Flash on a gag

[countrybumpkin85]

Hi everyone,
While my mare is in season and being an extreme handful I was told that putting the flash strap THROUGH the gag ring made it more efficient.
She rides beautifully in her gag so don't want to change it, as I've got the felxability of where to attach my reins etc. depending on what activity we're doing.
Has anyone got a picture of how a flash band would go through the rings, and which ring!? Normal tightness? I've never seen it done before but thought I'd try it as I got off yesterday before we had an accident and decided I'd have to resort to lunging only this week (she has to work to get her muscle back).

 

[Patterdale]

Please don't!

This is a very bad idea, and will
be extremely uncomfortable for your mare, not to mention totally unnecessary.

 

[countrybumpkin85]

This is partly why I asked. I wouldn't know how to do it properly so wasn't prepared to unless I had some sound advice on it.
I might just put her flash back on as normal and see how she goes. I've been trying to "de faff" her with schooling, but the martingal will be back on too for jumping after yesterday.

 

[*hic*]

I assume what they mean is to use the flash strap completely removed from the nose band and doubled through the cheek rings as a curbstrap. Some horses get on with it, some horses don't.

There are various threads on here about the whys and wherefores, this is an example:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=128673

 

[tallyho!]

Agree with patterdale.

Please think about your schooling of her and how you can improve her way of going without resorting to more leather and metal... Look at Equilibrium Ireland's thread...

 

[Norfolk Pie]

I really can't believe someone meant for the flash to be fitted as a flash, incorporating the gag rings? I wonder if they meant for it to loop through the very top rings (where the cheek pieces attach) as a kind of high curb strap. There was a phase for doing this at one stage? I think the theory was it stabilises the bit, and removes that awful twisting action they have. I didn't like it, so I'm not recommending it, but then I don't like gags, so perhaps there is a benefit to it?

 

[countrybumpkin85]

They did say about the bit moving too much sometimes. I've been through countless bits with her trying to find one to suit and at one point had 2 bridles depending on what we were doing. When I put the gag on, a happy mouth version, she loved it. We enjoyed hacking out, there was no battle of wills and we both relaxed. Have to say that, I hadn't used one before, but I do love it.
USUALLY we can school with it on the snaffle ring, then hack one down, and hunt with pelham roundsing on the bottom and snaffle rings (otherwise I'd be past the master!) we have our mutural respect back, I give her light hands and she stops.slows when asked. However I have heard of some horses getting very upset with them and running backwards. Like most things, guess its down to the individual horse!

Does stabalising it with a leather strap round the back hurt/cause distress? Or does it purely stablise the bit in their mouths? Again, things like curb chains I've not used before and am rusty of their actual purpose.

Would maybe just putting her flash back on help? She's resorted back to having her mouth open a lot, which I'd schooled out of her. Was so over the moon that I'd de leathered her compared to when she 1st came.
Martingale, breast plate, flash......were all gone. (Granted BP was just to help while her muscle built up, not needed when she's in work)

 

[bellatrix]

Yeah I think they will have meant that you use a flash strap as a curb strap. So putting the strap like this: http://www.trackright.co.uk/acatalog/info_1_0_424.html
I think it is meant to maximise the effectiveness of the gag??

 

[Norfolk Pie]

I think if you're using it I'd use the leather "curb" idea, because I don't like how much they move - sorry, reading my post back I worded it badly - if the gag is the right bit, I think a stable gag is better than a mobile one, its just never been my choice, if that makes sense? It shouldn't cause pain - I'd prob use a sheepskin round the leather strap, to avoid rubbing?

If I'm being totally honest though, a horse opening it's mouth is, in my experience, doing it because something is "amiss" - esp when just schooling, if out hunting I can understand the need for a preventative measure.

If a horse is uncomfortable enough in its mouth to want to evade the bit, I think it's a bit harsh to force it's mouth closed. But then I'm a bit of a perfectionist

 

[*hic*]

Changing the bit is not the first thing to look at IMHO.

You don't say what the problem is apart from you "got off before we had an accident"

 

[RunToEarth]

I was always lead to believe that bubble bits were designed to be ridden off of two reins with a leather curb.

 

[countrybumpkin85]

I think if you're using it I'd use the leather "curb" idea, because I don't like how much they move - sorry, reading my post back I worded it badly - if the gag is the right bit, I think a stable gag is better than a mobile one, its just never been my choice, if that makes sense? It shouldn't cause pain - I'd prob use a sheepskin round the leather strap, to avoid rubbing?

If I'm being totally honest though, a horse opening it's mouth is, in my experience, doing it because something is "amiss" - esp when just schooling, if out hunting I can understand the need for a preventative measure.

If a horse is uncomfortable enough in its mouth to want to evade the bit, I think it's a bit harsh to force it's mouth closed. But then I'm a bit of a perfectionist

She only opens it out hacking/hunting. In the school she's usually lovely to work with and she's come a long way. Yesterday I think the issue in the school was I took her for half a hack as more of a warm up/get canter out of system hack, before going in the school to pop a few small jumps (1st time since a bad jumping accident). She was "spirited" on the hack, but put that down to being in season, and couldn't hold her up too much as it wound her up more. Then when we got home and I turned her into the schoo, rather than stables (which is usually followed by food!) she started protesting and wouldn't do anything she was asked.
she's like jekle and hyde when she's in season! Again..this was a reason for the gag, I can step up and down a gear, and its been very successful with her to date.
This was a horse that tripped round the school in walk and now does poles in 3 paces, bends, spirals and surpentines beautifully.

 

[Goldenstar]

I was always lead to believe that bubble bits were designed to be ridden off of two reins with a leather curb.

IMU that Nelson Pessoa developed the bubble gag or the Pessoa as it was always called when I first came across them .
At that stage ( I was working with someone who worked closely with NP ) they where only ever used with one rien .
They are not a bit I like in all but the best hands they are very problematic particularily on hot senestive horses.

 

[countrybumpkin85]

Changing the bit is not the first thing to look at IMHO.

You don't say what the problem is apart from you "got off before we had an accident"

Basically I was asking her to do a bit of school work and pop a couple fo jumps after a short hack (the hack being to get her focused as often schooling her when she's fresh resorts in her just not focusing and we don't get very far).

She wouldn't trot, just canter or a fast and messy walk. I took her over poles to make her focus but she walked/trotted them beautifully then as soon as she was free of them off we went. The refused to go past the gate out (I wont "boot or whip" my horses to move") so took her for some cirlces work and obviously decided she wasn't in the mind set to jump, she wanted her feed and buddies in the stable block (late gelded gelding!!)
Opening the gate she barged into it, kept trying to open the rider latch herself, so I worried she'd catch her reins/bit in it and freak. I opened the gate and she went to rush through before there was enough space. So I dismounted and walked her down, still jogging next to me and spinning round me. I was wondering if maybe she got into the oats store!!!!

 

[countrybumpkin85]

IMU that Nelson Pessoa developed the bubble gag or the Pessoa as it was always called when I first came across them .
At that stage ( I was working with someone who worked closely with NP ) they where only ever used with one rien .
They are not a bit I like in all but the best hands they are very problematic particularily on hot senestive horses.

I was told I could use single, double or a pelham rounding on them. But I've never used double reins so didn't want to start. It was only put on the list to try as my instructor was confident I had light enough hands. We'd been through a few, and putting her in the gag was like waving a magic wand. Not sure why, don't know what it is about it she likes....just works. So not in a rush to swap again!

 

[shannonandtay]

She only opens it out hacking/hunting. In the school she's usually lovely to work with and she's come a long way. Yesterday I think the issue in the school was I took her for half a hack as more of a warm up/get canter out of system hack, before going in the school to pop a few small jumps (1st time since a bad jumping accident). She was "spirited" on the hack, but put that down to being in season, and couldn't hold her up too much as it wound her up more. Then when we got home and I turned her into the schoo, rather than stables (which is usually followed by food!) she started protesting and wouldn't do anything she was asked.
she's like jekle and hyde when she's in season! Again..this was a reason for the gag, I can step up and down a gear, and its been very successful with her to date.
This was a horse that tripped round the school in walk and now does poles in 3 paces, bends, spirals and surpentines beautifully.

It might just be a simple case of she thinks she's done her work out on the hack and took exception to being asked to jump in the school, if she is usually fine in what you have her in then I'd maybe look at it as a one off. My usually quiet gelding did the same thing after a short hack once, when we got him in the school to pop a jump it was broncing time.

 

[countrybumpkin85]

It might just be a simple case of she thinks she's done her work out on the hack and took exception to being asked to jump in the school, if she is usually fine in what you have her in then I'd maybe look at it as a one off. My usually quiet gelding did the same thing after a short hack once, when we got him in the school to pop a jump it was broncing time.

Thats what I'm hoping, we didn't even get to putting jumps up as I didn't feel safe doing it as she was. I was just keeping her warmed up while I waited for my husband to walk up and do the lifting

My son has a little gelding, and I've just got a young gelding (as my mare will be retiring slowly in the coming couple of years). They're far more laid back. I say retire her.....the way she is at the moment I can't see her chilling in the field for a while. She loves to work and will get like this if she's not been out for a while. God forbit I didn't ride for a week and paid for it when I did. HAHA

 

[countrybumpkin85]

We didn't get as far as broncing time....she's never (touch wood) done that to me, but she did do a few bounce rears at the gate while I was trying to open it. Thats more than enough for me, I dont get these people that think its fun.

 

[shannonandtay]

We didn't get as far as broncing time....she's never (touch wood) done that to me, but she did do a few bounce rears at the gate while I was trying to open it. Thats more than enough for me, I dont get these people that think its fun.

Definitely not my idea of fun either! Perhaps a combination of things what with her being in season as well, hopefully she will be back to normal soon, I think sometimes they like to keep us on our toes

 

[countrybumpkin85]

Definitely not my idea of fun either! Perhaps a combination of things what with her being in season as well, hopefully she will be back to normal soon, I think sometimes they like to keep us on our toes

I might just try popping her flash back on as normal (that must stablalise the bit a bit as well surely?) and her martingale. If she settles again in a week or so then I can always remove them again.

 

[*hic*]

Basically I was asking her to do a bit of school work and pop a couple fo jumps after a short hack (the hack being to get her focused as often schooling her when she's fresh resorts in her just not focusing and we don't get very far).

She wouldn't trot, just canter or a fast and messy walk. I took her over poles to make her focus but she walked/trotted them beautifully then as soon as she was free of them off we went. The refused to go past the gate out (I wont "boot or whip" my horses to move") so took her for some cirlces work and obviously decided she wasn't in the mind set to jump, she wanted her feed and buddies in the stable block (late gelded gelding!!)
Opening the gate she barged into it, kept trying to open the rider latch herself, so I worried she'd catch her reins/bit in it and freak. I opened the gate and she went to rush through before there was enough space. So I dismounted and walked her down, still jogging next to me and spinning round me. I was wondering if maybe she got into the oats store!!!!

OK so what has happened is that she's in season and that is coupled with the spring grass coming through plus there may or may not be a lack of discipline (you say you won't boot or whip your horses to move, which is fine except when you have a hormonal creature who believes it can ignore you).

If I were in your shoes I'd review her feeding now the grass is coming through and re-consider what I do to say "No I mean it, you do what I want, not what you think you will do".

Changing the bit is not going to resolve the issues you outlined above.

 

[LollyDolly]

I don't think that you should be working your poor mare at all, given that she looks like this:

Original thread for all concerned:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=608014

 

[ester]

I guess its a moot point now but it isn't a bad idea or uncomfortable for the horse, many would say it is much better/more correct than using a gag without a curb strap as it prevents the application of excessive poll pressure by limiting the amount of rotation.