Flatwork for jumping?

[TarrSteps]

I'm having one of my "stranger in a strange land" moments and have had a sudden revelation about a cultural disconnect (still with me?) I've wondered about but not been able to put my finger on.

When people talk about "flatwork (or hacking/fitness) for jumping" do they mean work to establish a better canter in order to get to the jump most effectively, or do they mean work that actually improves the quality of the horse's jump? Or both? Or neither?

Do you think *all* flatwork improves jumping or are there specific things you do with jumping in mind that might be extra or even contradictory to "dressage" work past the basic level? Do you work horses in for jumping differently than for dressage, both at home and at competitions? If so, why?

 

[becca1305]

I think improving all flatwork should help improve the jump as greater control/ accuracy on the flat help improves the jump through the same principles.

I find working on specific things in flatwork significantly help with jumping though. We start my jump lessons off with a fair amount of flat usually and work on things like riding a square in canter which really helps with the turns to jumps, and also work on making sure I have a 'jumping' canter.

The canter is always important of course but on one of mine (little mare) its more just rhythm and tempo (once worked in and making sure shes moving off my leg and flexing), the other (big mare) get the best out of if I get 'that canter' where shes balanced, pushing off her hocks and soft through the neck and ribs, at the correct tempo and rhythm, then it feels like we could jump anything! But shes a lot longer and bigger than little mare and scopier and needs more putting together. We have my no means got 'that canter' anywhere near consistently yet, and still go popping round 1m/1.05m courses, but its just such a fab feel when the canter comes together and I ride round the course with a big grin on my face since having that improved canter just makes the round flow so much better and feel effortless.

I'm not sure if flatwork to improve jump means different things to different people though as well as cultural differences, but thats the way I see it .

 

[JillA]

I was always taught a course of jumps was a flatwork course punctuated by jumps. You can influence the flat work part, the jump is entirely up to the horse, there is nothing you can do to improve it except present him as well as possible. You need a horse who is responsive and balanced and can lengthen and shorten his stride as you need, supple enough to turn quickly without losing balance, works off engaged quarters and doesn't go on his forehand - not much different from the basics for a dressage horse really. The only main difference is a great deal of a jumpers work is at canter so working is at canter to get it balanced and rhythmical. Bit of a hobby horse with me I'm afraid, jumping course after course or jump after jump doesn't make much difference - good quality flatwork schooling does.

 

[siennamum]

flatwork is a very different thing with my jumping trainer. He works on opening up the horses shoulders, getting some length into the stride, getting power, controlling the shoulder and developing the horses shape into, over and away from the fence. All stuff which is useful whatever the discipline. We don't really work on relaxation or other stuff which I'd work on with a dressage trainer, a very different approach.

 

[crabbymare]

Jumping flatwork is different to what you would be doing for dressage in that you need to be able to adjust the stride and are giving more attention to the canter so that you develop the jumping muscles plus obviously for jumping the energy needs to be directed into getting the horse off the ground and well into the air which is certainly not needed for dressage :biggrin3: for lower levels there is not so much difference but as the fences get higher then the jumping type flatwork starts to be more important.

 

[TarrSteps]

Thanks for your thoughts, folks.

The more I read, the more I think there is a disconnect though. In addition to the points above I was thinking more along the lines of specific work to improve HOW the horse actually jumps, not just how it gets to the jump.

This does explain why I talked to someone about the subject recently and she looked at me in that humouring way you look at small children when they talk nonsense!

 

[oldvic]

Jumping flatwork is different to what you would be doing for dressage in that you need to be able to adjust the stride and are giving more attention to the canter so that you develop the jumping muscles plus obviously for jumping the energy needs to be directed into getting the horse off the ground and well into the air which is certainly not needed for dressage :biggrin3: for lower levels there is not so much difference but as the fences get higher then the jumping type flatwork starts to be more important.

Adjustment of stride and developing the paces to be more off the ground is certainly required for dressage. It comes with improving the engagement of the hind legs, suppleness and energy, all requirements for improving the jump as well. There are some areas where the 2 disciplines vary a little but also each discipline has it's own differences depending on who you talk to.

 

[Mince Pie]

Thanks for your thoughts, folks.

The more I read, the more I think there is a disconnect though. In addition to the points above I was thinking more along the lines of specific work to improve HOW the horse actually jumps, not just how it gets to the jump.

This does explain why I talked to someone about the subject recently and she looked at me in that humouring way you look at small children when they talk nonsense!

I would have thought that getting the horse lighter on the forehand and lighter through the shoulders would enable the horse to be snappier in front when it comes to fences?

 

[1t34]

There are some things we use that might differ slightly from pure dressage training. Although I don't do much dressage so may be wrong. Probably incorporate more polework exercises, also when riding corners probably ask for more power in and out. I am probably less worried about slight inconsistencies in the contact (although not major ones)and maybe use flexion and counter flexion more often. Do use transitions within the pace ( on and back) which I would imagine is common to both. The most similar thing I think is having the horse truly between hand and leg, being active, listening and ready to do what I ask, although I do ask the horse maybe to think a little more for himself and don't worry too much about anticipation.

 

[Luci07]

Quite different. I have had entire lessons just on this and we had another focus. There is inevitably cross over but I do different exercises and have a different desired outcome.

 

[TarrSteps]

I would have thought that getting the horse lighter on the forehand and lighter through the shoulders would enable the horse to be snappier in front when it comes to fences?

This is closer to my original point. My original ah ha moment came when I was reading an article by an American trainer that included a reference to work he would do on the flat to address a weakness in a particular horse's jumping style. I just realised I hadn't heard much of that talk for awhile.

 

[TableDancer]

This is closer to my original point. My original ah ha moment came when I was reading an article by an American trainer that included a reference to work he would do on the flat to address a weakness in a particular horse's jumping style. I just realised I hadn't heard much of that talk for awhile.

But really, what you can do on the flat to improve a horse's jump surely comes down to a few basics: you can work on straightness as no horse will jump at his most powerfully if he isn't square over his legs, you can improve softness because if there is tightness somewhere in the topline he won't be able to use himself properly in the phases of the jump, and you can improve engagement to lighten the forehand, condition the muscles of the backend and therefore improve the power.

All three of these are things you would be working on in dressage shcooling too. I think possibly it is true that I prioritise somewhat differently when schooling/training for jumping as opposed to schooling/training for dressage, but I don't see a huge amount of difference. Recently I have found myself doing more and more canter work with clients before starting to jump in a lesson, this is to work on the three things mentioned above but also to help get the horse on the aids, listening and between hand and leg as they rarely start the lesson this way
So I gues I'm saying a lot of this is to improve the way they GET to a fence rather than the jump per se, although I would argue the two are inextricably linked...

 

[oldvic]

If you think of dressage as a form of gymnastics to improve the suppleness, balance, strength and athletic ability of the horse then why should there be a difference? All these things help a horse to make a better jump. Pure jumping trainers may put more emphasis on different areas like the paces don't need to be developed with such expression and the combination of leg, seat and rein might have a different ratio but the idea will be the same.

 

[meardsall_millie]

I agree with TD and ov (well who would argue with those two?!). The basic training is pretty much the same, what's different for me is the way I warm up for each thing. When jumping, after my usual long and low, I'm looking for a different frame and for the horse to be more 'punchy' and even more off the leg, etc.

 

[Goldenstar]

When I do flat work for jumping I mean flat work in my jumping saddle to make me as effective as possible in jumping position .

 

[siennamum]

My jumping trainer does work on the stride pattern into the fence, so that it becomes a bit 2nd nature to take off correctly, he also works on the horses shape in the air, but both are done with fences.