following on from: BIG hoof problems

[serena2005]

So the vet came yesterday, he said hes lame on both front legs, more sensitive on the insides of his soles so he gave him an injection in his heals to numb them.

hes going to have his feet x-rayed next thursday and to be shod by the farrier then, hes going to have bar shoes (??) something like that.

vet insisted his problems had nothing to do with the farrier,which i still dont agree with but hey. i have spoken to my farrier who is happy to shoe him again

down side is he probably wont be sound for at least 2 months, if at all. so if thats the case owner said she will get him as sound as she can then sell him, not sure who would buy him as a lame horse, but there you go!!

so hopefully ( iv heard myself saying this before) we are back on the road to recovery again!!!

thanks for all your support and advice

 

[AmyMay]

Do you have this horse on loan?

 

[serena2005]

not really a loan, he was given to me on the terms they pay for everything and i bring him on untill her daughter can ride again.

 

[AmyMay]

Ahh I see. Couldn't quite figure it out from the previous post.

 

[sally2008]

Hmmmm, sorry to sound negative but I would try and get your vet and farrier together once your farrier has seen the horse. Bar shoes can create so many problems of their own and he might well be able to suggest a more effective (and more modern!) alternative.

Good luck with him.

 

[brightmount]

Is this vet in the same Masonic Lodge as the farrier?

I have noticed how certain vets and farriers stick together, to the extent that when I asked one farrier if he would shoe my horse he said not if I didn't change my vet. Needless to say I found another farrier.

I agree with sally, bar shoes seem a strange suggestion. Natural Balance actually looked appropriate as a remedial shoe for this case while the toe is being brought back by degrees, but hey

 

[serena2005]

i can see what you are saying, i think he suggested bar shoes as his heals are extreamly sensitive, i suppose he just wants to ease that to begin with... im not really sure

when i spoke to my farrier last night i told him who would be shoeing him at the vet college and he said he is a very good farrier, and he would be more than happy to talk to him about what hes doing so he can take over.
i dont really know that much about bar shoes (time to do some research) but i will be questioning the farrier next week, so i know the plan for herbie

 

[loopylucifer]

at least you have some answers now and can try and do something to help and sounds like your farrier is really gd. gd luck!

 

[serena2005]

if this is what the vet was thinking when he suggested bar shoes then i understand now


5) Egg bar shoes A further improvement in the bearing surface in the toe region can be achieved by using an egg bar shoe. The result is that the heels will sink less into the ground and there will be better coincidence of the midpoint of the shoe and the centre of the coffin joint.

6) Reverse shoe An improvement on the egg bar shoe is the use of the reverse shoe with or without side toe clips. Apart from the benefit of a larger bearing surface in the heel region, better breakover of the hoof is achieved. Through this solution, the toes wear slightly between shoeings.

 

[Spot1]

Hi Serena, nice to hear that things are progressing. I have to say that I agree with most of the replies on this thread. There does however seem to be some misconceptions regarding bar shoes. In general bar shoes if fitted correctly should not give any great problem, however I think Sally2008 is right to say that there may be a "more effective alternative"

Egg bar shoes. Tend to equalise the pressure between the two heels they help to stop one heel taking more pressure than the other. They don't change the bearing area of the foot.

Straight bar shoes. Do increase the bearing area, they spread some of the load (the horses weight) on to the frog. This will reduce slightly the pressure on the heels.

Both these shoes are "flat" they do not raise the heel so they wont address the broken back hoof-pastern axis

I'm not sure where you got your definitions from

but they are quite incorrect. I will explain exactly why if any one is interested.

 

[calon]

both my vet and farrier agree on the use of egg bar and heart bar shoes fitted correctley and for the correct use they have great effect but they must not trot on rds or be jumped in them ,i have seen several horses recover from bad lami and navicular episodes by their use and also for weak feet i would give it a go but you must have a good farrier who knows what he is doing good luck

 

[calon]

me agin just seen your other post with pics my farrier has done two that i know with this type of problem one mine one someone elses both fantastic results ,try and get hold of a remedial farrier to do the work ,i dont like the look of the shoeing in the [pics i will add my farrier is my son but we are two far to help you sorry but i do feel with correct work he will improve no end in say 4 or 5 shoeings

 

[serena2005]

i am changing farrier to a very good one.

spotties- please do explain, i got those from a farriers website.
i will be questioning the farrier next thursday when he is shod, and now i know how bar shoes basically work i will e questioning the vet aswell... hes going to love me!

 

[Spot1]

Hi Serena, I will try to give some more information on re-balancing in reference to your horses' feet. On your first post you provided a photograph with lines drawn on to represent the alignment of the pastern with the hoof. This form of assessment is widely accepted, it does however have some margin of error ( if the horse is not standing square, or the camera is angled ) even when on the computer the guide lines are positioned by eye. I have taken this first picture and traced the hoof this gives some angles to work from. (shown in blue)

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I agreed with the previous pastern angle but I think the hoof angle may be a little steeper than originally marked.

I have taken this tracing and adjusted for the (estimated) camera angle (10% increase in height) to give a square side view (shown in magenta). You may recognise this view as it is often used in text books.

[image]http://

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I have drawn some markers in yellow which your vet/farrier may recognise as reference points for shoe fitting ( I don't agree with the way these points are often used but as many do I have included them)

This last drawing shows the changes that I think could be made to the foot.

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The green line shows a proposed trim ( as I have no measurements of the hoof I have worked out the percentage to be trimmed off). The blue line shows the ground line and the heel wedge after trimming.

I must make it very clear at this point that these are guidelines only, as I said before they may contain inaccuracies especially as taken from pictures. Only a registered farrier should attempt to apply this and it will then be their judgment as to the final treatment.

I would expect that the trimming of the toe could change the angle of the hoof by about 10 degrees the rest could then be made up with a wedge or graduated shoe.

More about the yellow lines. I have drawn the references again on the trimmed foot to explain the "Central placement theory". The yellow vertical lines are sometimes used as a representation of the center of balance of the foot, some times the one closest to the toe more often the other, the shoe is then centered on the chosen point. This encourages the use of long heeled shoes set back under the foot particularly egg bars. Does this help? Well it does because it reduces the lever effect that a long toe has on the tendons and it avoids shoes with short tight fitted heels. However I think that done correctly wedges are better. If you compare the reference lines you will see that wedges do all that a bar shoe does in this instance. In addition the wedge restores the correct angle to the hoof.

I have tried to keep this brief, it is a vast subject with many differing opinion's, if anything is unclear please ask me to explain again. Please let me know what your vet and farrier's decide as I am very interested.

 

[Spot1]

Have just redone my drawings. Hope these are clearer.

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[serena2005]

hiya, WOW you have gone to so much trouble for me thank you so much!

i will take a square picture if you like!

where you were talking about the lines goig to the pastern, its not straight because thats where the dip is in his hoof.

i can roughly understand it but im still very confused!! lol
no-one has mentioned heals yet,the vet has mentioned carbon fiber on his heals!! he was saying if you look at his heal from underneath, you can see it sort of folding in on itself. so they are not strong enough. i will question alot more when i go to the college, espically how long he thinks he will have bar shoes on for and where we will go from there, also what he expects in certian time periods.

tanks again!!

 

[Spot1]

Hi Serena,

[ QUOTE ]
i will take a square picture if you like!

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can that would be nice, I could compare it with my estimate just to see how close I got, the diagrams are only guides though so they can never be exact. For a good pic the horse needs to be stood square on level ground looking straight forwards. For a side view hold the camera on the ground at right angles to the front leg try to include the fetlock joint in the frame. If you can, put a coin on edge against the hoof, this will give me the scale. You will probably need help doing this. X-rays taken for hoof balance are done like this, often with a thin piece of wire taped down the front of the wall from the hairline to the ground ( the length of this is recorded to give a scale)

[ QUOTE ]
that’s where the dip is in his hoof

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you clarify the position of this dip, is it shown in the first photograph on the front of the hoof wall by the label "Long toe and broken back hoof/pastern angle"?

[ QUOTE ]
if you look at his heal from underneath, you can see it sort of folding in on itself. so they are not strong enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically yes, but there are a couple of possibilities here.
1. This horse at one time had a reasonable foot, but as a result of becoming long toe, low heel (broken back axis) he now takes too much of his weight on his heels so they are not strong enough for this extra weight. They become crushed or under run. In this case the under run heels could be a symptom of the broken back hoof/pastern axis.
2. The heels have always been too weak to allow full and active use. In this case they could be the cause (or part of the cause) of the lameness. Eventually the horse is going to have problems. This would be part of the conformation aspect that you say your farrier talked to you about.
I suspect that it may be mostly the former and some of the latter.

So what do we do? In my drawings I showed a possible route, to get back to a balanced foot, that should reduce the pressure on the heels( also the back of the hoof, tendons ect.). I showed a number of steps that could be taken, some or all of these could be used, each step effects the next. The toe is long so it is trimmed back ( see my last diagram shaded in green) this has the effect of standing the horse on his toe taking the weight off of his heel, the shorter the toe the better, ( unless it goes too, far in which case he may be sore), how close you go is down to the skill and judgement of your farrier. You may in this first step have made enough improvement to allow some “good quality” heel growth. In this case perhaps just fit a nice ordinary wide webbed shoe (it could be an egg bar, if you like, in any case it shouldn't do any harm). In time the reduced pressure on the heel should allow it to grow back. The chances are however that you will have to go a step further to get some improvement (or to speed up the correction) Wedges (as in my diagram) or heart bars.

[ QUOTE ]
the vet has mentioned carbon fibre on his heals

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a relatively new idea. Carbon fibre matting is bonded (stuck) to the hoof wall at the heels in order to make them stronger. I will try to find out some more info on this. Accepting that I have very little expertise in the use of carbon fibre, there is one point that springs to mind, perhaps you could put it to your vet. “If the heel is already under run and collapsed then is there any point in supporting it in that state?”
For difficult cases of under run heels it is often recommended that this distorted heel be cut away and be replaced with a wedge (think of it as a temporary artificial heel). If you were able to “nurse” the foot to achieve the heel that you wanted perhaps then it would then be a good idea to protect/reinforce it with carbon fibre? This would cover the second possibility of (congenital) heel weakness I gave above.


[ QUOTE ]
i will question alot more when i go to the college, espically how long he thinks he will have bar shoes on for and where we will go from there, also what he expects in certian time periods.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds great, I look forward to you explaining some things to me

So ask plenty of questions lol

 

[Spot1]

As a follow on, some pics to demonstrate how trimming can rebalance a foot. In this case trimming was deemed the only step necessary and got the foot close to balance.

[image]

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[serena2005]

wow that is quite a difference! when my farrier began correcting his feet almost a year ago he said he wasnt going to take it too far back to quickly as his feet are so soft and it would just make him foot sore.

i will try and take pictures tomorrow before i go. unfortuatly he wont be getting shod at the college as the farrier is fully booked but hopefully ill be having my farrier out asap.

im starting to get nervous about taking him now. last time i tried to take his to the vets he broke off the lorry and broke the lorry!!

hes never travelled on his own, we took him round the block on his own at the weekend and he started to settle after about 10 mins... iv been practicing loading him tonight, he had a few leg stretches by rearing flinging his feet on to the ramp... the bugger, after a tantrum he walked on without battering an eye lid! talk about testing me!!

my boyfriends driving, my last resort!! hes never driven a trailer before!!! or dear ill be in tears by the time we get there!!