suebingham
Well-Known Member
just read the article on the H&H homepage. Have never heard of this practice -- sounds pretty awful, frankly. Anybody really think it does any good?
Firing
- Thread starter suebingham
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Blizzard
Well-Known Member
a horse at the yard I used to work at was bar fired.
He then had 6 months box rest and was put in the field.
On his first face after recoving, he was a pointer, his legs broke down near the end, he wouldnt pull up and won the race, but legs were a mess and now he has to have at least 3yrs in the field.
I have a pic somewhere of when they were healing.
I remember the state of them when they were first done.
Needless to say it clearly didnt work for him and I would never consider having it done.
He then had 6 months box rest and was put in the field.
On his first face after recoving, he was a pointer, his legs broke down near the end, he wouldnt pull up and won the race, but legs were a mess and now he has to have at least 3yrs in the field.
I have a pic somewhere of when they were healing.
I remember the state of them when they were first done.
Needless to say it clearly didnt work for him and I would never consider having it done.
vicijp
Well-Known Member
Here we go again....... (there are loads of discussions on this, one quite recently).
Yes I do think it does good if done properly. The most common mistake people make is to give too much box rest. They need to be kept moving and turned out as soon as possible (last one I had was 6 weeks).
I have known hundreds of horses pin fired and resume a succesful racing career, the only ones I know that havent worked are the ones not treated properly. ie, Given too much box rest and not enough time off altogether.
The main plus is that it takes the focus off the main injury and makes the legs a pair again. The horse can then work evenly and there is less risk of the other leg going, which is what usually happens without it. This is where the old adage 'its the time that does it' comes in, yes the time is the key but if the horse is working wonky donk when it comes back into work then somethings gotta go.
I dont agree with bar firing.
Yes I do think it does good if done properly. The most common mistake people make is to give too much box rest. They need to be kept moving and turned out as soon as possible (last one I had was 6 weeks).
I have known hundreds of horses pin fired and resume a succesful racing career, the only ones I know that havent worked are the ones not treated properly. ie, Given too much box rest and not enough time off altogether.
The main plus is that it takes the focus off the main injury and makes the legs a pair again. The horse can then work evenly and there is less risk of the other leg going, which is what usually happens without it. This is where the old adage 'its the time that does it' comes in, yes the time is the key but if the horse is working wonky donk when it comes back into work then somethings gotta go.
I dont agree with bar firing.
vicijp
Well-Known Member
Fairynuff
Well-Known Member
I worked in a clinic when it was a normal course of practice. Ive seen knees, hocks, tendons and fetlocks done. I dont know if the firing works or the time spent off after which works but I have seen many horses return to racing, showjumping and eventing without having further problems. The cases I was involved in had the added 'insult' of having red mercury rubbed into the wounds. RM works as a blister and causes further irritation increasing bloodflow to the area. To be honest, I didnt see one horse overly upset or off their feed and all were given low level painkillers. Their legs were horrific to see and the smell after a few days was YUCH but as I said , they didnt seem too bothered or stressed. Mairi.
Fairynuff
Well-Known Member
I second that! M.
suebingham
Well-Known Member
Sorry -- guess I should have looked further back in the forum history but I had just read the article and it seems pretty drastic. Thanks for the info.
Klaudette
Active Member
It is a barbaric practice. The reason why it appears to work is because the horse is in so much pain it doesnt want to move around thence the tendon damage begins to repair.
I will welcome the day the RCVS (Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons) bans this senseless procedure (again). I certainly would never do it, even if an owner requested!
Why do you think there are lots of suggestions for getting tendons to heal quicker...? thats because none work or work that well... (with perhaps the exception of stem cell treatment)
REST REST REST!
I will welcome the day the RCVS (Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons) bans this senseless procedure (again). I certainly would never do it, even if an owner requested!
Why do you think there are lots of suggestions for getting tendons to heal quicker...? thats because none work or work that well... (with perhaps the exception of stem cell treatment)
REST REST REST!
vicijp
Well-Known Member
Stem cell will soon go the same place as all the other fads that have come along - into the history books. Remember those implant jobbies about 10 yrs ago?
Have you ever actually seen a horse pin fired? Pain doesnt even come into it. Nerve blocks, sedation and pain killers mean they dont even feel the actual procedure. Anti imflammatories stop the pain afterwards - I have certainly never known a horse sore from having it done.
Have you ever actually seen a horse pin fired? Pain doesnt even come into it. Nerve blocks, sedation and pain killers mean they dont even feel the actual procedure. Anti imflammatories stop the pain afterwards - I have certainly never known a horse sore from having it done.
Klaudette
Active Member
Yes I have unfortunately.
As to the carbon fibre implants, to those in the profession with sense it was obvious it would be a fad.
Anti inflammatories dont stop pain by the way. Nerve fibres are still active.
I am actively working on the RCVS to ban this practice.
As to the carbon fibre implants, to those in the profession with sense it was obvious it would be a fad.
Anti inflammatories dont stop pain by the way. Nerve fibres are still active.
I am actively working on the RCVS to ban this practice.
evsj
Well-Known Member
Even the amount of rest is in question now though. I heard of someone pioneering new treatment whereby the injured horse is given controlled excercise right from when it is disgnosed.
Most of the horses off the track in Cyprus that we got were bar-fired Cypriots were generally not very nice to their race-horses though - no offence meant to any Cypriots!) and I don't think any of them were ever lame with tendon problems in the two years I worked with them.
Most of the horses off the track in Cyprus that we got were bar-fired Cypriots were generally not very nice to their race-horses though - no offence meant to any Cypriots!) and I don't think any of them were ever lame with tendon problems in the two years I worked with them.
Fairynuff
Well-Known Member
When it was banned in the UK the horses were shipped over to Ireland and fired anyway. Banning it will just mean that those who believe in it will have it done anyway so wouldnt it be better NOT to ban it and have the horse done at home using the necessary pain relief etc? Banning things doesnt make them go away, it just makes them be done on the quiet. As I said in my post, I did not see one horse (including TBs) go off their feed or in obvious pain. They all moved around their box in a normal although stiff way. All were led out in hand for 20 mins twice a day 3 days after firing. After a week of this, I had to put a chifney on some as they were being silly buggers = not that much pain if you can prance and fart around. Sorry, I think banning it is wrong.
Anti inflams do help with pain relief. When tissue is damaged a chemical called arachidonic acid is released which is then acted on by cyclo-oxyginase. This results in the conversion of the arachidonic acid into prostoglandins which causes the symptoms of swelling and incease the sensitivity of the pain receptors in that area.
Anti-inflammatory drugs neutralise the cyclo-oxyginase so the arachidonic acid cant be converted into prostoglandins thereby reducing swelling heat AND pain. Mairi.
Anti inflams do help with pain relief. When tissue is damaged a chemical called arachidonic acid is released which is then acted on by cyclo-oxyginase. This results in the conversion of the arachidonic acid into prostoglandins which causes the symptoms of swelling and incease the sensitivity of the pain receptors in that area.
Anti-inflammatory drugs neutralise the cyclo-oxyginase so the arachidonic acid cant be converted into prostoglandins thereby reducing swelling heat AND pain. Mairi.
Klaudette
Active Member
It actually 'prostAglandins' and cyclo-oxygEnase'
Cyclo-oxygenase is INHIBITED not neutralised.
I rest my case.
Cyclo-oxygenase is INHIBITED not neutralised.
I rest my case.
collie
Well-Known Member
I cant say i have seen this practice carried out recently and i am 52 years old. However as a boy helping my father who was a blacksmith i remember this being caried out quite a bit on some horses. I cant remember the horses being off work for to long and i cant say any of them were any the worse for it, mind you in these days if they didnt get back to work fairly quickly they were gone. I must admit it does look pretty fearsome when it is done but it did appear to do the trick in most of the cases i can remember.
Fairynuff
Well-Known Member
Do you like hunting for hairs in eggs? Sorry if my spelling is not up to scratch ; none of us are perfect! Mairi.
Lucy_Ally
Well-Known Member
I think the problem is that anyone with science or veterinary training would struggle to point out any real benefits to firing horses tendons as there has been research carried out that actually demonstrates that it is ineffective. The camp that are pro-firing have usually got anecdotal evidence that it "worked" for their horse/horses, however this is not justification for its continued use IMO. New research is improving our understanding of tendon injuries and helping to develop new ideas for training regimes and veterinary treatment all the time, its time to ditch out dated and ineffective procedures such as firing and blistering IMO.
puddicat
Well-Known Member
Quote: there has been research carried out that actually demonstrates that it is ineffective.
No it didn't, it "failed to show firing was effective". There is an important difference, you don't prove the null hypothesis, you just fail to reject it!
No it didn't, it "failed to show firing was effective". There is an important difference, you don't prove the null hypothesis, you just fail to reject it!
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
I wonder if in 20 years time we will look back on all firing practises and talk about how brutal they were...??
peterthepony
Well-Known Member
Weve been learning about College over the past few weeks, and i have mixed views on Firing, i know of 3 horses that have been fired and 1 of them it worked very well and he is still going now (was fired at 16 and is now 26) but the other 2 it didn't work aswell, but i think in some cases it can be good for the horse.
puddicat
Well-Known Member
YES that's just what I was wondering. It seems like a bizarre anachronism to me that the practice continues, regardless of whether there is some benefit.
puddicat
Well-Known Member
So what is the basis of your belief that that it can be good for the horse? If the extent of your experience is that it didn't on 2 occasions and did on one is this better than the expected outcome given random chance?
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
I don't know a lot about it, just my v limited personal experience (and that's not directly related to the OP), but it certainly seems like a procedure that came straight from the middle ages....
Nailed
Well-Known Member
Firing or thermocautery is an old practise which has been around for years and the pain of the process is now greatly reduced with anestetics and after care. The damage to the leg improves the levels of circulation around the tendon sheaths. The extra damage stimulate the circulation system of the leg which is vital for repair as the tendons have really poor blood supplies as it is. Therefor i see grounds for the use of firing and have seen sucess with horses who have been pin fired, bar fired and both.
I myself have an ex-race horse who did his SDFT on his near fore leg but was not fired. He was out of action for two years while it healed and it healed fine. However i always worry it will go again.
I have seen fired horses that are fine afterwards, Not got much experience with racers but i have seen it in showjumpers.
Lou x
I myself have an ex-race horse who did his SDFT on his near fore leg but was not fired. He was out of action for two years while it healed and it healed fine. However i always worry it will go again.
I have seen fired horses that are fine afterwards, Not got much experience with racers but i have seen it in showjumpers.
Lou x
puddicat
Well-Known Member
Me again sorry but I'm enjoying this thread:
Quote: Stem cell will soon go the same place as all the other fads that have come along
LOL Well now, I wonder... It certainly not fashionable at the moment to point out that the king is not wearing any clothes but the feeling I got from last year's BEVA Congress was that the stem cell king is just about managing to hold on to a pair Y fronts at the moment. The initial hype of stem cell therapy has died down somewhat as scientists rushing to get treatment have run up against the (inevitable?) complications in an area with an simply awesome number of potential problems. I'm waited with bated breath for real convincing statistical evidence that those working on equine tendon repair using stem cells have managed to achieve anything that improves significantly on wandering around a field for 6 months.
Quote: Stem cell will soon go the same place as all the other fads that have come along
LOL Well now, I wonder... It certainly not fashionable at the moment to point out that the king is not wearing any clothes but the feeling I got from last year's BEVA Congress was that the stem cell king is just about managing to hold on to a pair Y fronts at the moment. The initial hype of stem cell therapy has died down somewhat as scientists rushing to get treatment have run up against the (inevitable?) complications in an area with an simply awesome number of potential problems. I'm waited with bated breath for real convincing statistical evidence that those working on equine tendon repair using stem cells have managed to achieve anything that improves significantly on wandering around a field for 6 months.
suebingham
Well-Known Member
Well -- my goodness! Thought this thread had quietly gone to bed but I guess not. The reason I was initially wondering about it, is that I had an ex-racehorse years ago that was chronically unsound from a bowed tendon. At no time, did any of my vets ever even mention this practice -- so I'm thinking it's not widely done over here. (I'm not sure if that is true -- but I did have a lot of different vets look at her over the time that I owned her). I'm thinking I might ask my current vet whenever I see him next about it just to see what he thinks.
Very interesting discussion though. Thank you again.
Very interesting discussion though. Thank you again.
Lucy_Ally
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Me again sorry but I'm enjoying this thread:
Quote: Stem cell will soon go the same place as all the other fads that have come along
LOL Well now, I wonder... It certainly not fashionable at the moment to point out that the king is not wearing any clothes but the feeling I got from last year's BEVA Congress was that the stem cell king is just about managing to hold on to a pair Y fronts at the moment. The initial hype of stem cell therapy has died down somewhat as scientists rushing to get treatment have run up against the (inevitable?) complications in an area with an simply awesome number of potential problems. I'm waited with bated breath for real convincing statistical evidence that those working on equine tendon repair using stem cells have managed to achieve anything that improves significantly on wandering around a field for 6 months.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is a trial underway currently that should help to answer this question.
Me again sorry but I'm enjoying this thread:
Quote: Stem cell will soon go the same place as all the other fads that have come along
LOL Well now, I wonder... It certainly not fashionable at the moment to point out that the king is not wearing any clothes but the feeling I got from last year's BEVA Congress was that the stem cell king is just about managing to hold on to a pair Y fronts at the moment. The initial hype of stem cell therapy has died down somewhat as scientists rushing to get treatment have run up against the (inevitable?) complications in an area with an simply awesome number of potential problems. I'm waited with bated breath for real convincing statistical evidence that those working on equine tendon repair using stem cells have managed to achieve anything that improves significantly on wandering around a field for 6 months.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is a trial underway currently that should help to answer this question.
Lucy_Ally
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Quote: there has been research carried out that actually demonstrates that it is ineffective.
No it didn't, it "failed to show firing was effective". There is an important difference, you don't prove the null hypothesis, you just fail to reject it!
[/ QUOTE ]
*sigh* I mustn't forget that the science police are always watching......
Quote: there has been research carried out that actually demonstrates that it is ineffective.
No it didn't, it "failed to show firing was effective". There is an important difference, you don't prove the null hypothesis, you just fail to reject it!
[/ QUOTE ]
*sigh* I mustn't forget that the science police are always watching......
The Virgin Dubble
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I dont agree with bar firing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Out of interest, why?
I dont agree with bar firing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Out of interest, why?