Foot experts advice please

[LizzieWizzie]

Link below to pics of my 25yr old TB mares feet, new shoes (hope it works!). Your immediate thoughts/ opinions on feet/shoeing would be very welcomed please...

Fronts shod today, backs 1 week ago.

http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/LizzieWizzie22/slideshow/

 

[cptrayes]

You need to pm the farrier heel first who posts on here and ask his opinion of wedges.

What does your horse think of them?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Dillon prefers no wedges these days!
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=+dillon

 

[Polonaise]

The real question is is the horse happier with them on or not? Kept mine soundish for years with bars and heals and whatever that years fad was, don't knock it if it works (but she is sounder barefoot).

 

[LizzieWizzie]

Cptrayes how do I pm the farrier? (Sorry am new to this forum malarkey)... thank you...

She does seem happier with her heels raised. She had a tendon injury last year, not lame, but fronts starting giving way occasionally and vet recommended raised heels to take pressure off. Our Farrier was recommended by our vet...

She was checked by a Physio a week ago who thought she was amazing for her age, she'd personally had success with one of her vintage horses and raised heels with heart bars and suggested these. Mentioned to farrier who felt this was last resort, so to try the raised heel for a bit longer first.

Mare seems to struggle to hang on to them, they are heavy and are ripping out of her hooves causing damage, as you can see in pics...

Her hinds are shod normally.

Just want to do the best by her to keep her as sound as possible in her vintage years!

Keep trying to post and forum keeps kicking me off - anyone else experiencing issues?!

 

[NellRosk]

Hi Lizzie, has she always stood like that with her legs underneath her? (5th and 17th pic I think)

 

[ktj1891]

This is what the report said

Connor was admitted to Donnington Grove Veterinary Surgery on 13th June 2014. The horse was mildly lame right fore and the lameness had been localised to the foot by a positive response with an abaxial sesamoid nerve block. The horse consistently had an increased digital pulse. Connor was currently “barefoot” and did trot almost sound with boots on.
On 13th June 2014 Connor underwent an MRI scan of the right fore foot and right fore fetlock. This revealed minimal abnormalities. There was an old area of bruising or bleeding on the back of the deep digital flexor tendon at the level of the pastern joint. There was some sclerosis of the medial condyle in the fetlock.
I have advised that Connor has no significant soft tissue or bone abnormalities within the right fore foot and fetlock. MRI is not universally sensitive in the detection of pathology in the foot. In particular, disease of the hoof, such as bruising, does not show up well, nor does articular cartilage erosion in the coffin joint.

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

This mare has always had good feet in our eyes, but we are of course not experts, this horse broke her pelvis 10 yrs ago, and although she isn't jumped anymore shows no outward signs of problems. Last year she damaged her check ligament and had the summer off, she has come back into work and is not lame at all, but occassionally drop a leg whilst hacking, the vet recommended raised heels to take the pressure off.... we have a new farrier and since he has been putting these wedges on they keep pulling off and ripping her hooves apart ( old farrier had her in lightweight shoes)
Physio came the other day and said she has no lameness and is very flexible and recommended raised wedge heart bar (graduated frog support frog shoe by jim blurton... farrier seems to think there is no going back from there so to leave it for a last resort!
Her hind feet are shod normally, but i have never seen her feet look so bad.
My friend obviously wants to do best by her mare and us not being experts thought we would ask here....
Would you be so kind as to look at the actual shoeing and tell us if you think hes doing a good job or not, forgetting if you agree about wedges or in fact shoeing, can you tell by these photos if we have a good farrier or not? Hinds were done an week ago and fronts done yesterday. It's obviously very important this mare has the correct foot support.
She hunts lightly in the winter.
Her frogs are fine underneath, and she seems happy in the raised heels, is she any better than shod normally I am not sure?

 

[Fides]

When they said raised heels to take the pressure off the pressure off what? If she wasn't having problems, why did they feel the need for a change?

as for the shoes themselves - I didn't want to comment earlier as mine are barefoot. But the pictures made me sad for your horse

 

[Meowy Catkin]

If the hooves are deteriorating, then it's not working. TBh - it's not a bun fight between BF and Shod camps, shoes are a tool to be used or not used as required. In this case I wouldn't want to put shoes (even perfectly fitted) on those hooves.

 

[twiggy2]

I think people are asking questions about the need for wedges they are trying to establish if they agree they are needed, if they disagree then they probably don't feel the farrier is doing a good job.
If the shoes keep coming off and the hoof is becoming damaged then a point will be reached when there is not enough hoof to put a shoe on, that is logical. what will the farrier suggest when that point is reached?

what feed and supplements does the mare get?
what access to grazing?

when people talk of raising the rear of a horses hoof it just makes me think of women that wear heels all the time-their tendons contract and flat shoes (natures design) become uncomfortable at best and impossible to wear at worst. raise the horses heel and their tendon will contract too and it takes a very long time to gradually reduce the height of the heel and create a more natural length of tendon

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I agree T2 - a good farrier knows when no shoes is the best option.

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

Sorry the tendon issue was different.... she drops a leg sometimes when ridden, the vet felt this was a pain issue although sporadic, and raised heels would take pressure off.
Faracat, I know it's not a bun fight, and the op was really after all views, open minded to anything, really wondering still what people think of the skills or the farrier, for example the hinds if we take the fronts out of the equation, are they balanced ? etc etc... two of our horses are unshod, we are not the anti barefootbrigade

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

Shes on 24 hour grazing, and happy tummy & happy hoof or whatever its called (sorry not my horse op having trouble responding

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Can a farrier be a good farrier if the hooves are getting worse and they keep doing the same thing?

The photos aren't the best (needed to be taken with the camera on the ground for the front on, side on and heel shots) but there is a lack of heel support.

The shoes are too short, so the heels stick out. You've got contracted and under-run heels and a change of hoof angle (so long toes) on the fores. The wedges make me wince as I've not seen a hoof that hasn't got worse at the caudal hoof with them on. I don't like it when the frog is covered as you can get nasty thrush under there.

The hinds aren't as bad, but the shoes are still too short and the heels are under-run with a change of hoof angle (so long toes).

The whole thing is just horrible TBH. I'd be down the stables taking them off if it was my horse.

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

Thankyou, this was really constructive, I know you probably think we are really ignorant, we could see the toes were long,hoof that hasn't got worse at the caudal hoof with them on.... could you explain what you mean by this? Thanks

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Please don't feel bad that you are needing to ask questions. You know that something is wrong, so you are asking questions - that's good. I had to learn because my mare had hoof problems, so I understand your position.

The caudal hoof is the back of the hoof, so the back part of the frog, the bars and the heels. By 'worse' I mean more contracted, more under-run, a smaller/more contracted frog, so everything essentially getting weaker and possibly developing into sheared heels.

I now look back at the horses I have known in the past with great sadness. Especially the ones that were PTS with navicular.

 

[amandap]

I am not an expert or know zip about shoeing tbh but how can long, under run heels be supported by shoes? Look at where the heel bulbs are and follow the heel wall down, you will see the heels look long and forward in that photo. Look also at the hoof wall angle at the front of the hoof, there is about a couple of cms at the top at one (steeper) angle then the angle changes. The toes are running forward and the farrier is rasping them to look short but that doesn't stop it. Toes running forward pulls (distorts) the whole hoof capsule forward including the heels.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Yep, AP is right - long toes and under-run heels often go hand in hand.

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

Faracat I'm also very worried about my youngster ( 4 yr old) he has asymmetrical hinds, similar to the ones on the Rockley Farm website.... he had these from being in his natural state, old farrier kept saying no foot to trim to change this, new farrier saying OMG he is done in for if we dont sort them, described his hoof as being raped! He has no hoof at all from road wear so can't change the shape, said the only thing we can do is shoe him so he can grow some hoof so i can encourage the correct shaped hoof.... I have no faith in this farrier now :-( will produce photo over the weekend, we have to do right by these horses, but its a mine field if you put your trust in someoneand then other people tell you its horrendous! Looking at Rockley Farm they are suggesting its natural for him to have feet that shape :-/

 

[amandap]

The key is what does the horse think about his feet. Is he sound and moving well? The hooves can't have been "raped" if they haven't been trimmed.
Many bf horses have walls a smidgen above the sole. Horses bear varying amounts of weight on all the structures on the bottom of the hoof depending on terrain, hooves are not designed to carry all the weight of the horse on the walls alone.

To be able to nail you need a longer wall or you have to trim sole to seat the shoe in my understanding.

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

He was very foot sore :-/ hes very happy with his shoes in, slams them down like he can't believe they don't hurt anymore

 

[Meowy Catkin]

DD, photos would be very interesting.

 

[LizzieWizzie]

Apologies everyone, connection issues! Thank you for all your comments...

This is her 4th set with this farrier. She had six months barefoot last summer after the check ligament issue, was sound but unridden obviously. Brought back into work slowly with no lameness, although began to drop her fronts, particularly downhills. Vet diagnosed arthritic pain and possible navicular issues and suggested raised heels to alleviate pressure and redistribute weight away from areas of pain. She was then in lightweight graduated shoes (different farrier) rather than graduated pads. (Am not as keen on pads and concerned about thrush, although this hasn't been an issue as yet.) The previous farrier kept her toes quite short and she held the shoes well. Her heels showed little sign of collapse and her hoofs were healthy looking with no visible cracking.

We changed farrier due to other issues, there was no apparent problem with shoeing. New farrier has expressed concerns that graduated shoes/pads may collapse heels and after first set of graduated pads suggested and tried a therapeutic frog support pad, but I felt her stride shortened and became quite choppy, particularly down hills where her fronts also were giving way more...

She also couldn't seem to hang on to the (very expensive) pads and had one front re-fit three times, farrier was struggling to get nails to take purchase anywhere due to the poor quality of her hoof...

Her fronts were due last week when her hinds were done, but the graduated pads had not arrived and by this week her toes were very long, and her feet very splayed, dry and cracked. Farrier advised that a lot of horses were suffering with dry cracked hooves at the moment, but I have never seen her feet look this bad

Am concerned that it is the wedges that are causing her heels to collapse and that we are causing another issue trying to find a solution to our initial problems! The wedges are also forcing her pasterns into a straighter, more upright angle and I don't want this to cause secondary issues... The wedges do seem quite high.

Am happy to try any solution, barefoot is a consideration - she does need keeping in light work to keep her brain happy and her body supple, without shoes she is very sore and reluctant to leave the comfort of the paddock...

She loses weight and will get depressed quickly, so really want to find a balance between comfort and happiness for her in her vintage years!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Hoof boots and pads?

 

[LizzieWizzie]

Hi Faracat... Have been investigating hoof boots and pads, have no experience with them and don't have any equine friends who have used them either... Reading online it seems to be a minefield regarding fit and type and am not quite sure where to start or who to ask for advice... Any ideas?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I've not used them before myself, but others on here have (with great success on footy horses, just out of shoes, with bad hooves in some cases) so hopefully they'll be along soon to help you.

I do love the look of the Renegades though and have them bookmarked in my mind as possibles if I do need to venture into the world of hoof boots.

 

[LizzieWizzie]

Oh they are cool, haven't seen those before! Have been looking at old mac g2's as a suitable option, but then start looking at the options and feel bamboozled! Bring on the experts!!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I've heard good reports about the Equine Fusions too.

 

[LizzieWizzie]

The ultimate looks really interesting and therapeutic for rehabilitation of hooves - which is what we need!

Think perhaps I should ask the advice/opinion of a specialised barefoot trimmer - any recommendations in the Devon area anyone?!