Flash/grackle/drop noseband ponderings

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teddyt

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Ive been thinking....
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If you ask alot of people why they use a flash/grakle/drop its more often than not because their horse opens its mouth, so they want to keep it closed. This could be either because they dont like the look of a horse with its mouth open or they think it gives them more control if the mouth is closed.

Well, here are my thoughts. Wouldnt it be better to consider WHY the horse opens its mouth and sort that out, rather than just trying to stop the mouth from opening? Surely if a horse is completely relaxed and happy with its bit, other tack (including the saddle) and the rider then it wouldnt open its mouth? Then the problem is solved!

I expect some people will just use one for faster work, maybe that is when the horse opens its mouth. But why does going faster mean that the mouth has to open? Could it be that the rider pulls more? Maybe because the horse physically cant slow down as quickly as the rider wants them to?

If used when schooling, could it be that the horse isnt physically capable of the work it is being asked to do, so it leans down on the bit and then opens its mouth? Maybe with time and training the horse wouldnt do this? So should the mouth be kept closed in the meantime? What does this achieve?

You dont see horses in the field trotting along with their mouths open. It is an example of another man made problem that people then treat the outward sign, without necesarily looking at the cause.

What does everyone else think? Discuss!
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Hmm interesting point! I use a flash on a cavesson noseband, because pony opens mouth when schooling and jumping. He seems to use it as a way of resisting if he doesn't want to go in an outline (agreed that he doesn't have the right muscle for it atm and also saddle not fitting great so this could be a factor). Also he loves his jumping so quite happy to charge about, but I did notice a difference when I rode without it last weekend because it was really hard to turn because he was opening his mouth.

In my case, pony has learnt to use opening his mouth as getting out of something or resisting against something he doesn't want to do. However, I do have a feeling that he may stop doing this if:

We bought a new saddle (working on it!)
The habit was carefully schooled out of him
My riding was a lot better

But don't think all these things are going to happen as it's a pretty established habit, so just seems easier to pop a flash on him
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I think if you find the perfect bit, there is no need to strap their mouths shut.

However I haven't quite worked out why the professionals are rarely seen in cavessons, I'm wondering whether its because bridles generally come with a flash and grackle, so they use them as the norm.
 
If you look at older (70s/80s) books or older photos in magzines nearly every horse is in a cavesson and either a snaffle, pelham or double bridle. I think youre right cotswold, cavessons are hard to buy now.

Bramble, thats sort of my point. It is easier to just put a flash on but to me that is disregarding that the horse is uncomfortable and physically disadvantaged, which is more costly and time consuming to rectify but should really be the only choice imo. Opening the mouth may have become a habit because the horse has repeatedly been put in a situation in which it responds by opening its mouth. So if you repeatedly put the horse in a better situation and remove discomfort surely it can become a habit to keep the mouth closed?
 
I personally use a grackle on my jumping bridle because I use a full cheek snaffle and found that the sides of the bit were pressing on the cavesson. First tried the bit with no noseband and was much better so decided to combine with a loose fititng grackle as the next best thing
 
Safety.
Simple as.

My horse has been known to take off randomly - usually when the horses in the field near the arena decide to play, at which point he tanks off straight towards either the 4ft fence, or the 4'6x3' hedge. Neither of which I really want to jump at this point O.o
I don't think he bolts because he's being particularly naughty, or trying to do anything to me as a rider, I think he's just young and rather full of himself and these odd instances happen. However, as I don't usually school in a martingale (as we tend to keep the same tack for when we compete also - and obviously no martingale for dressage!) and he tends to bring his head up and open his mouth when he runs off, it's just a little bit of a help to me as the poor rider being stuck on board!
It gives me a little more confidence anyway
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And he's not unhappy. So why not?
 
I agree teddyt...

One of mine is in a cavesson even though she sometimes gets 'open mouth' comments on dressage sheets. I am trying to address this issue by schooling though, and do feel that she goes less well in a flash or grackle.

Our other mare has always been ridden in a grackle, as she uses opening her mouth and crossing her jaw as an evasion to get out of working properly, and as a 16.2 IDx she is too big to argue with.

Fiona
 
One of mine was ridden in a flash when I got him so I continued using one. He does open his mouth and is quite strong, although I trust him completely. However, he absolutely HATES the strap round his jaw, fidgeting badly when you try to do it up (his teeth are fine), so I tried him without it completely. He is so much happier and it has made no difference to the way he is when ridden, so I now ride him in a cavesson. He may have his mouth open in some of the jumping pics but at least I know he's a lot happier.
 
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However I haven't quite worked out why the professionals are rarely seen in cavessons, I'm wondering whether its because bridles generally come with a flash and grackle, so they use them as the norm.

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prob cos the pro's horses are hotter, sharper, fed up to the eyeballs to compete at top level consistently and have to have that little bit of extra spark! and to compensate, u need the extra help!
and also i guess, the rider has to have 100% control at all times, or the prizemoney goes elsewhere!
get your point tho,i hate strapping mouths shut!
 
I ride my 17.2 ISH in a grackle and pelham.

He hates jointed bits and he hates the cavesson across his nose, where it presses against his teeth (and therefore also hates a flash) He has thin skin and bony teeth.

If you put a jointed bit in, he opens his mouth and runs off. I put him in a french link when I first got him - which was even worse - the more joints, the worse he is. He likes his mullen mouth pelham!

There's no way I'm riding him without a noseband - he'd just open his mouth and ignore me, so grackle it is!
 
I think schooling is the way to go, at least most of the time, there are exceptions to every rule. I'm sick of having this row with a guy i know, he's all for gadgets and what not, and gives me grief for not having a drop, not wearing a martingale etc.. I think that if you dont need it, why put it on. His arguement was "How many horses have you seen hunting or in competition without them?". I reckon if you have the work done at home, then you shouldn't have to, and i hunt my mare in a snaffle bridle, cavesson noseband and no martingale and we get on fine. I'm not a jockey, too tall and too heavy but my ex-jockey friend showed me how to bridge the reins out hunting, and to teach them to behave when galloping in company, without the gadgets, and so far so good.
 
I think some of what you've been brought up with using also has an effect. I like to think i've been lucky enough to see a huge range of equipmenet from the "traditional" to the more modern, so have been able to form an idea seeing all of them.
But know quite a few who use stuff "cos they always have"
therefore - is that wrong?Right?uneducated?ignorant?
I honestly wouldn't like to say
 
in an ideal world schooling would solve all issues and we could all ride in a snaffle, cavesson, no martingale etc etc.

however, in the real world this doesn't really wash.

for example, my youngsters who i have broken and schooled myself DO go all in the above tack as they have been trained that way from day one.

however, my older horse i didn't buy until 9 (now 16).
he is very established in his way of going, very enthusiastic about jumping and fun stuff- so he is in a Dr.Bristol, grakle and martingale to jump.

at home and xc schooling i can jump him in a cavesson, french link and no martingale- i tried it at an event and had a cricket score in the sj and absolutely no control on the xc!!

how do you school a horse like this when he is only strong at competitions?
it is very expensive to waste over £100 on each event to try and educate him when he isn't being naughty just enthusiastic.

i went to a clinic with Stephen Hadley the other week and he and the other girls in the session all remarked on how well behaved and adjustable Pilfer is.
if i want to half halt, i sit back a fraction, hold for a stride and he comes back immediately- why would i change his tack when he is happy in it and jumps beautifully?
he still has his ears pricked and travels to the fence well so i really don't think his tack is adversely affecting him.

and as a side point, i'm afraid Pilfer is the exception to your rule- if he is having a hooly around his field he gets his head ridiculously high, ear twitches, lips draw up and you can hear his teeth clashing with every stride!
 
The pros often use grackles and flashes as they help with submission. I have also heard it argued that a flash/drop or grackle can reduce the strength of the contact needed as it eliminates any resistance to the bit (not sure Ive explained that well, but it makes sense to me!).

There are always going to be horses that open their mouth when a solid object is put in their mouths and any pressure put on it, no matter how anatomical etc the bit is. A correctly fitted flash/grackle/drop can encourage the horse to accept the bit and so work in a softer manner.
 
I think you could be opening a can of worms here!!
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In an ideal world we'd all be riding our horses in plain cavessons and snaffles however we don't live in an ideal world. A lot of the time yes, I do think it's a schooling issue with either horse or rider. Many people won't accept that their riding could be at fault so when the horse opens its mouth, instead of asking what they are doing to cause that (ie, pulling on its mouth when jumping, socking it in the gob over a fence, all hand and no leg...), they simply strap its mouth shut to prevent the horse from opening its mouth in the first place. From what I've seen this just leads to more behavioural problems in a lot of cases as you then get horses who toss their heads around, snatch the reins and bugger off, etc. I do think though that in some cases I'd rather see someone jump in a grackle or flash and have better control than be hauling on the horse's mouth, whatever bit they have in.

We were discussing this at the yard the other day and we all said that we admire William FP as he seems to ride all of his horses in a cavesson and snaffle. Unfortunately though, none of us can ride like WFP, much as we might wish we could, so you have to comprimise to make life a bit easier.

IME as my horse's schooling improves, and as my riding and ability to hold him together (I'm 5ft4, he's 17hh IDx!), I'm finding that I can move back towards more simple tack. He came to me in a cavesson with flash and with a french link in his mouth. I struggled with him jumping because he's so big and can be strong, so for a while jumped him in a Dr Bristol with a martingale. Now I'm more able to ride him, he's back in the FL. I do jump him in a grackle for the moment because I find I get better results than with a flash and TBH, on a good day when he's enjoying jumping, he would be too strong for me in a plain cavesson. We do all of our flatwork in a cavesson though and I can take him XC and on fun rides in his FL now (with the grackle). I've played around with enough bits and nosebands on this horse now that I know what suits him and me, and what he's happy with. He won't tolerate a strong bit so I had to find a comprimise on noseband - he actually hates the flash and throws his head around. When I'm feeling brave, I will try him without the martingale too... What I do object to is people like someone I know who rides all of her horses in grackles with martingales and breastplates "because they look like proper horses". Where's the point in that?!

I know of one person who refuses to have lessons or school on the flat - she might occasionally venture into the arena for a bit of flatwork which consists of just trotting and cantering around on the same 20m circle for 30 mins. She only jumps. The horse is nutty at the best of times, goes into everything flat out, takes off after every jump, head in the air, head on the floor, throws itself all over the place. The rider (and her SJ instructor)'s solution? Put a different noseband on (grackle, flash, kineton...), put a stronger bit in, tighten the martingale. She asked me yesterday what I would do if it was my horse and when I said lots and lots of flatwork, poles and in hand work to get the horse working correctly, she simply said that was boring so she'd just carry on as she was... so yes, in a roundabout way I'm agreeing with you that people should consider why the horse opens its mouth but some just won't, they would prefer to whack a stronger bit in or a different noseband...

Does that all make sense?!
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it depends hugely on the horse, the training, the rider's hands, etc etc. some horses are smart and find ways to evade, so they need more correction etc.
my homebred who got to 2* went xc in a snaffle (sometimes a rubber one), cavesson, no martingale. tbh i could have taken her xc in a headcollar, because she was that easy. if only they were all like that!
i don't think a drop is always there to close the mouth though, fitted correctly (high enough, and never tightly), with a full-cheek or fulmer, it just keeps the bit very still in the horse's mouth so that communication from the rider's hands is very precise. this combo is what they ride all the Spanish Riding School of Vienna horses in before advancing to a double bridle. i very much doubt they're using the drop to force the horses' mouths shut...
 
I dont object to some of the uses that people have stated here, simply because it appears that other avenues have been explored and training is considered. Above all people have stated that the horse is happy. Chesnut cob for example has worked at finding a solution, which i admire very much. Rather than just reaching for a stronger bit/noseband and saying 'tough' to the horse.

But if i had a pound for every time someone said they tightened up their noseband i would be very rich!

greygates- you have a point about the pros. Short cuts help them get the prize money quicker in a very expensive sport. If a flash, etc gets a quicker result then thats what they will use. I feel that its a shame for the horse and dont agree but i can see why its done.

I categorise the use of martingales a bit differently because if they are correctly fitted they dont affect the horse all of the time, like a flash noseband.

Kerilli- good point about the spanish riding school but they are an exception and very few people who ride have their undertanding of training and anatomy. Nor their ridng ability!For example, the dutch gag was said to originate from classical high school training, designed to be ridden with 2 reins for more precise communication and used in a pressure/release method. Now how many people use the dutch gag with 2 reins? How many people even understand its action and what its supposed to be used for and how?

Peacelily mentioned ignorance. Which is what the use of flashes etc is, in many, many cases. Thats my point of view anyway, people use them (and stronger bits) because they dont know any different. This is what i object to if the horse is uncomfortable because of it.

I am not anti flashes, etc if, like in many cases mentioned here, the horse is comfortable and there is an educated process used in the decision to use them.
 
I think i didn't come across as i wanted to. While i do believe in schooling, and i do reckon that if you have the work done, technically it should all work out just perfectly, but i'm not a fool, and i know that it doesn't always work out this way. I have been very fortunate in the last few years, that it has for me but i could be eating my words yet. I'm starting to break my 3 year old after xmas.
I had a horse ten years ago that was a perfect gentleman to do anything with, except hunting. He was schooled to perfection, and technically, should have been an angel, but when he saw hounds, he was gone. Fell off him 11 times in 2 hours out hunting, so i do understand that sometimes schooling doesn't work. What i was trying to say, was school first, then resort to gadgets. They do serve a purpose but what i dont agree with is using them because everyone else does. Sorry if i was misleading before, didn't mean to be, just really didn't get my point across very well.
 
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i don't think a drop is always there to close the mouth though, fitted correctly (high enough, and never tightly), with a full-cheek or fulmer, it just keeps the bit very still in the horse's mouth so that communication from the rider's hands is very precise. this combo is what they ride all the Spanish Riding School of Vienna horses in before advancing to a double bridle. i very much doubt they're using the drop to force the horses' mouths shut...

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I'm not sure if that was in direct reply to me but I never said a drop would be used to force the horse's mouth shut. I like a drop noseband because they encourage rather than force. Much kinder, IMHO, than a flash cranked up so tightly that it rubs. Wish I could ride like the SRS though, or even 1/100th as good as they do!!

I'm getting to a point with my boy now where I can take him XC in a snaffle though my steering is a bit off sometimes to am debating trying a fulmer or full cheek to see if that helps...
 
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I had a horse ten years ago that was a perfect gentleman to do anything with, except hunting. He was schooled to perfection, and technically, should have been an angel, but when he saw hounds, he was gone. Fell off him 11 times in 2 hours out hunting, so i do understand that sometimes schooling doesn't work. What i was trying to say, was school first, then resort to gadgets. They do serve a purpose but what i dont agree with is using them because everyone else does. Sorry if i was misleading before, didn't mean to be, just really didn't get my point across very well.

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I reckon even the most well schooled of horses can be forgiven for getting worked up when they see hounds!
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Mine goes in a french link and cavesson 95% of the time but I have to hunt in a pelham with grackle.. tried in a Dr Bristol and drop noseband one and nearly ended up in the next county
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You're right that things don't always work out as they're supposed to. I get frustrated sometimes with things like the BHS books because they just assume every horse is a paragon of virtue and never seem to explain what you might do when things go wrong. The reality is that horses aren't machines and they do things that the text books don't tell you they might!
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chestnut cob, that wasn't a direct reply to you, it was just general musing! i totally agree that a drop is kinder than a flash. (unless done up like a vice obviously!)

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LOL, I'd just edited my OP to say exactly the same!

My biggest bugbear is crank nosebands. Why would you want to literally crank your horses mouth shut like that?! Surely it prevents the horse from having mouthing the bit at all?
 
Although i'd rather see a contented horse in a snaffle and cavasson, in an ideal world.... I would rather see a flash or grackle fitted to a responsive horse than those who insist on the cavasson even though the horse evades,yawps his mouth open and generally spends so much time doing it he forgets to listen to the rider.
If the horse is relaxed,controllable and attentive I don't give a toot what they are in! But I do agree that fashion leads grackles and the flash to be used more often than is perhaps necessary.
As I was taught many years ago, a snugly fitted cavasson on *most* horses should contain the mouthing enough to control but allow natural contact. My big hate is loose cavassons with tight flashes, therefore dragging the cavasson down so low it interferes with the breathing. Now that makes me growl every time!!
Martingales are a different matter. Correctly fitted they are a boon, if only for the neckstrap. Any item that gives me an option to balance myself against the unexpected is good in my book. Far better than hauling at the reins or falling off!
 
I use a drop noseband with a Fulmer snaffle on all my young horses as they then learn that they can't open their mouths right from the start. Once they have learnt to work long and low I change them to a normal eggbutt snaffle with a plain cavesson noseband. I've only had one horse I've had to continue with the Fulmer and drop a TB off the track with an attitude. Put him in any other bit and he'd stick his tongue over.

I think there are many riders who use a flash because that has been the trend for a few decades. Flashes were all the rage, then the crank now grackles are making a comeback.

Here in New Zealand we have a competition called Show Hunter - (US Hunter Jumper) - horse jumps a course of rustic fences and is judged totally on jumping stride and quality of the jump - Only a cavesson noseband is permitted and the number of riders who are finding that their horse actually goes better with out the flash strap is amazing. I personally took flash straps off two horses that were confirmed head flickers and they stopped immediately.
 
Weeell, yes, schooling and correct bitting should solve the mouth open problem, but you can't train for all situations and I think the flash is used to cover the 'just in cases'. Antifaz, for instance, jumps quietly and sanely at home and could easily go in a cavesson. At shows it's a different matter and sometimes he gets very jumpy (no pun intended) and strong. This is when I needed the flash. Since I started riding him in the myler combination, he's not opened his mouth at all, which I'm thrilled about.
 
I prefer loose cavason nosebands, and I have had several plain hunter style nosebands made up to match bridles in the past.

My girl is one that has people itching to strap her mouth shut regularly, as she is mouthy. The contact you feel is consistent, supple and even, she just looks like shes evading if you read her wrongly. I did have an instructor (thank god I saw the light and changed) who strapped her mouth up so tightly, the nose bands acctually rubber her raw under her jaw.

Here are two pics of the same day. Note the swinging tail and soft contact - not tight!

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As you can see though, she does wear a pelham for jumping, but a hanging cheek on the flat.

If the feel you get is good, I don't mind if they look mouthy.
 
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