Foal Market in the UK

[jeanette10]

Just wondered what people's thoughts were on this.

I have been speaking to several breeders who have used top named stallions down to the unproven/young ones and all are saying that the market is very slow! A lot of people "tyre kicking" as Ken once said!

Have been watching the auctions abroad, and the Elite auctions are commanding "some" higher prices, but the majority of foals (some out of high level stallions and mare lines) are getting anything between 4,000 - 8,000 euros (£3,225 - £6,451). The higher ones around 15,000 euros, and the "odd" ones at high 5 figures.

Do you think it is all down to the "credit crunch"?

Seen one UK bred foal on the British Dressage website today at £10,000........is this realistic? A cremello foal was advertised in Horsedeals for £12k?

Noticed a lot of breeders looking for £5k+ for foals in the H&H last week but I wondered how some got to this price, because from the pictures or description I could not see anything that seemed enough to warrent the price they were asking??

Do breeders have a cause to complain if they are asking for £6.5k+ for their foals? Should they not just drop the price if they want to sell them, or does this then set a precedent for future sales??

Just interested to hear the thoughts from others?

 

[scotsmare]

From the other side of the fence, as a buyer I have been looking for the last couple of months at foals, I've bought one and am still in the market for another.

I have seen moderate foals (described as wonder foals

) who are moderately bred (both dam / stallion line) only to find that the breeder wants £6k plus for them. Whilst I don't mind paying for a youngster who will do the job I want it to, I don't appreciate being fleeced. I'm at a loss to how they came to that figure, particularly when stud fees / mare keep etc would have come to less than a third of that amount.

So, from a buyers point of view - how do you breeders come up with your prices??

 

[southsidestud]

i think due to the recession creaping in everything will get even harder i see so many adverts that now say Must Sell i think next year will be really bad i think you could bag yr self a bargin because prices seem to have dropped and not many people buying

 

[Faithkat]

[ QUOTE ]
So, from a buyers point of view - how do you breeders come up with your prices??

[/ QUOTE ]

The price I put on my foal last year [who is now a yearling, and still the same price] was suggested by the stud whose stallion I used and where the mare went to foal down.

 

[Foxfolly]

We haven't sold anything that young and we were planning on keeping ours and producing them with the thought that if we were offered a reasonable price we'd sell.

We had someone asking what we had the other day so OH told him and gave him some prices, and he is coming to look tonight so not sure we can be too far out, as he didn't squeak at the price!

4yo just about to be backed, 15.3 unknown breeding (Believed to be Appaloosa x) make a lovely RC horse / hunter or even show. Nice pop on the lunge very light on his feet not flashy warmblood moving but very correct. We like him a lot so..... £5k

Colt foal at weaning by Icon's Image, out of unknown breeding cob mare. To make 16.h-17hh Nicely put together, straight correct mover. Bred to make RC / Hunter / Wroking Hunter even possibly novice eventer. 4yo half brother here with us so we know roughly what he'll turn out like!!
£4K

Coloured Filly at weaning by Icon's Image out of flashy looking mare by Dynasty. To make 16hh Moves beautifully, well marked bred as SJ / Eventer
£5K

This is not intended as an advert as we aren't actually looking to sell, this is just the price we put on them as they are now!!

 

[britbreeder]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not intended as an advert as we aren't actually looking to sell, this is just the price we put on them as they are now!!

[/ QUOTE ]

it read like a H&H classified

Anyway, the foal (and I'm only talking about horses bred to perform at the high levels in the Olympic disciplines, just to totally cover my arse, so that no one gets offended, because they think I'm dissing their native bred horses, when in fact I'm actually talking about a market which is totally removed from they are trying to produce, that does not make it better just designed with a certain job and goal in mind, and not to make them feel in anyway small, insignificant, looked down upon, or belittled) market in the UK:

It depends on what you want. If you want good money, you have to breed with the best mares and breed with the best stallions, don't even bother to argue about that because you'd be wrong 99% of the time. There is always an exception to the rule, due to good quality bullshitting or the good old fashioned mug punter.

The top prices this year in the UK went to those breeders who were using the hottest/best stallions available, Quidam de Revel and Berlin.

Brightwells shot themselves in the foot when they allowed themselves to become a "dump" sale for Renkum stud. The foals were nothing and were worth not much more. The market doesn't lie. Those foals sold for what they were worth - average £2400. Henk's no fool, he knows that he cannot take any of that youngstock to France when he moves there, because they would have NO value. So best to out them in the UK where at least they'd get something, regardless of how little. To be frank, selling those foals detracted from the fact that two very well bred foals sold for over £11,000, which is very very good money.

The market will always exist at some level, because there are a dozen or so breeders in the UK who are pushing the boundaries and doing a seriously good job, breeding European standard foals. Some of the rest will follow in time, but that will take education.

The relationship is very clear, and is staring everyone in the face. Breed the best and you'll get the best prices, even as foals. To use lesser quality and to try to bullshit it's value higher will work sometimes, but buyers aren't always stupid and auctions give a very good indicator of value.

If you want to improve your sales, here are some very simple suggestions:

1 - Buy yourself a very good mare (not that easy)
2 - stretch your budget to the best stallion that you can afford, educate yourself as to what is hot and what is not, what is well regarded and successful. Try to see through the bullshit, and look for fact. "how many kids has he had go to the Games/win in young horse finals/go for top price at auction?". The information is out there, you just need to find it, or take proper advice.
3 - Register with a credible stud book, that will add value to your foal (that's simple).

Follow that advice and you'll be surprised how few foals you're up against here in the UK.

 

[wonkey_donkey]

Hi BB, can I ask you which are the dozen or so UK breeders who are doing a seriously good job please. By the way I'm not being funny I'm just trying to educate myself on the breeding side, so PM if you would prefer. Ta

 

[lacampbell]

In relation to the original title of this thread, "Foal Market in the UK" I agree with BB's comments.
Incidently, I am one of those small private breeders using "top market/ high priced/ Olympian" stallions on quality graded mares.... I have two adverts running at the moment and have not had one phone call. Though I did have one text which was simply "price?" (isn't that rude??)
So, what is the the general opinion of state of the foal market in the UK?

 

[Faithkat]

My price isn't silly then. She's out of a nicely bred Anglo Arab by Carnaval Pleasure (Carnaval Drum x mare with Voltaire and Ramiro g/sires) and I'm asking £3k. I didn't get a single reponse to my ads last year and I'm not throwing any more money away on ads at the moment so it's just a word of mouth job until she's 4 backed and going.

 

[southsidestud]

Millfield Stud i think are heading the rightway they have some lovely stuff i awlways have a nose on there website Trojan Equine i like what they are breeding and also i like what Southfields Stud are breeding~Best Bred Horses

 

[Foxfolly]

Well our interested bloke didn't tun up anyway ...no phone call either so had the lot in and tidied up til 8pm grrr!!

But I'm actually glad about as I am keen to get the 4yo started and do stuff over the winter and sell him in the spring!
The foals also I don't want to sell now unless we are offered silly money for them!! I would value our 2 at £3K & 4K for the coloured as they stand now. But really want to keep the coloured filly and put her to our stallion (Assuming she still looks as good) as a 3yo then back her and turn her away to foal.

 

[britbreeder]

Those "dozen" are mostly clients of Ken's (I haven't included myself in that number although I am his biggest UK Client), thus there's no way I'll reveal their names, but one or two lurk on this board. Interestingly, with the exception of registering their foals with Zangersheide (see advice 3), none of these breeders really needed Ken's advice, because they had already figured it out for themselves (because it's not that complicated).

My opinion on the UK foal market, is that it is there to be created. Enough crap is being bred for the best to rise (like cream) to the top. In any market conditions, the best will always sell, the middle market and crap will stay in the owners fields unless they can bag a mug punter and fill them with BS. The only difference in poor market conditions, is that you'll sell the best for less, but you'll still sell.

<font color="purple"> Application of standard arse covering clause: and I'm only talking about horses bred to perform at the high levels in the Olympic disciplines, just to totally cover my arse, so that no one gets offended, because they think I'm dissing their native bred horses, when in fact I'm actually talking about a market which is totally removed from they are trying to produce, that does not make it better just designed with a certain job and goal in mind, and not to make them feel in anyway small, insignificant, looked down upon, or belittled. </font>

 

[Foxfolly]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not intended as an advert as we aren't actually looking to sell, this is just the price we put on them as they are now!!

[/ QUOTE ]

it read like a H&amp;H classified

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah yeah

I know I thought that once I saw it posted

but genuinely I am not looking to sell them, just OH thought if the guy was willing to pay top whack he was welcome to line our pockets!!

 

[stolensilver]

But the market in the UK is not for potential international superstars. Over 95% of horses in the UK never do one affiliated competition. The market is for nice, sound, sane, sensible horses. The foals that I see advertised are mostly in the 3-5K bracket and potential allrounders or show horses are commanding the same prices as warmbloods with big name bloodlines. They seem to be selling in similar quantities too.

One of the foals that reached the final of the Futurity and was graded elite and scored 9.75 out of 10 is for sale for £4750. I'm sure she is lovely and top class. Doesn't that speak volumes about the market over here right now for potential superstar foals?

I went searching for a youngster with the brain and talent to potentially do GP dressage earlier this year. What I found is the reason why every rider I know ignores bloodlines. Horses that on paper should have been jaw droppers were no more than nice. Breeding for top class performance is a huge gamble. Average is a lot more common than outstanding. I ended up with a youngster by a first season sire that I knew nothing about. Bloodlines counted for nothing in the horse I bought. A good horse is a good horse no matter who the parents were.

Quaterback is a hot stallion right now isn't he? He covered over 600 mares in his first season. Several of his foals made it to the elite auctions. 1 went for over 100,000 Euros. The rest at the same auction went for below average prices, if I remember right about 4-5,000 Euros. Take off the auction costs from that price and the breeder has made a loss despite having an above average foal. Breeding is an absolute gamble and I'm not sure that going for the hot, fashionable stallion is the right thing to do?

 

[Maesfen]

Thank you for talking so much sense in this and the other thread.
Welcome to the forum as well.

 

[CrazyMare]

If a stallion covers 600 mares, and 5 or 10 are top class, the rest are nice/average but have the temprement of a top horse i.e. hot, sharp, quirky - where are they going to go, what are they going to do in life? The size of the covering book IMH(humble)O does not always reflect the quality of the offspring.

I look around a yard of 40 horses and I see the majority are happy hackers, or RC/PC competitiors, one of those missed the top horses would be the worst thing ever for them to buy. I've seen enough of them bought, labeled as problem horses and sold from pillar to post. A good Irish part bred horse would be perfect.

With regards to what I've bred, that is a pony that a child can take to affiliated competition and be safe and come back in one peice. I haven't sacrificed ability, but I haven't used a fashionable stallion, fashion doesn't suit everyone. It would be like saying 'Well TopShop's lurid pink jeans are in fashion so everyone should wear them' I'd look like a walking blamonge!!!

 

[cruiseline]

Ditto MFH-09

Although, as a newbie, to bring you up to speed, my babies are potential Olympic candidates that 5% you were not talking about.

 

[britbreeder]

<font color="purple"> Application of standard arse covering clause: and I'm only talking about horses bred to perform at the high levels in the Olympic disciplines </font> Sorry to repeat, but it's necessary.

It's been established too many times on this forum, that breeding specifically for the amateur market (and being honest enough to tell people so when selling to them or promoting their product) is not the direction needed to improve the state of breeding in the UK. Before you react, I'm talking about higher level performance horses, not cobs.

 

[Fleur100]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="purple"> Application of standard arse covering clause: and I'm only talking about horses bred to perform at the high levels in the Olympic disciplines </font> Sorry to repeat, but it's necessary.

It's been established too many times on this forum, that breeding specifically for the amateur market (and being honest enough to tell people so when selling to them or promoting their product) is not the direction needed to improve the state of breeding in the UK. Before you react, I'm talking about higher level performance horses, not cobs.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be perfectly honest the 3 principles you outline apply to native breeders (like me) as well. Which is why the Europeans use our top blood lines in many of their sports ponies that do compete at the top.

No they won't all be olympic contenders but they will be the 'best' example of the breed they can be.

 

[tagalog]

back to the question of whether the market is slow, then my opinion is yes. The last 2 previous years my foals (out of top class mare and stallion) have sold within the week. This year not one phone call ........ nevermind I'll just keep him then.

 

[volatis]

I am not sure I'm allowed to post on this thread seeing as Britbreeder seems to only want to discuss future Olympic candidates!
I cant afford to go out and buy broodmares whose first crop of foals are going to be vying for Olympic selection. But I know that if I pick the best mares I can afford and make the right breeding choices and keep the right fillies, i will get there.

I have found the foal market odd this year. I find the coloured fillies always sell well, and again this year that is what all my enquires have been for. last year I had enquires about coloured colts but didnt have any for sale. this year I have two, but no interest in colts, just fillies. That could be an indication that the market for coloured sporthorses is saturated plus the credit crunch, as the majority of buyers for coloured horses so not have high level compeition aspirations, and so there are plenty of mid level coloured stock available, and there is no point paying a bit extra for better bloodlines for those buyers.

I think the market for backed horses is better, so the question many breeders will face this year is, do you drop your prices to sell now, or do you run those youngsters on till they are 3 and ready for backing. (and hope the market has recovered a little by then)

 

[wonkey_donkey]

That's strange? I thought your post was stating that we needed to be educated in the UK . . . so by asking what good UK stud's we SHOULD be looking at to use for stallions and perhaps even good places to buy our broodmares or foal's I thought I was trying to improve what I could breed for myself. But if it's a big secret then how can the UK market and small breeders get better ?????

 

[madmare22]

the market in this country is slow last year my foals were all sold by 1 month, i have IMHO a beautiful filly by stravinsky that i have only had a couple of phonecalls for, she was reserve evnting foal at addington BEF elite show. I will not let her go for peanuts, if necessary wi willkeep her and find a rider to event her for me.

 

[britbreeder]

I don't think it's particularly discrete to discuss in detail other peoples breeding programs on this forum, especialy with the anti-elite witch hunt that rules this board. I can say that they exist, that is not indiscrete, but to go into detail would be wrong. If you want education, go out and find it, the internet is stuffed full of information, it's not like the holy grail but it isn't just going to fall into your lap. Some work is required on your part, if you want to improve your future in breeding.

This thread is about the UK FOAL MARKET, but my arse covering clause is as it states, I'm talking about only the performance end of the market, that doesn't mean that it's the only market. So Volatis you have as much to offer as anyone else on this topic.

 

[magic104]

I would be interested to know what is thought of as the best 12. I keep reading about the best mares, well what are they based on, competition, blood lines? If these mares were so good why do you hardly find anything written about them, why are they not promoted in the same way as the stallions? What is classed a great stallion, because I would have thought it would be the one producing top offspring from a few rather then 100's of mares. Also are we to believe that the rest of Europe are producing these top mares in the 1000's? If not then does that not show that not all of Europe are breeding from the best either despite all their education &amp; access to the best blood lines. I keep saying this as do many others we have seen some cr*p horses coming out France, Belgium, Germany, Holland etc. They are branded &amp; passported to say they were not bred in the UK. I think it a great shame we dont have the statistics to show just how many the UK produce , how far up the competiton level they are etc, compared to say France, Germany etc. Yes the top showjumpers may well be KWPN, but if there are a 1000 more being bred &amp; produced for SJ'g then say the Hanoverian satistics would suggest the KWPN would have a better success rate. I am probably wrong, but would not be the 1st time.

 

[stolensilver]

I think you are right Magic. If a country breeds 50,000 horses and gets 5 Olympic horses from that number are they actually more successful at breeding than a country that breeds 10,000 horses and gets 3 Olympians?

I remember when the old British Horse Database came out it turned up a few surprises based on top level offspring compared to number of mares covered. One event stallion called Duke of Durness had sired just over 20 foals in his entire life. Over half of them became advanced eventers. Just because almost no one had ever heard of him and even fewer people used him did not stop him being one of the best event sires in the country.

I strongly believe that the best stallions in the world are a very different group from the most famous stallions in the world.

I think outstanding broodmares are also rare and special creatures. My first ever riding instructor rescued a little TB-type mare from the knacker man. She had no papers but he liked her and bred (if I remember right) 12 foals from her by 11 different stallions. All bar one of them became Grade A showjumpers. One went to the 1960 Olympics as a 7yo. That horse was called Madison Time. Now that is what I call a special broodmare!!!

 

[alleycat]

One thing that always puzzles me a bit is who DOES buy foals? There's a big gap between a weanling and a finished horse; so who has the patience and experience to fill it? Top class riders are surely too much involved with competition to spare the time to bring up, break in &amp; bring on a horse bought as a foal especially as that foal may not even make the grade whilst riders who are looking for a pleasure horse are more likely to be looking for something that is already rideable- and safe. So where do commercial foals go in the 3 years or so before they are ready to satisfy their target markets?

My foals have been bred for me, and if they have gone to new homes they have always gone to friends, usually just backed or ready to back. A commercial breeder doesn't always have this luxury- so who buys them and brings them on?

 

[volatis]

A bit of both for us, some of them stay till backing (which I do) and some sell as foals. Often to people who want to do a bit of showing or who want the whole experience of handling them from day one and backing them themselves, but without the worry of getting a broodmare, putting her in foal, foaling her down etc etc

In fact one of my home breds, who went to his new owners at 6 months old, has just come back for backing.

 

[siennamum]

My brother views dozens of 4 year old mares in germany. they are bred in the purple, they have bred a foal and it was mediocre - as are they!, and they are consigned to either the meat man, or if they are vauguely attractive they may go to small scale dealers/ riding schools. (like my brother) Not overly descriminating really....