Foolish Question for Studs and Breeders

[Shilasdair]

Who are you breeding for?
As a non competitive pleasure rider (although not novice) I feel that studs are all competing with each other to produce Olympic horses....and dislike selling horses to pleasure riders like me.
I resorted to breeding my own replacement pleasure horse....but surely I can't be the only buyer who feels their needs are not fully met...?
S

 

[DAHH]

S, I know exactly what you mean.
I breed soley for me, in the hope that I may produce a good replacement for my show jumpers. When looking for horses to buy I got sick of them failing the vetting or being stupidly expensive. The cost of buying a quality horse is shocking and competely prohibitive.
So I decided to go the long and risky route and breed my own. I was very lucky to own 3 very well bred mares, 2 of whom are grade A, who have formed my foundation stock.
Even if I don't succeed in producing another grade A, I have had great fun and will at least produce some well bred hackers!

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
S, I know exactly what you mean.
I breed soley for me, in the hope that I may produce a good replacement for my show jumpers. When looking for horses to buy I got sick of them failing the vetting or being stupidly expensive. The cost of buying a quality horse is shocking and competely prohibitive.
So I decided to go the long and risky route and breed my own. I was very lucky to own 3 very well bred mares, 2 of whom are grade A, who have formed my foundation stock.
Even if I don't succeed in producing another grade A, I have had great fun and will at least produce some well bred hackers!

[/ QUOTE ]

I found studs have a really bad attitude to the clients...(with the odd exception) and can't escape the notion that they breed for their own edification...not to meet a market need.
I am also a bit wary as I know many stallions who mysteriously were put down after 'accidents' which in reality were the discovery of hereditary defects...their stock being sold on without comment.
In fact, I do know of studs where the majority of their youngstock are reputedly not sound enough to break...

S

 

[Anastasia]

Breeding for both myself and the market. I do not put my mares onto stallions just because they are the "in thing", as that is breeding purely for the market. I like to select the stallions, including my own, and match to the right mare. In the hope of producing something that can be ridden by anyone from happy hacker right up to International standard (should any ever get that far). With good trainability, conformation, soundness, movement and hopefully jumping ability.

I dont care if my youngstock never make international horses, as long as they are going to excellent homes, where they will receive the care and attention they deserve, and give their new owners much pleasure. Of course it is great to hear them going on to do big things, who would not be happy in breeding a horse capable of going to high level sport.

But i would never turn any buyer down just because they dont want to be competitive etc. Our horses have gone onto competitive and non-competitive homes and at the end of the day, as long as they are healthy, happy and the owners love and adore them, then that is all I worry about.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
Breeding for both myself and the market. I do not put my mares onto stallions just because they are the "in thing", as that is breeding purely for the market. I like to select the stallions, including my own, and match to the right mare. In the hope of producing something that can be ridden by anyone from happy hacker right up to International standard (should any ever get that far). With good trainability, conformation, soundness, movement and hopefully jumping ability.

I dont care if my youngstock never make international horses, as long as they are going to excellent homes, where they will receive the care and attention they deserve, and give their new owners much pleasure. Of course it is great to hear them going on to do big things, who would not be happy in breeding a horse capable of going to high level sport.

But i would never turn any buyer down just because they dont want to be competitive etc. Our horses have gone onto competitive and non-competitive homes and at the end of the day, as long as they are healthy, happy and the owners love and adore them, then that is all I worry about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the reply.
Do you do any formal market research into the types of horses that customers want...or is any done in the industry?
And do you think it is the same type of horse which a happy hacker like me, and which a competitive eventer, say, would ride?
S

 

[volatis]

I like to think we breed athletes with great trainability. So if they end up in a non-competitive home they should still prove to be a pleasure to own.
Yes I am trying to breed horses with the capabilities to really do a job but we have sold to serious compeition homes and to people who only want to do RC stuff but still wanted a quality, well bred horse.
I dont see how any stud can afford to be rude to potential buyers, but sadly I do know of some. I think they must be hobby breeders who are breeding because they feel like it and dont need to market or sell their products. Therefore they dont need to worry about upsetting people.
I have turned away potential buyers before, not due to their aspirations but because I didnt feel they were ready to take on a foal and didnt feel responsible selling to them

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to think we breed athletes with great trainability. So if they end up in a non-competitive home they should still prove to be a pleasure to own.
Yes I am trying to breed horses with the capabilities to really do a job but we have sold to serious compeition homes and to people who only want to do RC stuff but still wanted a quality, well bred horse.
I dont see how any stud can afford to be rude to potential buyers, but sadly I do know of some. I think they must be hobby breeders who are breeding because they feel like it and dont need to market or sell their products. Therefore they dont need to worry about upsetting people.
I have turned away potential buyers before, not due to their aspirations but because I didnt feel they were ready to take on a foal and didnt feel responsible selling to them

[/ QUOTE ]

So you do believe that the same horse would suit a RC rider, as would go on to 3DE etc?
I'm just curious about studs/breeders...as I would have been a willing buyer (and an agent for a few more sales from clients) but was put off by very poor customer service.
The stud I did eventually use for AI was fantastic...WKS...my mare came into season somewhat unexpectedly and I managed to get semen sent immediately with no hassles...but this great service was the exception

I agree regarding foals and unsuitable people (like me

)
S

 

[Doublethyme]

Funnily enough I was thinking this yesterday, after reading some threads on here. Am just about to post a question on this part of the forum as considering breeding a replacement for myself from my mare.

It seems that a lot of the pros seem to be very anti indescriminate breeding (to which I agree to a point), but if everyone is out to breed the next Olympic champion what happens to all the people who just want a happy hacker or riding club level or even something in between?

I am going to put my post up as would like some suggestions on stallions, but am expecting a few negative replies, as my mare isn't a competition horse, but I think will throw me a nice foal (hopefully) for what I want.

Edited to add : sorry my thread was written and then delayed in posting (blooming work

) - its nice to see some breeders who have such a lovely attitude and don't think that every horse they breed hasn't fulfilled its potential if it goes to a lower level home.

 

[Anastasia]

Well I guess that depends on what the rider wants to purchase. Me and you may have completely different thoughts on what we like or dislike.

Dont do any market research at all, just go on my own breeding thoughts, and basically if people agree then they will buy the youngster, and if they disagree then they wont come to us in the first place.....

I guess we must be doing ok as people generally come back to us....

We tend to sell most our horses as foals, generally because many people want to improve on the horse they have got/or had, but cannot afford to purchase the same bloodlines as a 3 year old onwards.

[ QUOTE ]
And do you think it is the same type of horse which a happy hacker like me, and which a competitive eventer, say, would ride

[/ QUOTE ] Well again it would always be up to each individual, but generally why not??, Its good to know a horse can be used for any discipline and rider ability....

The stallion we lost last year, Geneve, was a true testament to the above. I could ride him at home (being non-competitive) and my friend would come over from America (who rides up to GP) and get him to do all the fancy dressage movements. I enjoyed riding him because he gave me a huge sense of safeness, yet he could up his game given the right rider on his back...

However, there will always be youngsters or horses that you know will not be appropriate in novice hands, and you just have to be open and upfront with people.. I could not work any other way.

 

[Shilasdair]

When I was planning for my happy leisure horse's replacement...I did look at a number of studs and found a theme;
1. They all thought their horses were going to be the next Olympic champion.
2. 'Price on application' was synonymous with 'hideously overpriced'
3. Their websites with the stallion info, and the youngstock for sale info were always out of date...
4. There was an obsession with stallion/mare gradings, points, studbooks, etc that meant SFA to me...and I worked in the equine industry for about 15 years!
5. Hence why I'm curious as to their target market...
S

 

[Maesfen]

I have to be honest and say although what I breed are always for sale, I actually breed for myself, it's my hobby!

If I didn't think I was going to get a good looking, good tempered athletic individual which will be able to do a good job for someone, whether that be hacking, at riding club level or higher, then I wouldn't be breeding at all, I'd go back to knitting!
At the end of the day, they have to be saleable at whichever level and not everyone wants or is capable enough to need a worldbeater; they need nice general riding horses that are easy to deal with which is what I am aiming for but it's always a big bonus when they go on to be successful at something; that gives me a real buzz to think that my little mare produced that!

I'm sure the other breeders will have other reasons too and I'm sure I have forgotten to add something pretty important, I usually do!

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
When I was planning for my happy leisure horse's replacement...I did look at a number of studs and found a theme;
1. They all thought their horses were going to be the next Olympic champion.
2. 'Price on application' was synonymous with 'hideously overpriced'
3. Their websites with the stallion info, and the youngstock for sale info were always out of date...
4. There was an obsession with stallion/mare gradings, points, studbooks, etc that meant SFA to me...and I worked in the equine industry for about 15 years!
5. Hence why I'm curious as to their target market...
S

[/ QUOTE ]

Well there is a lot of that, but as I have said before to others just because people have POA does not mean hideously overpriced, as some people have found to their surprise.

Its like any form of marketing. If I was to have a foal on my website with the following:

Nice filly, sweet temperament, good moving, ok bloodlines, would suit novice to experienced rider.

Would I get anybody taking any notice.....perhaps not.

I advertise my foals on what I feel myself, that in the right hands they could excel in high level sport. Yes perhaps there is an obsession with stallion/mare gradings and Studbooks etc, but on my part this is what forms the foundation of my breeding stock. If I was not fussed about making sure I had the quality as the bases of my foundation then were does that leave me as a breeder, and my clients.....

People come to us as a stud because its almost like their guarantee that we have tried to source the best quality mares we could afford to purchase and have been careful with stallion choices, or stallions we purchased.

All the big studbooks - Oldenburg, Hanoverians, KWPN, Holstein etc are based on years of breeding stock, looking at vast amount of statistics on what traits sires or dams throw, whether they are stronger in one particular area on the conformation, to the movement, to the jump. Not all the horses from these studbooks make Olympic level..........we would be lucky to see 2% of all horses bred go to this level, but you need some form of building blocks to base your breeding on.

Lets look at it this way, how many imported horses from Holland or Germany do you see advertised in the UK in H&H weekly, or at your local RC event, quite a lot I would expect, and all have come from studbooks where through the generations people have selected mares and stallions based on gradings, performance and improvements.

This is no different to producing pedigree sheep or cattle, the very same applies. People use certain bulls or cows to improve on milk yield, quality of the beef etc

However, you will get people who dont care about breeding, as long as the horse can jump, event, do dressage, can show etc...

 

[koeffee]

i found stud to be expensive to buy horses from and if you wanted a nice pleasure horse it would cost around £3000, or it is expensive to use there stallions.my mares would cost around £1000 to put in foal. when i had three mares it proved to be very expensive and i have since found the stallion was not the best producer of good salable stock, threw lack of movement in many foals, and not very trainable. now i breed for me, and if people like what i have then i will sell them for a sensible price. i bought my own stallion and have some nice well bred mares who have all performed well, so i am able to keep cost down for people who want a pleasure horse or some one who may want to compete, the stock are bred well enough they may have a super star!!!

 

[Shilasdair]

There seems to be a bit of an unmet customer need for the sane, sensible all rounder who can turn his hoof to most things.
I talked (a few years back) to some NZ breeders...they said they'd started off trying to breed top quality horses...then realised that only covered about 3% of the market so changed their breeding strategy to Clydesdale cross TB's to meet the needs of the average horse rider...and were very successful.
S

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
There seems to be a bit of an unmet customer need for the sane, sensible all rounder who can turn his hoof to most things.
I talked (a few years back) to some NZ breeders...they said they'd started off trying to breed top quality horses...then realised that only covered about 3% of the market so changed their breeding strategy to Clydesdale cross TB's to meet the needs of the average horse rider...and were very successful.
S

[/ QUOTE ]

But S honey......this market is met.........by all those imports coming in by the lorry load per week from abroad......

And if there was not a market for the horses we breed then we would not do it....otherwise we would have shed loads of horses at home......

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There seems to be a bit of an unmet customer need for the sane, sensible all rounder who can turn his hoof to most things.
I talked (a few years back) to some NZ breeders...they said they'd started off trying to breed top quality horses...then realised that only covered about 3% of the market so changed their breeding strategy to Clydesdale cross TB's to meet the needs of the average horse rider...and were very successful.
S

[/ QUOTE ]

But S honey......this market is met.........by all those imports coming in by the lorry load per week from abroad......

And if there was not a market for the horses we breed then we would not do it....otherwise we would have shed loads of horses at home......

[/ QUOTE ]

The market isn't successfully met, honey

...I know of many many happy hacker types who bought youngsters from studs here or abroad who couldn't cope with the horses they were sold...good news for me in my schooling nutters days

A production orientation may be working for your stud...but I wonder if I took the prices charged by some studs...and retrospectively worked out the costs...whether they would be profitable...or were a 'hobby' so to speak.
S

 

[Anastasia]

My humour got lost in scottish translation........I can tell.....

[ QUOTE ]
A production orientation may be working for your stud...but I wonder if I took the prices charged by some studs...and retrospectively worked out the costs...whether they would be profitable...or were a 'hobby' so to speak.
S

[/ QUOTE ]

Ehhmmmm..........too many long words in one sentence....can you expand please...ta....

Cannot make up my mind if you are saying people are being ripped off by some studs (which I would agree on), or whether people are making no profits at all (which I would also agree on)......

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
My humour got lost in scottish translation........I can tell.....

[ QUOTE ]
A production orientation may be working for your stud...but I wonder if I took the prices charged by some studs...and retrospectively worked out the costs...whether they would be profitable...or were a 'hobby' so to speak.
S

[/ QUOTE ]

Ehhmmmm..........too many long words in one sentence....can you expand please...ta....

Cannot make up my mind if you are saying people are being ripped off by some studs (which I would agree on), or whether people are making no profits at all (which I would also agree on)......

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm Scottish too...

A production or product orientation is where a business focuses on what it's producing, whereas a marketing orientation looks at meeting the needs of customers.
I was only making the point that many small studs don't know how much it costs them to breed a foal and sell it as a 2yo or 3yo, whereas costs and profits for standing a stallion are a little easier to work out.
My aim is to confuse the world so I feel I can claim a partial success.
S

 

[no_no_nanette]

"I talked (a few years back) to some NZ breeders...they said they'd started off trying to breed top quality horses...then realised that only covered about 3% of the market so changed their breeding strategy to Clydesdale cross TB's to meet the needs of the average horse rider...and were very successful."

And how right they were!!

Our angel horse is Clydesdale X TB X ?pony? and jumps like a stag, has the most wonderful temperament ever, witnessed by my getting him in in the pitch dark the other night across 2 fields, hanging round his neck to keep upright 'cos of muck, mud and unsuitable footwear. (I really wasn't drunk, promise!) He was a total gentleman.

Mind you, I did find a stud in the US who were breeding Clydesdale X TBs for the next but one Olympics ...

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My humour got lost in scottish translation........I can tell.....

[ QUOTE ]
A production orientation may be working for your stud...but I wonder if I took the prices charged by some studs...and retrospectively worked out the costs...whether they would be profitable...or were a 'hobby' so to speak.
S

[/ QUOTE ]

Ehhmmmm..........too many long words in one sentence....can you expand please...ta....

Cannot make up my mind if you are saying people are being ripped off by some studs (which I would agree on), or whether people are making no profits at all (which I would also agree on)......

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm Scottish too...

A production or product orientation is where a business focuses on what it's producing, whereas a marketing orientation looks at meeting the needs of customers.
I was only making the point that many small studs don't know how much it costs them to breed a foal and sell it as a 2yo or 3yo, whereas costs and profits for standing a stallion are a little easier to work out.
My aim is to confuse the world so I feel I can claim a partial success.
S

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.......... Well I can only say from my own perspective is that as a stud unless you have your own rider you dont make much money at all once the horses reach 3 year old, as you are paying for backing and somebody else to ride them. Also on the stallion front, again if you dont ride your own then it costs a mortgage to pay somebody else to ride them, not to mention insurance, farrier, vets, competition expenses, advertising (which occasionally works), costs for semen freezing etc.

Hence my earlier comment on not wanting many riding horses....

 

[Guinness]

The owners of the stud where I work breed primarily for themselves. They only use the stallion on our mares, and have only once had a visiting mare to the stud that I know of.
This year we had 5 foals, the three fillies will all be kept to breed from, the two colts will be gelded and sold. We have four geldings in the process of being backed at the moment, one of which will be kept and shown, the others will be sold. We never advertise our horses, all are sold word of mouth. Consequently they rarely sell horses and are probably losing a fair bit of money! They sold one last year that went for endurance, but apart from that I think the owners keep most of the horses they breed!

 

[pinkcatkin]

Gosh that was an interesting read! I am breeding a what I hope will suit me as my next riding horse but will also be saleable (in case I lose my legs or I don't get on with the youngster and think it would be in better hands elsewhere) so I am trying to back two horses - as it were. I want exactly what Shilasdair wants, a sensible, kind, honest all rounder to do a bit of anything, BUT hopefully with the paces and looks to be saleable.

It seems to me that in this country we should be trying to compromise between what seems to be currently available - i.e. great material but rather green and overpriced as 4/5 year olds, and what the Germans have to offer in bucketloads, which are lovely 3/4 year old horses but usually overproduced too young, which has obvious drawbacks in soundness.

 

[MissIndependance]

I suppose we're a bit different to a lot of the bigger studs and some of the more niche market smaller ones in that I want to breed conformationally sound and temperamentally sound horses which can go out there and do a job, and also be someone's horse of a lifetime too. So perhaps not aiming at the higher end of the competition/professional market - but the higher end amateurs, the people who want a decent RC level horse that could go further if they ever decided they as a rider wanted to, but who wasn't too hotheaded or too much of a 'proffessional rider's horse' fot them.

 

[volatis]

I think the danger in trying to breed an average horse is this.
When breeding there tends to be a pattern that a percentage of what you breed will be better than you expect, a larger percentage will be as you expect, and some foals will be not as good as you hoped.

Now if you start off by aiming for a nice average horse, when you breed a foal that is in the not as good as you hoped section, it is worse than average. However if you are aiming to breed really quality sport horses then your not as good as you hoped foal, should still be a nice all rounder, just not the serious sport horse you hoped for. I know thats a bit simplistic but I always worry when as a commercial breeder you are only aiming for nice but average. There are plenty of ncie but average horses out there so why try and breed more, if you are breeding you should aim to improve on your foundation stock.

Now I agree that breeders do seem obsessed with pedigree and grading scores and heritability etc, but we wouldn't be good breeders if we weren't. When you read a German sporthorse magazine, the pedigrees of the mentioned horses are always shown so to the riders in Germany they are much more used to seeing and therefore understanding pedigree information.

Also I think a commercial breeder if going to be pushed to make a living if they are selling cheap all rounders as foals as surely the value of such foals is barely above the cost of getting them on the ground? So were can the breeder cut costs? In the quality of the mares they buy in the first place? or in the feed bill, or the vets bills? I dont know. Having said that I know of breeders with their own stallions crossing native breeds onto TB type mares and vis versa and producing nice RC type foals. I assume they make monye as they are still in business, I just know I couldn't cut costs enough to do it myself with my set-up.

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]
Who are you breeding for?
As a non competitive pleasure rider (although not novice) I feel that studs are all competing with each other to produce Olympic horses....and dislike selling horses to pleasure riders like me.
I resorted to breeding my own replacement pleasure horse....but surely I can't be the only buyer who feels their needs are not fully met...?
S

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you're going to the wrong breeders!

I breed Irish Draughts - and while I hope my best purebred fillies, and any pure-bred colts who are serious stallion prospects, will go to serious breeders - ideally ones who show - that still leaves some very nice pure-bred geldings and the Irish Sport horse fillies and geldings - most of whom will make stunning pleasure horses!

The only criteria I place on a buyer is that I believe they are experienced enough to give a youngster a good chance in life - and that they will look after them. I would FAR rather sell to someone who wants a horse for life than someone who just wants a horse to win with!

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]

It seems that a lot of the pros seem to be very anti indescriminate breeding (to which I agree to a point), but if everyone is out to breed the next Olympic champion what happens to all the people who just want a happy hacker or riding club level or even something in between?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think EVERYONE should be anti indiscriminate breeding - but of course everyone's definition of 'indiscriminate' is different. The competition breeder wants mares with great verified breeding who have competed to - say - 2* level because they know those mares stand a better chance of producing high priced foals.

A HELL of a lot of foals that are bred aren't 'economic' and will be sold for less than the production cost. Some of mine certainly fall into that category - but then I have a 2nd reason for breeding them as they are by my stallion. When people come to look at him - with a view to sending a mare - I like to have a few nice examples of his stock out of different types of mares so the client can see what they might get from THEIR mare.

I have a couple of brood mares who I wouldn't have BOUGHT as brood mares - they were hunters (and good ones) and I owe them. So now they're having nice babies. They weren't papered - so their foals are lower value - but the mares had decent conformation, good action and - most important - great temperaments.

This is Charlie - he's a yearling who will make 16.3 (at least) His Mum was a 16.3 MW hunter. He's a lovely mover and is SO laidback he'll make a lovely Riding Club type or hunter for anyone. I'm certainly not ashamed of breeding him - though I'll lose money on him.

And this chap is a 2 year old out of a believed TBxPercheron - 17 hh - who my husband hunted for 6 years. She was a real novice ride - totally unflappable - and I think her son will be the same. He'll also be at least 17 hh and already has 10 inches of bone - so he'll carry a big man hunting all day (and I'll lose money on him too!

)

The PROBLEM with breeding 'ordinary' youngsters is that the people for whom - eventually - they'll be the perfect horse may not be experienced enough to bring them on. They want something that's 5 or 6 years old and already backed, schooled and riding quietly. But they DON'T want to pay £8-10,000 for them - which is what they would cost to keep and produce to that stage.

 

[PrincessDana]

My friend bought a filly from a stud in Scotland who was advertised as POA. She wasn't even going to call, thinking it would be well out of her price range. How wrong she was!! The filly was very reasonably priced, extreamly well bred and absolutely gorgeous to look at and handle. Had she wanted to buy this same horse as a 3 year old (even unbacked) she would have had to fork out 3 times as much money to buy her. So POA doesn't always mean mega bucks

As for breeding for a market, i think breeders should breed the best they can, using the best mares and stallions and ones that have proven themselves in competition or been assessed in a grading. I think as long as temperament is taken into acocunt when breeding then the resulting offspring should be fine for riding club level or the higher end of the disciplines. Ok so maybe not the next world champion, but you never know

Obviously the owner/rider has a lot to do with how these babies will turn out. You could own a Donnerhall son or a daughter of Voltaire but if the horse isn't trained correctly it's not going to get very far, although in the right hands it does have the potential to go all the way to the top.

Breeding anything is a gamble but i think using the best you can, raises the odds of producing a nice horse who will be as happy to go to riding club level as it would to go affiliated.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who are you breeding for?
As a non competitive pleasure rider (although not novice) I feel that studs are all competing with each other to produce Olympic horses....and dislike selling horses to pleasure riders like me.
I resorted to breeding my own replacement pleasure horse....but surely I can't be the only buyer who feels their needs are not fully met...?
S

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you're going to the wrong breeders!

I breed Irish Draughts - and while I hope my best purebred fillies, and any pure-bred colts who are serious stallion prospects, will go to serious breeders - ideally ones who show - that still leaves some very nice pure-bred geldings and the Irish Sport horse fillies and geldings - most of whom will make stunning pleasure horses!

The only criteria I place on a buyer is that I believe they are experienced enough to give a youngster a good chance in life - and that they will look after them. I would FAR rather sell to someone who wants a horse for life than someone who just wants a horse to win with!

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you mean regarding wrong studs...and I'm sure your stud and your stock is really good...but I have an aversion to ID and ISH horses as I've never yet met one I liked riding...perhaps because all the worst falls/accidents I had were on ISH....

Other peoples' ISH, I hasten to add...
I've probably just been unlucky...
S

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose we're a bit different to a lot of the bigger studs and some of the more niche market smaller ones in that I want to breed conformationally sound and temperamentally sound horses which can go out there and do a job, and also be someone's horse of a lifetime too. So perhaps not aiming at the higher end of the competition/professional market - but the higher end amateurs, the people who want a decent RC level horse that could go further if they ever decided they as a rider wanted to, but who wasn't too hotheaded or too much of a 'proffessional rider's horse' fot them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that sounds more the type of horse I've looked for myself and, in the past, for clients.
S

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]

However if you are aiming to breed really quality sport horses then your not as good as you hoped foal, should still be a nice all rounder, just not the serious sport horse you hoped for.


[/ QUOTE ]

I find it interesting that you think failed high level competition horses are exactly the type happy hackers like me would want. By the same token, you could argue that a failed NH racehorse would be suitable for a novice...
I don't believe that's true...that often the top horses are not simple, easy rides...that talent often comes with a sharpness of temperament which makes them trickier rides.
S