First-timer hunting a big, strong WBxID

[adsthelad]

So I'm planning on going hunting this year with my 16.3 WB x ID, he's a big middleweight and can be (very) strong when he wants to be. The issue is that he doesn't like being behind, so I'm worried that he will go nuts and start bolting the moment a horse jumps something in front of him. I've got a Cheltenham gag, will that be enough to stop him? I've found that when he's afraid of being left behind a two ring gag did absolutely nothing. He's hunted before but not with me (I've never hunted at all!) and not for a few years. Is there anything else that might help, or should I hope for the best... I'm also going to start with the cubbing lines to see how he is, but I have a feeling I might end up holding on for dear life.

 

[spacefaer]

Hmm - in what way is he strong? Does he just run through the bridle or does he leap about?

When you say "cubbing lines" I'm assuming you mean drag hunting?

 

[adsthelad]

He usually just runs through the bridle, and once he's going he completely ignores me - there's nothing I can do to stop or slow him down, I just have to wait until he tires himself out.
He also has a tendency to throw his head up in the air and go full giraffe mode, but with a running martingale I find I can't turn as well (or maybe it's too small?), however, when he bolts his does sometimes put his head down

All the hunting done here (I live in Jersey) is drag hunting, the cubbing is just shorter and slower

 

[hoorayhenry]

I hunt my mare in a waterford nelson gag. I really struggle to lift her head out hunting in anything else.

 

[adsthelad]

The corners of his mouth are quite sensitive in that he gets sores there really easily, so I'm not sure if a Waterford would be the best option for him.

 

[Bernster]

Honest opinion (bearing in mind I'm a wimp and only a leisure hunter, not a seasoned hunter)? EEEeeek !!! How strong a rider are you and how confident? Have you had him out in large/fast group hacks and gallops and how he's been then?

The right kit combo depends on how he is when he pulls, but the advice I was given in terms of tack was to bit up, martingale, neck strap (better to have more and use it lightly than not enough and have your arms pulled out). I spent many a time checking out people's bit combos and there are a whole host of options out there. The chelt gag is a strong bit and the choice of many, but there are also pelham/curb and double rein options if you can handle the 'knitting'. Or waterfords for leaners.

I also started out up front and stayed there, for an easy life ! Fine if you're bold, slightly tricky for a wimp. You might find he's tricky the first few times but settles in time.

 

[adsthelad]

I'm fairly strong, but you have to bear in mind that I'm a sixteen year old girl. The reason for having such a big horse is that although I'm relatively light for my height, I'm 6 foot - I look ridiculous on anything smaller. I'm not really that confident which doesn't help.
I haven't done much in a big group so I don't know how he would be, only with a couple of other people. It could be that I'm worrying about nothing and he'll be fine!
He also leans like crazy, from when I start riding him and it only get worse as he gets tired.
I know a few people who go hunting including a couple of green coats who said they keep an eye on me which gives a bit of reassurance but there's not much they can do if he's off on one.

 

[Bernster]

If it were me, I'd want to get him out to a few sp rides in a group and/or gallops and xc courses (with whatever tack combo I plan to use), if he goes well, try him at some early small meets if available (with a green ribbon in his tail), good nanny, up front if that's where he's happiest. Or if possible get someone experienced to take him for the first few times and see what they think. But that's a v cautious approach I realise.

 

[Orangehorse]

If it were me, I'd want to get him out to a few sp rides in a group and/or gallops and xc courses (with whatever tack combo I plan to use), if he goes well, try him at some early small meets if available (with a green ribbon in his tail), good nanny, up front if that's where he's happiest. Or if possible get someone experienced to take him for the first few times and see what they think. But that's a v cautious approach I realise.

This is the only sensible way to start. The thought of a large horse just tanking off across country with you is a frightening one. You are a guest on other people's land out with many other people wanting to have an enjoyable time and being in control is essential for your enjoyment and safety and the safety of enjoyment of others.

Still, most people find that there are times when the horse is going a lot faster than they are happy with and isn't that easy to pull up, so I do have sympathy.

But you need to get your brakes sorted before you go out hunting.

 

[Bernster]

This is the only sensible way to start. The thought of a large horse just tanking off across country with you is a frightening one. You are a guest on other people's land out with many other people wanting to have an enjoyable time and being in control is essential for your enjoyment and safety and the safety of enjoyment of others.

Still, most people find that there are times when the horse is going a lot faster than they are happy with and isn't that easy to pull up, so I do have sympathy.

But you need to get your brakes sorted before you go out hunting.

Well, that's good to read as it's my plan with my new boy. He's proving to be a steady eddie though, so this is an excessive plan on my part but better to be safe methinks !

 

[Hoof_Prints]

the biggest horse I hunt is a 15.2hh ISH so I don't envy you! I do have a tank of a 14.2hh mare who although small, is built like a tank and really charges out hunting. Tried a kimberwick, she is a runaway train in that, so tried a waterford dutch gag (i use it on my ISH for general XC) and she just figured although she couldn't lean on it, she could still just run off and ignore it. Then forked out on a cheltenham gag with the rope pieces to be sharper and stronger- well, might as well have used a snaffle! no brakes whatsoever. So all those were chucked in the drawer and I bought a sam marsh pelham, now she listens in that. Only bit we actually have brakes in! My sister is still hunting her in a kimberwick though as she feels the mare prefers that bit so jumps cleaner, and she doesn't mind being out of control. I hunt mine in a normal pelham as it's fairly strong but also quite soft with the straight rubber bar and a padded curb chain so he doesn't come back with a sore mouth. But yes, if you want brakes for a strong horse I'd try the sam marsh

"The Sam Marsh Pelham can be one of the most effective Pelhams. It features a broad flat-ported mouthpiece and the cheeks move indpendently. If properly used, will encourage flexion at both poll and lower jaw as is known for being useful for strong horses that lean on the bit. It promotes lightness in the hand, and is therefore popular for horses with fleshy mouths and tongues, such as cobs or hunters."

 

[npage123]

If it were me, I'd want to get him out to a few sp rides in a group and/or gallops and xc courses (with whatever tack combo I plan to use), if he goes well, try him at some early small meets if available (with a green ribbon in his tail), good nanny, up front if that's where he's happiest. Or if possible get someone experienced to take him for the first few times and see what they think. But that's a v cautious approach I realise.

Good advice, this.

In my opinion, if you feel you're going to need a stronger bit, then you've got to try it out on eg a hack or sponsored ride, well before the hunting. It's too much of a gamble to swap your usual bit for another on the day of the hunt and hoping for the best. It may make matters worse if he takes a huge dislike to a new bit.

By the sounds of it, your horse won't be happy to stay in the middle of the field with the more steady horses, let alone at the back at a slow pace. Some horses will just keep fighting you to get to the front, and you may find it easier to slot in somewhere at the front. Remember to always 'face the hounds' and it's strictly not allowed to overtake the 'red coats'/Masters. And for your first few hunts, maybe make sure you chose ones where all the jumps are optional. There are usually good info available on the Hunt's websites, but you will probably get all the details from the green coats who you already know, and I'm sure they'll look after you Hope you have fun and have a safe ride

 

[adsthelad]

Thank you everyone for your replies, apologies I'm only just replying now!
Bernster - There's not a huge amount of choice for me in regard to taking him on sponsored rides gallops and xc rides. There's only really one sponsored ride a year here and at the moment I don't have anyone to do it with. XC wise, no courses within hacking distance as the only one I can hire I would need a box to get to - a box I don't have. I'll try and hack him down to the beach a few times if I can though.
If I really have an issue then I might get a more experienced rider to take him until he settles down a bit, but I'd rather not.
Orangehorse - It really is a frightening thought! He's usually quite lazy, but can really put on some speed when it suits him...
Hoof_Prints - I googled a Sam Marsh Pelham, and it looks really quite severe! The big flat bar looks like it would inflict a lot of pressure. But then I suppose the Cheltenham would too, just in a different place.
npage123 - You could put anything in his mouth and he probably wouldn't care, but yes I'll definitely try out some faster work in it first just to see, and also to see that it works on him. I'll definitely speak to one of the green coats that I know and see if she wouldn't mind looking after me a bit, she's had some nasty falls and has a young child so she might be inclined to ride a bit more steadily. I'll also ask a lady from my yard who hunts as her horse is my horse's best friend - maybe if they're together mine will be less likely to leave him! Here's hoping!!

Also, just wondering are 'sticky bum' breeches any good? Been browsing a bit and considering investing a pair if they might give me just a little extra stickability out on the field.

Thanks!

 

[adsthelad]

Bumping, does anyone have any more advice?

 

[JanetGeorge]

Yep! And I can't think of a breed of horse for whom it's more true (Warmbloods can be 'hot', Irish Draughts can be strong and it's a potentially lethal combination.

There is nothing WRONG with putting on a slightly stronger bit for hunting but if you don't do the rest of it, you'll keep needing stronger and stronger. Your chap needs more basic schooling before you take him out hunting for the first time. He needs to have better brakes and be more responsive to voice (especially WHOA!) to the bit and to the seat. Ideally he will have been to a couple of small fun rides (if you can't control him EASILY on those then he's not ready to hunt.) Once you CAN control him on those, then ideally hound exercise (but you'll have o leave that until next year - most hunts have already started mounted hound exercise and once they get into faster exercise will not be as willing to let you come out. If he shows a miraculous improvement in the next month (which is very unlikely) you COULD try a quiet morning's cubhunting, preferably at a venue where there is very little roadwork.

I can't impress this upon you enough. You will NOT introduce ANY horse to hunting reasonably safely unless his basic schooling is right. Even a pure Irish Draught might behave like a total idiot on his first (or second) day. I assume you don't want to be badly injured or dead - and don't want everyone local who hunts to LOATHE you because of the disruption and possible accidents you have caused.

 

[LizzieRC1313]

I think it would definitely be worth getting someone v experienced (female) hunting to take him the first few times? I have a friend who's horse was a lunatic out hunting, would not stand. When he was sold he was taught to stand and behave by an experienced rider. My point is that if an experienced rider can't hold him, you probably won't be able to either. If you can find someone willing to take him, hopefully they can give you pointers on what he should be capable of doing beforehand?

 

[RunToEarth]

Get someone who regularly hunts and rides for a living to take him out for the first time. Having a horse who is dead in the mouth running headlong into a hedge/wall/pony clubber/road is inherently dangerous. I've been there and it isn't fun, but if you are new to hunting and don't know many people you are definitely better to have someone else take him first.

 

[Clodagh]

Never try a new tack combo out hunting for the first time.
JanetGeorge is spot on in her advice. When I hunted three times a fortnight, and paid a lot of money to do so, nothing ruined everyones day quicker than having to sort out an out of control horse and rider.
Perhaps try a kineton noseband with the cheltenham gag, and a standing martingale? I am all for safety, and would rather they hurt than you did, but you need to be able to stop, from a gallop, albeit with a bit of hauling but you need to be able to stop.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Yep! And I can't think of a breed of horse for whom it's more true (Warmbloods can be 'hot', Irish Draughts can be strong and it's a potentially lethal combination.

There is nothing WRONG with putting on a slightly stronger bit for hunting but if you don't do the rest of it, you'll keep needing stronger and stronger. Your chap needs more basic schooling before you take him out hunting for the first time. He needs to have better brakes and be more responsive to voice (especially WHOA!) to the bit and to the seat. Ideally he will have been to a couple of small fun rides (if you can't control him EASILY on those then he's not ready to hunt.) Once you CAN control him on those, then ideally hound exercise (but you'll have o leave that until next year - most hunts have already started mounted hound exercise and once they get into faster exercise will not be as willing to let you come out. If he shows a miraculous improvement in the next month (which is very unlikely) you COULD try a quiet morning's cubhunting, preferably at a venue where there is very little roadwork.

I can't impress this upon you enough. You will NOT introduce ANY horse to hunting reasonably safely unless his basic schooling is right. Even a pure Irish Draught might behave like a total idiot on his first (or second) day. I assume you don't want to be badly injured or dead - and don't want everyone local who hunts to LOATHE you because of the disruption and possible accidents you have caused.

Very wise words indeed.

My ID (Embla George/Embla Daisy (Colman) was 18h. He was schooled very well and mannerly. I did not cub him until he was 7 and had taken on board plenty of education.

The first morning was ok, he had a double bridle on and a standing martingale. The next time out he was a little rude and stupid queuing. I could not consider jumping him because he was not listening well enough. The day ended with me hanging in a tree when he wiped me off.

The 3rd morning I went prepared, cherry roller american gag, flash etc. This was a horse I had from 6 months of age, broke him myself and was doing elem dressage, feather light in the hand, walk to canter with a seat bone nudge and extended trot with a mere opening of the fingers. He was a joy to ride until hounds entered his world.

Those of you who know Ragley Estate will know the hill from Bodges Clump, I went down that like a derailed train, he cleared the stream in the bottom and set sail up the hill scattering everyone and everything in his way. I was both mortified and terrified. The only reason I was not sent home was because my then husband was in hunt service. I went back to the box and wondered what to do next. My wonderfully kind and gentle horse was a demon possessed in the hunting field, yet I could take him to do dressage the next day and he would hit 70%.

I did have a few more days on him using a kineton and a market harborough but the reality was he needed a big country like Leicestershire and he needed to be a masters horse. My piddling about and not letting him run just did not suit him and the final straw came again in Ragley, when he jumped a ditch with such power he pinged me 5 foot above him and when I came down I broke my ankle whilst still on him. At least he stayed straight ! I gave up after that and kept him in the show and dressage ring where he was Mr Perfect.

 

[Bernster]

Crikey AA that makes sobering reading ! And I thought my mare was keen haha. I am taking new boy out for a sp ride this weekend, in a group of 5 who like to gallop, as the next phase in my hunt prep. I'm planning on adding a running martingale to our current kit (snaffle and flash with neckstrap), which I realise is positively light-weight compared to your trials and tribulations! Sounds like your boy was super duper in the ring though and sometimes it's best to stick with what they're good at and what doesn't scare the be-jesus out of the rider hehe.

 

[Orangehorse]

Cripes AA, if the bogs around Ragley didn't slow him down nothing would. Sobering reading.

I knew of a horse like this before, home bred,out of a wonderful hunter mare, well schooled, been out hound exercise that went bananas when taken out hunting. The rider was a small lady on a big horse. She asked other people to take it, but once was enough. Eventually and as a "do or die" she gave him to the whipper-in who took him out every day for a week and that, at last, was enough for him to get the message that hunting was work and not just an opportunity to go wild.
She was able to hunt him at last, but I don't think he was ever the nice conveyance that his dam had been!

 

[AdorableAlice]

Cripes AA, if the bogs around Ragley didn't slow him down nothing would. Sobering reading.

I knew of a horse like this before, home bred,out of a wonderful hunter mare, well schooled, been out hound exercise that went bananas when taken out hunting. The rider was a small lady on a big horse. She asked other people to take it, but once was enough. Eventually and as a "do or die" she gave him to the whipper-in who took him out every day for a week and that, at last, was enough for him to get the message that hunting was work and not just an opportunity to go wild.
She was able to hunt him at last, but I don't think he was ever the nice conveyance that his dam had been!

This so true, to be a good hunter they need to hunt regularly and properly.

 

[JDH01]

Have you thought about trying a double, also never try new tack first time out hunting.

 

[adsthelad]

I've thought about a double as I do show in one, but as I'm a first-timer I'd rather not be fiddling with two pairs of reins as we go along...
I might try him on the first day of cubbing when it should be small and slow, but if he's at all silly I think I will ask someone from my yard if she would like to take him a few times to teach him what to do. I have never used a Kineton noseband before, is it significantly stronger as a noseband than the grackle I currently have?
AA, that is really quite terrifying!
I have no plans to suddenly throw a lot of new tack on him the day we go, I think I will try and take him down to the beach a few times and see how quickly we can stop. Hopefully from next weekend I'll start hacking down, will help get him nice and fit too.
It could be that my horse sorts himself out once we're off, he's certainly done it before, but he may just find the first few times quite fun seeing as he hasn't done it in a couple of years. Also going to ask his old owner how he previously was, she may be able to give some more advice too as she knows him.

 

[adsthelad]

Ok, just done a little reading on Kineton nosebands. From what I've read, it seems like they were basically designed for my horse. Hopefully it's not a stupid question, but it looks like it doesn't go under the chin, doesn't this mean that if my horse tripped or something and ended up with the front of his nose parallel to the floor, it could slip off the front of the nose? And also the horse could open his mouth as much as he pleases?

 

[Templebar]

No the Kineton is designed to stop the yawing and snapping mouth open, so when they snap it open the noseband clouts them on the nose then releases. It shouldn't slip off the nose as it is around the bit and attached through the head piece as others are. You should get someone who knows how to use them to fit it.

When I took my 14.3hh cob hunting and she bogged off with me I changed to a Pelham and although nothing could replicate how she was hunting as at home and fun rides she would stop off a snaffle. I set her in a gallop up some stubble and then tried to use minimal aids to ask for stop. Then see how quickly I could get from gallop to halt, the reaction was so much sharper and I use it with two reins to get the full effect hunting. I teamed my bit with a grackle in the end and that does the trick. But also after starting her hunting the more we went the better she got, they must learn that it is no different work and you expect manners all the same.

If using a gag/Pelham/double then they MUST be ridden in two reins for the full effect.

 

[adsthelad]

Oh I see, I'd never heard of a Kineton until now so I'm learning! Hopefully someone I know or at my yard will know how to fit one, I'm considering buying one. Though it could also be that I'm completely overthinking this and he'll be fine, I just don't know!!
As my horse is currently ridden in a grackle everyday, is it possible that he's just accustomed (and slightly dead) to its action, so that it has less of an effect?
I might start off with the Cheltenham and a running martingale (of course testing it at home beforehand) on the first cubbing line which will be quite nice and small, then go from there. If I feel like he's pulling a bit too much, then I will rethink my tack choices. Also with it being small and at the very beginning then I don't think people will mind so much if he's a bit stupid, I may also put a green ribbon in his tail to warn people. He knows his job but sometimes loves it a bit too much, perhaps being in the middle he will be alright too as he won't exactly feel like he's being left behind. Hmm...

 

[adsthelad]

Going cubbing tomorrow, eek! Pray for me

Just wondering as I'm using the Cheltenham with just one rein, how loose should the rope part be? Worried Ive got it done up too tight

 

[Bernster]

Can't help with the bit combo as haven't used that. But wishing you luck! Let us know how you get on.

 

[skint1]

Good luck! Hope you have a fun and safe experience!