Following the BTV thread, give and retake?

Cragrat

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So a horse should learn to seek the bit, resulting in some weight in the rein. In free walk on a long rein, or the 'allow the horse to stretch' trot, higher marks are given when a horse does this.

But in the same level tests you are also expected to give the rein for 3 strides in trot, and get higher marks if the horse DOESN'T seek the bit. A BTV horse has the advantage here, because they don't notice the lack of contact, not having had it in the first place.

I guess it's supposed to show the horse isn't leaning on the bit to hold himself up, and that the rider isn't hauling the head in, but surely that should be clear from his way of going / hind legs etc?
 

Cragrat

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That would make sense, yet it isn't what I see happening. The horses that stay 'in position' get higher marks.

I also watched the Anna Ross Davies video, demonstrating how it should be done, and she says "as you can see, the horse didn't change his rhythm or his outline, which is exactly what we want to see" . So not following the bit then:(
 

blitznbobs

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Most horses that I see. Either stay put or fall on their nose. Neither is correct but very few just lengthen their outline slightly looking for the contact. My cob does it very well and usually gets an 8 for his give and retake... Despite his non Warmblood looks and short stride!
 

Farma

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Give and retake should show the horse carrying itself not leaning on riders hands the rhythm needs to remain the same.
You should be able to ask horse to remain in self carriage when offering the rein and ask for stretch to seek the contact. Different exercises imo.
 

oldie48

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Not sure I agree with this, thought give and take was to release the contact and retake it whist the horse stays in balance, rhythm engagement etc, so can't see any advantage in being BTV as the horse will have an incorrect contact. Eg if held there by riders hands will show this as soon as riders pushes the hands forward or if horse is holding himself there, there is no contact to release
Give and retake - the horse can seek the bit but shouldn't change rhythm.
 

Batgirl

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There are key differences in how the movements are ridden to me (though this is a subject of much debate on the BD forum too ;) )

G&R:
Give and retake the reins
The rider pushes forward one or both hands as stated on the test sheet to clearly release the
contact and then retake it. The movement of the hands/hand should be continuous and
achieved over two or three strides. As this is a test of self carriage the horse should stay in
balance, keeping the same rhythm, level of engagement, suppleness of the back, and accept
the restoration of contact without any loss of submission

Key things are the self carriage, rhythm etc, as a rider this should be a quicker movement than asking for stretch, release the contact and a smooth retake showing self carriage and ability for you to retake the contact with no argument.

Allowing the horse to stretch:
3.5. Stretching on a long rein. This exercise gives a clear impression of the
"throughness" of the horse and proves its balance, suppleness, obedience and
relaxation. In order to execute the exercise "stretching on a long rein" correctly,
the athlete must lengthen the reins as the horse stretches gradually forward and
downward. As the neck stretches forwards and downwards, the mouth should
reach more or less to the horizontal line corresponding with the point of the
shoulder. An elastic and consistent contact with the athlete's hands must be
maintained. The pace must maintain its rhythm, and the horse should remain light
in the shoulders with the hindlegs well engaged. During the retake of the reins the
horse must accept the contact without resistance in the mouth or poll.

This is a slower movement of the reins while you as a rider encourage the seeking of the rein (but looking for the same levels of engagement, rhythm etc)

If you are giving your reins in the same manner you should get the same results but you should be giving the reins in a different way and expecting different things (think different aids, how does your horse know the difference between a 'bigger' working trot and medium trot?, because of different aids).
 

Batgirl

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Oh and yes a 'fixed' BTV horse would have the advantage as it would be it's normal way of going (to the untrained eye at least) HOWEVER a horse that is leaning and BTV would figuratively fall flat on it's face as it is BTV because rider is holding it there.
 
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