - has chewed through seatbelts and ripped all the lining on the roof in the car! Would rehoming him just be passing all these problems onto someone else and then who knows where he'll end up?!!
 
Nothing wrong with Cinnomen asking/suggesting in regard to a crate (and as stated he clearly was at one stage) it's only because he is now used to a routine where he has been out of it so long he is not used to being in it any longer and in turn has spend to much time and become to reliant on human company, you can indeed re crate (it would have to be done very sympathetically and gradually (as CC suggests) it's about how to introduce or reintroduce the crate that matters.

Depending on his cross some lurcher types do suffer more commonly with anxiety more than others (we get alot of lurchers in for this reason) and we have to work through it otherwise we would never beable to rehome, and most are opportunist thieves and bench surfers:D

A few questions..............
Where does he sleep?
where does he spend his time when you are home?
Where is his main bed in the home or does he lie in chairs beside you etc?
If you where to leave huge big bones and fresh kongs would he spend time eating those instead of the food raiding/destruction? have you tried leaving such things for very short periods?
What is a typical daily routine when you leave him? hours left?

The thing is with rehoming to a home where someone is in all the time (Is never actually accurate or the answer) as this means indeed someone will spend alot of time with him (making him worse) for the day they have to leave (and that day will come) belie me and the behaviour will manifest 10 fold and when they then return home and get the shock of the life at the destruction (god knows where he will end) or how many homes he will go through, esp homes with no concept of SA and brush it off as "oh I will leave a chew stick he will be fine" kind of homes;) I would work through it for his sake and your sanity.
 
Alec Swan said:
It sounds to me as though your dog objects, strongly, to being alone. Alone, as in without you. Crating or caging such animals, is cruel and we should have no part of it.

.......

Alec.
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Read my words again. I have never said that the practice is cruel, per se. What I have said, and will stand by, is that there are those dogs which find it to be stressful, and again, in those circumstances, we should have no part of it. Inflict misery on your dogs, those that can't cope with it, if you wish, but in the case of the OP, the dog patently can't cope with a restrictive an claustrophobic containment. Neither would I.

Alec.
 
The type of crate makes a difference as well I believe. I prefer the plastic airline carriers as they are darker/more covered/make the dog feel more secure. I would definitely get him a box or a dog guard for the car.

Rehoming him is all well and good but sometimes **** happens and you CAN'T be with the dog 24/7, God forbid there is an accident and someone has to go to hospital, or an emergency with work or children or something. Dogs are pack animals but even in the wild they are not together 24/7 and it is unhealthy to let them expect company all the time IMO.
 
CaveCanem said:
.......

Rehoming him is all well and good but sometimes **** happens and you CAN'T be with the dog 24/7, .......
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....... and I understand that too. It sometimes brings us around to the acceptance, that whilst we will do our level best for our dogs, if they are unable to fit in with us, OR US WITH THEM, then we need to consider our joint futures. It's difficult for the OP, and I'm not without sympathy, but.......

Alec.
 
Agreed (as always :o). One of mine had terrible SA and I took her everywhere with me - I worked evenings and weekends only so my OH would be home for her, she came with me to the yard, to visit family, all days out revolved around her. I was literally never seen without that dog glued to my side.

Except that she couldn't come with me to university, of course - I missed as many lectures as I could (and consequently only scraped a pass without honours!) and I couldn't work a minimum wage bar job forever or we'd all be homeless, dog and humans alike. So we used a crate to safely introduce her to the idea that it was okay to be alone for short periods. Took a lot of bloody hard work, it wasn't as if it was a shortcut to just lock the dog up.

It was successful, in the end, and though I still work crappy hours to ensure they're not alone all day I can earn more than I used to. The crate has stayed up, though the door is never shut any more, and dog #2 who has never been crate trained has claimed it as his safe place.
 
Cayla, he sleeps in his bed downstairs but creeps up in the early hours and gets on our bed - he used to sleep in our room with us but we did sleep training like you do with children and he's now much better, our other dog sleeps on her bed downstairs too! When we're home he generally is in his bed in the living room - he's not allowed next to us on the sofa!! He's left at about 8.30 and I get home around midday - as I said I did always leave him with a kong but haven't done as of late (my fault) but will do tomorrow! :)
 
Alec Swan said:
....... and I understand that too. It sometimes brings us around to the acceptance, that whilst we will do our level best for our dogs, if they are unable to fit in with us, OR US WITH THEM, then we need to consider our joint futures. It's difficult for the OP, and I'm not without sympathy, but.......

Alec.
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A lot of dogs don't have separation anxiety that are given that title its actually pretty rare but you can help your dog to have those behaviours by pandering to their behaviour which doesn't help you, your family or the dog. Sometimes a short stay in Kennels can help just because they don't have their normal environment and have to get used to being alone but it has to be done under supervision of a behaviourist that will assess them and then give you instructions so no dogs on beds, sofa, allowed to follow you around the house, constant touch or attention etc.

If your going to go down the crate route get one that is oversized so they can stand full height and stretch out both length and lying down. The recommended sizes are far too small for a long term bed.

I'm not saying this will work for everyone but this is what I do with mine:

You can start getting your dog used to having a crate with the door shut slowly, give it a good comfy bed, make sure there is water available (kennel water bowls that attach to the walls are great) and put a blanket over it one that can cover the whole thing. Bit like a birdie in a cage. Get yourself a good book and a small treat (kong is ideal) make sure pee'd and poo'd had some exercise so tired to start, pop kong in with dog 3 sides covered door side uncovered ask dog to lie down, give kong - wait command - shut door, release so he can eat. The you sit with your back to the crate read your book. ignore any fuss if you have to sing... no idea why but seems to calm them down and me.

It takes a while but you slowly move away from the crate, do in small bursts so 5 mins, 10 mins, 15 mins, half hour etc with time change do increment seat change getting further away till you can leave the room. I alternate with doing the washing up or another task that needs doing but I totally ignore the dog. Until the end of the designated time. Can take weeks and sometimes you have to go back a step or two but it does work at least it has for me.
 
horseloaner said:
A lot of dogs don't have separation anxiety that are given that title its actually pretty rare but you can help your dog to have those behaviours by pandering to their behaviour which doesn't help you, your family or the dog. .......
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I agree with you, and without question, except that as the dog in question is given to self harm, would you still maintain your stance? I'll agree that the anxiety of separation from the human is not always the reason for dogs which display the symptoms of intense frustration, but shutting such an animal, in a cage, will only exacerbate what's wrong, in my view.

Alec.
 
Poor you, it sounds as if you're going through a really hard time. I wonder if a calmer of some sort would help (for the dog not you :)) My latest dog was really nervous and aggressive when I had him 18 months ago, I had a behaviourist to see him and about the only useful thing he did was give me (sell me!) some skullcap and vallerian tablets. I gave him these for a month or so until he got used to his place in the household. He is now a reformed dog :) You sound at your wit's end but still wanting to keep the dog so it may be worth trying this - as a last resort. I must say I have had 'pre-owned dogs' for many years and this is the first one I've had such a problem with. It may not work for you but could be worth a try! Anyway the best of luck and well done you for trying so hard.
 
Alec Swan said:
I agree with you, and without question, except that as the dog in question is given to self harm, would you still maintain your stance? I'll agree that the anxiety of separation from the human is not always the reason for dogs which display the symptoms of intense frustration, but shutting such an animal, in a cage, will only exacerbate what's wrong, in my view.

Alec.
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Would have to see the dog but if he's self harming when left in the crate alone then its worth trying to retrain the crate association before you start leaving him alone. The only difference between the crate and being shut in the kitchen is the amount of room he has to do damage in...
 
A dog that eats things that can harm them when left as well as destruction then I do believe reintroducing a crate would be the better option for safety.
Seperation anxiety is indeed created by humans as suggested by HL and we/I deal with alot so I guess from my point of view not so rare:p (either that or I am dealing with them all):D, maybe sever SA is rare and I would not say the OP's dog has severe SA. I have to work with alot of seperation anxiety and this is how I have adapted the way I work depending on the severity of the problem the human has created to the point I have never failed to stop the behaviours but I do as suggested do all the logical things, like introduce a healthy exercise regime and hold off with attention and affection UNTIL a routine is in place (this seems alien) to other people, the self and same that ask for help with such behaviours:p In here the first thing a new dog attaches it's self to is not me, it first finds comfort where I place it (generally a crate coupled with lots of exercise and play time with other dogs);) it will then spend more time with me and my dogs as it accepts lone time and the house routine.
I have worked well into the hundreds now (it's very distressing for owners) a dog with true seperation can harm it's self and literally have a house looking like it's been burgled in a short space of time and it's one of the most common reason we get dogs handed into us. If we did not work with the issue though we would never beable to rehome as im realistic in knowing the dog with be passed from pillar to post:rolleyes:
Obs there is just sheer boredom and unused energy which is more common to see.
It's easy for me to say it's easy to remedy because I have dealt with so many now (and in the beginning Im sure I cried a few tears):o:D when I was exhausted and trying to sleep off the night shift with a dog with other ideas and wanting to be with me.
This is why I always bang on about "creating a routine" before you start to lavish the dog with your constant love and attention (mentally that's not great) for the animal but us humans believe they need it when they have just come from hell so we lavish it (also puppies are easy to carry around with us and keep on our kness and have on our beds) this cannot continue forever:p as when they grow or we have to earn a living, go to college or it's to hot to take them in the car it's a different matter;), then when the problems begin it's only then we understand how we created it.

There are such easy ways to create a routine where by your are encouraging your dog to feel comfortable and secure in it's own space in a very positive manner be it an aid like a baby gate or a crate. Creating the routine whilst you literally sleep or watch tv:p (remedies it easy and very quick) and very positively for the dog.
OP try the food distractions as you suggest, if he has true SA he will not touch the objects you leave, if he will take them then stock pile some long lasting goodies (frozen kongs) even to swap and change when needed and huge bones (swapped frequently for fresh) and stag bars, all last a long time and do actually physically tire them whilst chewing as well as relax if not then if you think a crate guide will help you along the way and would like to reintroduce one then Im happy to share.:)
 
horseloaner said:
Would have to see the dog but if he's self harming when left in the crate alone then its worth trying to retrain the crate association before you start leaving him alone. The only difference between the crate and being shut in the kitchen is the amount of room he has to do damage in...
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^^^ As above, sometimes to much space can actually add to the frenzied stress and panick the dog whips it's self up into and a smaller secure space is actually what is needed, it's always best to start small and gradually increase than the opposite.
And indeed the key to the crate is the dog using it whilst their is someone home.
 
Thankyou so much everyone - especially Cayla for such detailed replies and words of wisdom! I have prepared 2 kongs stuffed with dairy lea(!) and they are in the freezer as I type! Husband has just informed me he has a rare day off tomorrow so the true test of him being left alone with just our other dog for company will be on Thursday so I will let you all know how he gets on. Really appreciate all your help! :-)
 
cinnamontoast said:
I am not suggesting she crate her dog if it's not used to it. Was skim reading and missed the bit about him getting distressed in one.
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Alec Swan said:
Read my words again. I have never said that the practice is cruel, per se. What I have said, and will stand by, is that there are those dogs which find it to be stressful, and again, in those circumstances, we should have no part of it.
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And as I said above ^^ I don't think she should crate him to resolve the issue if he's not used to it.

I mustn't post in a hurry in future!! Have been out to Options Evening for Year 9, just got back, large vodka in paw.

OP, hope you work things out. :)
 
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