Flatwork for jumping

[mat]

Just looking at the position v effectiveness post, and it got me thinking about some show jumpers.. (someone mentioned Geoff Billington's position)

My question for you all is.. how important is it for Show jumping horses to do flatwork.

What would you expect them to do on the flat and what sort of outline would you expect a SJ horse to go in during schooling?

What sort of level can a rider produce a SJ horse to without good consistent and correct flat work?

Just interested to hear your views/opinions, I will give mine later!

 

[Nickijem]

Flatwork is essential to get the horse listening and fit for working from behind. To get a good clear round the horse should be able to shorten and lengthen its strides when told to. This comes from lots of groundwork. HOWEVER - i also believe that you don't have to wait for the flatwork to be perfect before attempting some jumping!!

 

[jumpthemoon]

I think a horse needs to be well schooled on the flat before you even show it a fence - let alone ride a course. If the horse isn't balanced and listening to your aids, going off your leg etc how can it be expected to jump a course of showjumps? I want to jump my horse BSJA but I am prepared to spend 6 months if I have to getting his flatwork right before I start jumping him. Flatwork is the foundation to EVERYTHING!!!!

 

[the watcher]

I totally agree that good flatwork is the key to successful jumping, anything less will lead to poor technique and possibly injury.

 

[lifeslemons]

Well... isn't it true that showjumpers can do great walk - canter transitions, but can't trot?!

but as already mentioned, flatwork is the absolute foundation

I would have said that the most important abilities of a showjumper are related to flatwork - eg half halting or extending the stride in distances etc etc, and straightness too. I would say that the quality of a showjumping canter, eg impulsion and balance, is more important than the actual outline... but a decent outline with the hocks underneath is crucial to get that engagement and power.

Without meaning to change the subject of your post, isnt the flatwork just as important for xc? Lorna Clarke used to touch on this a lot when commentating for the BBC, highlighting fly changes and extension at gallop away from a fence. Only this week Karen O'Conner was saying in H+H how flatwork had helped stop 'Teddy' running out because he was so much straighter and off the aids. Also, balance on tight turns in wet weather (applies to SJ too - eg Hickstead this year!!

 

[pixiebee]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a horse needs to be well schooled on the flat before you even show it a fence - let alone ride a course. If the horse isn't balanced and listening to your aids, going off your leg etc how can it be expected to jump a course of showjumps? I want to jump my horse BSJA but I am prepared to spend 6 months if I have to getting his flatwork right before I start jumping him. Flatwork is the foundation to EVERYTHING!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

dito!!!!!
it annoys the hell out of me to see blimmin teenages charging round on their poor horses, constantly jumping and never doing any flatwork. these poor horses do nothing else and dont know how to bend, have not built up correct muscles tec yet are expected to jump well. then they wonder why their horse stops going clear.................

sorry rant over!!

 

[Navalgem]

I'd like to think basic schooling I expect them to be able to get a horse to work in a good outline through leg pushing up the contact to hands rather than pulling back (which lots of people do) and mine can do simple leg yield, shoulder in, turn on the forhand and flying changes (only across the centre when changing rein), all of which I think help the jumping, as they listen to leg aids, and are supple and flying changed are invaluable to get onto a right lead and land on a right lead preferable in jumping, can save seconds and possibly prevent knockdowns as the horse should then be balanced when approaching the fence although I appreciate this isn't the only thing that balances them) Hope that makes sense! lol

 

[dieseldog]

I think you can get away with it up to about Newcomers. When I used to have flatwork lessons I told the lady that I wanted gears in my canter, to be able to shorten and lengthen. I wouldn't want a horse in a out and out long and low outline as if you get to a fence wrong the only thing you are going to be able to do is kick and take a long one.

90% of a SJ course is on the flat and I think coming around the corner (especially indoors) is where most people lose it.

 

[hatters]

An instructor always said to me - jumping is just flatwork with jumps inbetween.
Always consider it very important - not that I do enough of it these days.

 

[tigers_eye]

Well I think the nice thing about watching many top show-jumpers work their horses is their focus on creating optimum balance of horse and rider, which will vary according to build etc! They don't get bogged down in what it looks like, but rather how useful it is creating the best situation for getting to a fence and clearing it. I remember watching Franke Sloothaak riding Weihaweij (or however her name was spelt!) in a flatwork demo and it was amazing what he could do with her: one time changes round a circle, pirouettes etc. Her outline would have been too low and round for a dressage arena, but her hocks were most definately underneath her and they were a picture of lightness, ease and harmony to me...

 

[RachelB]

That was what I was always taught as well, jumping a course is 90% on the flat and 10% in the air. Or something along those lines. I think there is (as DieselDog pointed out) a slight difference in the way SJers and dressagers want their horses to go, but basic training on the flat is essential really to any jumping. If you had a young horse you wanted to SJ, you wouldn't get on it and start jumping straight away, you'd work on the flat first to ensure you can control pace and direction (as a bare minimum!). Same with a beginner rider, you don't hop on a horse and jump straight away. And as with riders, it is important for a horse to keep up practice with the flatwork. I always notice a difference with Cookie's jumping when he's been schooled a lot in the preceding couple of weeks, he's a lot more responsive and easier to keep balanced.

 

[Forget_Me_Not]

IMHO Jumping is the easy bit...Perfect flatwork and majority of the jump sorts it's self out...

How common is it to see a horse going beautifully on the flat then as soon as he enters a course of fences its out the window....

 

[Fahrenheit]

I think flatwork is extremely important, when i use to ride i was taught that show jumping is flatwork with jumps!! I think the best show jumpers school on the flat to a very high standard but their are still showjumpers that think that flatwork is just a quick walk trot canter before jumping, i'm not dissing them, some of these riders can be still be very effective.

 

[gloster_image]

Jumping is just flatwork with jumps in the way.
It is ESSENTIAL to have good flatwork foundations on the ground before you leave the ground!! I'm riding one atm that has just started jumping, but is trained to a v high level of dressage - and boy can you tell! He jumps out of a lovely, bouncy canter in the same rhythm, v balanced.

 

[Fahrenheit]

Just randomly off topic (and because I didnt want to start a new thread on the subject! but mat NG & I have discussed this (because she asked me if I was going to post on this thread of yours and I said what thread....) and we just can't get use to your new name, we think you should change it back to bbmat, we are thinking of setting up a petition too for you to change it back!!!

 

[horsey1992devon]

I think god flatwork is essential for good showjumping (at the higher levles anyway) because you can teach a horse how to shorten and legthen the stride upto a jump, how to collect his paces up etc.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

I guess the major difference is that Show jumping flatwork concentrates on one pace the canter. Whilst you can get a certain way with no flatwork and a good jump it still will soon catch up with you. I would say my flatwork is quite good yet in my last lesson it was what my trainer felt was letting down my jumping. I didn't have her listening enough and flexible enough to really lengthen and shorten the canter enough.

 

[Bossanova]

I think all sjers at a decent level will have a thorough grounding on the flat. They all go in outlines, are trained to be very bendy and flexible and above all, submissive.
However, I think very few sjers even at the top level ride their horses with the same goal as good dressage riders- self-carriage and lightness of forehand are very rarely seen in the sj world.
I think the tendancy for sjers is to over-bend the horse and have it running a bit too much downhill. I also think there can be a tendancy to over-collect and rely on the fact the horse has a very powerful natural hindleg to give it the jump, rather than to create a lot of power by sitting the horse down on its hocks properly.

 

[katelarge]

I think twenty years ago, probably fantastic flatwork was not so important. We had a few rough and ready riders like Harvey Smith - and Geoff! - who were great at finding talented horses and getting performances out of them, but could you ever see Harvey working on flatwork? No chance!

Jumping's changed so much, the questions course builders ask have changed and now there's more emphasis on SJ horses as complete athletes giving a performance that require elasticity, submission, collecting and extending as well as just a big jump.

HOWEVER if I was jumping to a high level and had to choose between two youngsters, one with a massive jump and poor posture, flatwork, etc, and one with beautiful flatwork but a pokier jump, I'd still choose the first one.