Footsore barefoot cob - advice please

[WishfulThinker]

My boy is currently barefoot again after having shoes on for 1 months and being barefoot for a year before that. He has had the shoes off since the beginning of August, but he is more sore than usual, and only really on his front feet. His shoes have come off as he has quite small hind feet for his size, and the front feet expanded after being barefoot last time, and we have hoped that his back feet might expand a bit. But I am not sure he is happy so I was thinking of putting front shoes back on him as to get to the indoor school we have to walk over hardcore and loose stones which he absolutely hates - and understandably so.

He is also croup high and on the forehand and someone said that just having that extra cm odd might make a difference to how he goes - in a good way. He is perfectly happy when ridden on grass though, and can still go like a bat out of hell if he so chooses!!

So basically I am looking for any advice - about how to help harden the soul of his hoof, or with regards to the shoes. Last time I had the shoes off he was turned away as I had broken my ankle so he had 2 months off and was only ridden on grass.

Any advice appreciated.

 

[dun_in]

I agree, I had the same problem, put the front shoes back on - magic cure.

 

[_daisy_]

All my horses are now barefoot. If you want to stick to barefoot then you are going to have to persevere with the hardening of his feet.
The harder the surface, the quicker his feet will harden up. Lots of roadwork is good for their feet. In the mean times you might be best buying him some hoof boots like old macs or boas. Out of my ridden horses (3) only 1 has boots on and she has had everything going with her feet. She is a chronic lammi pony with a huge sandcrack. Shes been barefoot since March/April time and she is slowly getting there. She hacks out with her front hoof boots on and weve recently notice a huge difference with her as now she will happily ride on hardcore without and shortening of her strides. The boots last for ages and there is hardly any sign of wear to her boots and she has worn them daily (for exercising only) since going barefoot.
Good idea is to feed magnesium to him, that will help strengthen his feet.

Can I ask who trims your horse? Is it a farrier or a barefoot trimmer?

 

[WishfulThinker]

It is a farrier - he is trained in heavy horses though and gaited horses. He is new but on speaking to him he seems to care and understand about their feet a damn site more than the others in my area. I did mean to ask him if he could trim them in more of a 4-point trim to see if that would help.

The other issue is that he has got a crack on his back hoof, only the outer wall but he said that it splays a bit at the bottom so I am to watch for infection so it is disinfected daily.

He is moving fields tomorrow and will not have to walk over a gritty path as he did before - this was really small stones and I would daily have to pick/push them out from the soles of his feet and along the white line. His feet do not grow fast at all - but are hard. That last trim was 7 weeks from having shoes off and there was less than a 1/4 mug full of shavings needed to come off.

Part of me would like to completely leave his feet to balance themselves as we had issues with farriers before that resulted in him not getting trimmed for 7 months (was pestering farriers DAILY to come and see him but none would/could not would vet/ilph/sspca!) bu the was walked out on varied terrain, as was the field varied terrain and he was performing better than ever and in my opinion it was because his feet balanced themselves.

 

[_daisy_]

see what should happen is that the sole will pull up and will harden up if left barefoot whereas farriers trim the excess growth of foot of in prep for a shoe. They do this whether it is having shoes fitted of not so it may be that you should ask your farrier not to trim his feet back but to shape and balance them then get out doing lots of road work etc to harden them up. He will naturall wear his feet down so there is no need to worry about him growing long feet etc. They will brobably break up at the quarters but this is to be expected in the process of barefoot.
All my horses are a lot happier now they are barefoot and very raely have anything taken off their feet. They are shaped and balanced and thats it. They wear their feet down and grow enough for them to be comfortable.

the pony with the crack in her foot is slowly getting better. We keep an eye on the crack and my trimmer will come out the same day if anything happens to it. It is knitting back together which will make her foot stronger but until it has done what it needs to do weve just got to keep watching an waiting.

 

[WishfulThinker]

He only had the hoof levelled, the edges rounded of and roll points sorted, and frogs trimmed, he didn't use the 'giant nail clippers' as I call them.

 

[chestnut cob]

I don't agree that a farrier will treat the hoof the same whether the horse is being shod or not. I had my horse unshod for a while last year (3 months on the front, a year almost on the backs) and my farrier never trimmed them as in took lots off, he just shaped and balanced them.

Back to the OP - if it was mine I would put the fronts back on personally and get your farrier to sort out the backs.

 

[Spot_the_Risk]

Hm, been here too. When we had the last lot of foot and mouth a few years back, I tried my cob barefoot, have an excellent farrier who trimmed him 4 point, and he was walked out daily, getting up to a mile. When we could start hacking again, I kept him barefoot, and we hacked jast as we had with shoes - but he was never as free and easy in his gait. Due to his shortness of stride (he was sound) I decided to go back with shoes again.

We have just taken on loan a very heavy weight cob, who was unshod. I would say he was unshod rather than trimmed as a barefoot horse (if that makes sense). He has had three months or so doing nothing in the field, so his feet were not hardened to work. When he came to us a month ago, and we started to hack him on our local stony tracks the poor boy did stumble a bit. His owner was happy for him to be shod again, and he had fronts only put on last week. He has been ridden Saturday, Sunday and Monday (due for a rest!) and hasn't stumbled at all, and we have been on stones, paths, roads, hardcore, the lot. The downside is that his feet are now so huge, he has Shire size shoes, despite being about 15hh. Praying he is careful where he puts his feet when I'm around him!

If you want to harden his feet, use Keratex, farriers recommend it, it's great.

 

[brightmount]

If you just need a pair of slippers to get over the stony areas of the yard I've got an old pair of Old Macs you could have for the cost of postage. They are size 6 to fit hoof width 140mm, length 130mm (give or take, as they are well worn so not a precise fit any more).

 

[dieseldog]

Shoe it?

 

[Orangehorse]

I wouldn't go with the 4 point trimming. A barefoot horse has to have time to develop the internal structure of the hoof, not just harden the sole up.

If he doesn't like the stones then buy some hoof boots (easiest) or get some Sole Mates and tape on (a fiddle - I cut the sole mates in half and put them inside the boots.) You can often buy second hand boots off ebay if you just need them for occasional use. If you need them for riding as well you will have to suss out the different makes and suitability.

I would say that the Sole Mates are the quickest and best thing to use. The effect is noticeable after only a couple of weeks of regular use. The Sole Mates are pads made of a resiliant material that provide the correct support that the hoof needs so the horse can move correctly and comfortably and develop those internal structures!

It does take TIME to develop a really sound, happy barefoot horse, and if you do too much too soon you risk bruising the sole.

Eventually the sole will develop an upward curve (concavity) which will lift the sole up from the ground so you can work the horse over all sorts of different going. The hind feet develop first, as they are doing more work.

I can ride my horse over anything now, he is barefoot on the hind feet. He is mostly OK on the front now, although I put boots on the fronts if I know I am going over very stoney tracks. He is perfectly sound on a smooth surface of any kind, but it has taken 18 months to be able to say that.

 

[spaniel]

For heavens sake what is this obsession people have with horses being barefoot.

Your horse is sore and you people seem quite happy to put them through months, potentially years, of pain and anguish because of a cultish whim.

Theres a very easy solution.....PUT SHOES ON.

 

[JACQSZOO]

Agree completely with Spaniel. My friend is still, 3 1/2 years on, battling with a footsore horse with the misguided impression that she doing the horse a favour. For christs sake its down right cruel.

 

[WishfulThinker]

Well he is fine now.

Some might argue that Shoes are cruel - I mean they dont pop out their mother like that, so its hardly a 'fad' . There is a 4yr old on our yard that has never had shoes on and he is fine with anything that is under his hooves as he has never felt shoes, so its in a way cruel to 1st put shoes on as that is messing with the normal workings of the hoof.

If Alexander the great and his armies managed to win with unshod horses, and the Greeks I don't see why a simple riding horse needs the damn things. It's only been around for 500 odd years (hot shoeing) and I seem to remember reading that horses were around a wee bit before that

I put shoes on - he got an abscess, and even with picking them out twice a day they stank! Now he has no abscesses, and he doesnt get stuff trapped in them that puts in infection.

 

[dieseldog]

The horses that Alexander the great rode 2,500 years ago were slightly different to the ones we have now. they hadn't been interfered with as much. If you really want to go barefoot buy a horse that it is suited to - one of those mongolian ones or caspian are supposed to be very pure bred, mongol horses as well they look tough. But when you own a horse that has been genetically engineered by man, and not in a way to improve its feet you are going to hit problems. BTW the Romans used to shoe their horses they had to as they invented roads....

Glad you think he is better though

 

[ISHmad]

[ QUOTE ]
Agree completely with Spaniel. My friend is still, 3 1/2 years on, battling with a footsore horse with the misguided impression that she doing the horse a favour. For christs sake its down right cruel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Our horses are barefoot and fine. But couldn't agree more with Jacqszoo - that is plain and simple cruelty. It is not an easy road having barefoot horses and not for the feint hearted either. But under absolutely no circumstances should a horse be in discomfort for any period of time, let alone 3 and 1/2 years FFS.

 

[spaniel]

Just to put a further point. I have absolutely no problem with horses being barefoot if they have never been shod. If you bring on a youngster and it seems they really do have no need for shoes then thats fabulous but to take a shod horse and then ask it to cope whilst inflicting pain is cruelty IMO. Thats the fad/cult I have issue with.

Ive seen it first hand and it has scarred my memory and ruined a friendship.

 

[Orangehorse]

"I have absolutely no problem with horses being barefoot if they have never been shod. If you bring on a youngster and it seems they really do have no need for shoes then thats fabulous but to take a shod horse and then ask it to cope whilst inflicting pain is cruelty IMO. Thats the fad/cult I have issue with."

So what has the shoe done to the foot to make the horse unable to cope without shoes? A horse CAN go barefoot, having once been shod, only the longer it has been shod the longer it will take.

My horse has never been sore or lame since the shoes were taken off. In fact looking at him now in the field for the first time since he was 3 he is walking correctly. (Aged 9).

I took his shoes off because I was worried he was starting navicular, I could see that his heels were contracted and he was landing nearly toe first. He was tripping and felt uncomfortable. I got the vet and the farrier, they could see nothing wrong.

To rest his feet I took shoes off temporarily, for a rest, but theb continued. It hasn't been easy. It is MUCH easier having a horse shod because you don't worry about the feet all the time. I have wondered a time or two about going back to shoes, but haven't. Not because he is sore or lame, but because it would be easier for me.

My friend has a horse that was shod, went lame, used up £5,000 of insurance money on vets, x rays, etc. joint injecttions, remedial farriery. Came to the end of the 12 months and was advised there was nothing else to be done. Still lame in the field. PTS????

She went barefoot and has just completed an endurance ride and finished completely sound. Been barefoot since the summer.

So it can be done. But the horse should not be sore. If it is something is wrong and the owner should do something about it, even put shoes back on.

 

[brightmount]

[ QUOTE ]
It is MUCH easier having a horse shod because you don't worry about the feet all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with all you say orange except the above. I have 2 horses, one is shod, the other is barefoot. The barefoot one I never have to worry about. The shod one has kicked herself three times injuring her leg, twice the damage was done by the clenches (not excessively risen I may add!). Then she recently half removed a shoe, twisted it, and impaled the toe clip in the sole of her foot

What a nightmare. My friend has a cob who likes to paw at wire fences and was always having to be cut out by the farmer when she got her shoe stuck in the wire, so she has taken the shoes off to solve that problem.

Then there are the occasions when they throw a shoe and everything comes to a halt while waiting for the farrier to be able to fit you in!

My barefoot horse was out with the stallion for 12 weeks without any foot maintenance. They were long when she was taken out for the podiatrist, but superstrong and healthy, no cracks or splits, and one trim put them back to looking beautiful again.

The BF horse had navicular issues from successive bad shoeing, resulting a contracted hoof that was out of balance, and she was very lame, that was why we went barefoot with her and haven't looked back. A horse shouldn't suffer even in the early transition if you are taking the advice of an EP about conditioning and working within the scale of usability.

 

[spaniel]

" A horse CAN go barefoot, having once been shod, only the longer it has been shod the longer it will take."


And this is where my objections start. Why subject your horses to months or possibly years (and dont deny it happens because Ive seen it countless times) of severe pain for the sake of your whim to get the horse back to barefoot.

It matters not one bit HOW the shoes may or may not have changed the foot....its the intervening period between shod and barefoot that can become downright cruel.

 

[M_G]

a quick and easy solution...Put shoes back on

 

[JACQSZOO]

Gawd this annoys the hell out of me. I have nothing against horses going barefoot. Infact my own Georige is unshod behind and Tallagh who I owned a couple of years ago was barefoot. I also took Royales shoes off for a while. These horses have never shown any sign of soreness so I didnt have a problem with it whatsoever.
HOWEVER, there is no way anyone can justify putting a horse through months and in my friends case, years of footiness under the misguided impression that they are doing the best for their horse. They are not. They are being cruel.
Some horses happily take to barefoot and there are others that do not. And then some upstart "trimmer" who has done a couple of day courses tells you its just a transition period that everyone has to go through. Poppy cock. Do the right thing. Stop being brain washed by the evangical idiots that call themselves the barefoot movement and do the right thing by your horse.
My freinds horse is only really comfortable on grass and soft surfaces - this is thee and a half years since having his shoes removed. How the hell can that be right? How can the trimmer justify saying that he will come right eventually? The only time that horse is going to be comfortable on his feet is when hes had a bullet through his head.

Try it by all means - but for gods sake get the advice of your FARRIER not some unqualified quack. LISTEN to your horse he will soon tell you when hes unhappy and above all remain open minded.

 

[Honeypots]

I have to disagree with you in that not all farriers trim the same whether they have shoes on or not. I only have one pony that has fronts on from time to time and her hoof is prepared very differently from the others..

 

[Honeypots]

agreeJacqzoo

if a horse is taking 3 yrs to adjust then its unlikely he going to or someone is seriously doing something wrong..

My cobbie was shod for 5 yrs before I got her. I got the farrier to whip her shoes off, tidy them up and she's been fine ever since. My other cobbie has had shoes on and off for several years..no probs. Daughters pony has her fronts on and off depending on whether she's in regular work or not..no probs..

 

[funkymeerkat]

[ QUOTE ]
" A horse CAN go barefoot, having once been shod, only the longer it has been shod the longer it will take."


And this is where my objections start. Why subject your horses to months or possibly years (and dont deny it happens because Ive seen it countless times) of severe pain for the sake of your whim to get the horse back to barefoot.

It matters not one bit HOW the shoes may or may not have changed the foot....its the intervening period between shod and barefoot that can become downright cruel.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this is not an issue isolated to barefoot - and those who do barefoot properly do not put their horses through weeks, months, years of pain. Perhaps those who blindly follow without any knowledge or thought do this, but this is a problem in all walks of life.

Is it not the same thing to keep a navicular or lamintic horse in shoes to try and restore it to soundness? Many of these horses are all lame for sometime. What about a horse with say, a tendon injury, who is lame for some time while it heals?

A horse with any sort of injury will be in some degree of pain while it heals. A horse that comes out of shoes lame is no different, if he is sore without shoes there is damage to his foot. Putting shoes on will not fix the foot, but just cover up the problem. If you break your leg it gets put in a cast and chances are you could probably walk on it in relative comfort. Ok, so its not going to be as good as new lol, but without a cast you will be unable to put weight on it, while in a cast would would be able to step on it (even if you aren't ment to). But you would not say that this is a "magic cure" for a broken leg, the leg is still broken.

We have a 27yo TB with the most appalling feet, he has been shod all his life to keep him "sound". His mother and full sister eventually had to be PTS due to their terrible feet.

In his 20's he was retired, but kept shod infront to keep him comfortable. At 25 he started to go unsound, he had to be shod every four weeks and was getting worse and worse each time, he was incredibly lame in the paddock. We had tried everything with shoes and nothing was working. The option was PTS an otherwise perfectly healthy and full of life horse, or take the shoes off and try barefoot.

I took the shoes off. He was much worse than he had been in shoes, he could hardly move. We kept him on bute and he was reasonably comfortable. After two months he was weaned off his small dose of bute and he was fine. His feet are not flash, but he is happy and sound in his paddock.

What "magic cure" do you use when shoes don't work??

 

[dieseldog]

I can't believe you've just written all that.

If you break your leg it gets put in a cast and chances are you could probably walk on it in relative comfort. Ok, so its not going to be as good as new lol, but without a cast you will be unable to put weight on it, while in a cast would would be able to step on it (even if you aren't ment to). But you would not say that this is a "magic cure" for a broken leg, the leg is still broken.

So are you saying that we shouldn't wear casts and that the leg will heal correctly with all the bones in the right place still and straight. I would say that a cast was a 'magic Cure' for a broken leg as without it you are going to end up a complete cripple. But is that alright as you didn't use something unatural to help cure it.

Is it not the same thing to keep a navicular or lamintic horse in shoes to try and restore it to soundness? Many of these horses are all lame for sometime. What about a horse with say, a tendon injury, who is lame for some time while it heals?

No its not. A lammi pony needs its pedal bone supporting which is why vets recommend heart bars. And are you saying that if a horse has a tendon injury you should also make it suffer by removing its shoes?

So if removing your horses shoes don't work what 'magic cure' do you use then? Or don't you, just bute it up to mask the pain.

 

[pootler]

this is about helping the poster not handbags at dawn over who is right or wrong

try this link lots of very knowlegeable people

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php?board=43.0

ps my thoroughbred ex racer had his shoes off last week and today won a novice with 70 % and 2nd in a prelim on 67.5

 

[funkymeerkat]

[ QUOTE ]
So are you saying that we shouldn't wear casts and that the leg will heal correctly with all the bones in the right place still and straight. I would say that a cast was a 'magic Cure' for a broken leg as without it you are going to end up a complete cripple. But is that alright as you didn't use something unatural to help cure it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope not at all, you misunderstand me. I am just saying that if you put a cast on a broken leg you can probably now walk on the leg, but the leg is still broken, the cast does not instantly reverse the damage - and you not expect to go and exercise on that leg. Of course use a cast!!

If your horse is sore without shoes he is sore for a reason, there is damage to his hoof. If you put a shoe on that foot it does not cure the problem, but the horse can now walk "soundly". Is it right to work the horse when there is damage to his foot? When he is unable to move soundly the way he was ment to, without shoes?

[ QUOTE ]
No its not. A lammi pony needs its pedal bone supporting which is why vets recommend heart bars. And are you saying that if a horse has a tendon injury you should also make it suffer by removing its shoes?

[/ QUOTE ]

My comments here are not with regards to shoeing or not. Just examples, parallels to allowing the horses feet to heal. I did not say take the shoes off a horse with a tendon injury to heal it, I said that horse will be in some pain for a while while that tendon heals. You would not stick say, a bandage on it (ok I know a bandage would not suddenly make him able to walk sound) and then ride him - you would only do more damage to the tendon.

So why is it right to put shoes on a horse that is sore barefoot and then ride away?

[ QUOTE ]
So if removing your horses shoes don't work what 'magic cure' do you use then? Or don't you, just bute it up to mask the pain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if its just a matter of time before the hoof heals, then yes, I would give him pain killers in the mean time. If the damage to his feet is not going to heal I seriously have to consider my options, if shoes would make him comfortable then of course I would go for it, but I would do so knowing that they aren't a true cure, they are a crutch.