Footy after trim

[RHM]

My mare has been barefoot now for 6 months or so but has been very sore after trimming all summer.

She is better this time than last but still not 100%. It had been 12 weeks since her last trim as she just doesn't grow a lot of hoof. They weren't even long just beginning to slightly chip.

Before the last trim she has been on the form of her life. She is in medium work on mixed terrain and has been incredible all summer.

She had a trim a week ago. Only a light rasp and she isn’t right.

She has consistent heel first landing. And is happy striding out on concrete. But, footy on grass. And clearly feeling her feet in faster paces.

She is fed GWF no starch and has been for a year. And been on pro hoof platinum for 3 months. Forage plus before that. Currently on rougher grazing. She is a ISH but prone to weight gain if on too much grass.

However, she has persistent seedy toe which just isn’t growing out. Tried clean trax, packing it with dettol soaked cotton wool, leaving it to the air. Nothing has shifted it. (This may or may not be related to her footyness but thought it may be worth mentioning!)

Is there anything else I can do to help her?

Making the trimming cycles shorter has just made her lame in the past. Is she just a horse that self trims to a certain extent?

Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[PurBee]

Is there a thrush frog problem deep in the crevice?

Being ok on concrete and footy on grass makes me wonder if either sole or frog is tender. Either sole is perhaps a bit thin, or frog tender - as grass packs more into the hoof so they feel the whole hoof being impacted. Whereas on concrete the load is more hoof wall, rim of sole, and light frog pressure (depending on wall/sole/frog height).

Have just remembered lots of uk grass is hard ground due to the drought conditions - what type of grassy ground is she tender on?

 

[SantaVera]

copper sulphate ( bluestone) ground to powder and mixed with petroleum jelly pushed into the seedy toe area cured my gelding after months of trying other products.

 

[RHM]

Is there a thrush frog problem deep in the crevice?

Being ok on concrete and footy on grass makes me wonder if either sole or frog is tender. Either sole is perhaps a bit thin, or frog tender - as grass packs more into the hoof so they feel the whole hoof being impacted. Whereas on concrete the load is more hoof wall, rim of sole, and light frog pressure (depending on wall/sole/frog height).

Have just remembered lots of uk grass is hard ground due to the drought conditions - what type of grassy ground is she tender on?

The ground we cantered on the other day was hard but no where near as hard as it has been. Had very good grass coverage and it had heavy rain on it a couple of days ago. Not soft enough to dent but soft enough to leave impressions.

Frog could be an idea! I religiously clay all the crevices and they have improved but still have a way to go!

 

[RHM]

copper sulphate ( bluestone) ground to powder and mixed with petroleum jelly pushed into the seedy toe area cured my gelding after months of trying other products.

Amazing thank you. I feel like I’ve tried everything but not tried this! Fingers crossed!

 

[Highmileagecob]

Check that your trim isn't taking the wall down to the level of the sole - there should be a little wall left proud to prevent all weight being taken on the soles. Regarding the seedy toe, it may be time to call in the vet and obtain terramycin foot rot spray. Check the frog by pushing and pressing all over looking for soft, mushy areas, check for abscess tracks (we have had a run of them in the past month) and treat any areas around the frog that remain damp looking. Is there any history of poor hoof placing or impending navicular, hence the transition to barefoot? You could be seeing transitional changes to the internal hoof structure if this is the case. Maybe boots and pads for a while might aid comfort. Hope you manage to sort it.

 

[RHM]

Check that your trim isn't taking the wall down to the level of the sole - there should be a little wall left proud to prevent all weight being taken on the soles. Regarding the seedy toe, it may be time to call in the vet and obtain terramycin foot rot spray. Check the frog by pushing and pressing all over looking for soft, mushy areas, check for abscess tracks (we have had a run of them in the past month) and treat any areas around the frog that remain damp looking. Is there any history of poor hoof placing or impending navicular, hence the transition to barefoot? You could be seeing transitional changes to the internal hoof structure if this is the case. Maybe boots and pads for a while might aid comfort. Hope you manage to sort it.

Thanks for your reply! The walls don’t look flush to the sole but they are very close!

I will ask vets about the spray!

No soft/mushy areas on frog, nice and dry and have really begun opening up more recently. We have had loads of abscesses on the yard so will check for that too!

She was shod when I bought her though they just shod her for the sale, she was barefoot in all her videos (this was over two years ago). So I kept shoes on and have periodically given her breaks over winter. This winter she was having melenomas removed so thought May as well pull shoes and she hasn’t had them on since. Her feet do deteriorate when shod, and this is the best her frogs have looked since I’ve owned her. Does make me think there might be something else going on though.

Thanks for your suggestions, certainly food for thought!

 

[PurBee]

Ill second the copper sulphate solution - love the stuff for any gaps and areas liable to grow yukky microbes.

The ground doesnt sound too hard or soft.
I wonder if frog height is still adjusting to barefoot. Sometimes, shoes are whipped off, walls brought down to level and there’s a protruding frog. (Some trimmer trim the frog to height of new wall and the frog is sore)
The frog can grow more fleshy to accomodate the added shoes. If the frog protrudes above hoof wall height unshod, then its like us having shoe pads in our shoes in the middle of our feet pushing up. The frog is cushioning the pedal bone so a bigger than idea frog will push on P3 more without shoes, than with.

Softer ground can highlight a frog size issue moreso than harder surfaces, like concrete due to sinking in more.

If you get a ruler and place it across the width of the foot, the ruler should hold level. Touching walls and frog level. If the ruler wobbles on the frog, the frog is higher than the walls and too big.
The solution to new barefoot horses isnt to hack the frog down to level as its a calloused part of the hoof, taking off the whole thickness of callous can make them sore. Its best to leave some wall height, to match frog, and shave frog 1mm each trim. The frog usually packs down dense on its own, but depending on the height of the wall to frog does depend how much the trimmer takes off wall/frog.

Ive seen some examples of trimmers take walls down to exactly sole plane. Then roll the wall heavily - leaving the horse loading the edge of its sole, with no wall engagement. This technique is necessary when dealing with laminitis and hoof wall pain, and extreme wall flaring areas, but oftentimes will leave a newly barefoot horse sore.
Ive had better transition success and adjustment of my horses feet when i’ve left a 3mm protrusion of wall, higher than the sole.
As youve said this recent trim was just a shave, it has me considering that the wall height, even if minimal, is necessary for your horse, at this moment.
Its amazing how a few mm of trim can make all the difference to their comfort.

The bars, their size, shape and height, can also impact comfort. They dont want to protrude above hoof wall, but also dont want to be over-grown and bent over onto the sole.
Some trimmers have varying philosophies of ”i always do this” or “never do that” but each situation/environment/work of horse is different so the trimmer has to allow for these so the horse is comfortable.

It sounds like you have foot nutrition feed angle covered so should be having a tough hoof growing. 6 months isnt long for barefoot, if years in shoes especially, so go easy - perhaps its worth getting some boots for riding while the hooves toughen up during transition?
Many on here use ‘hoof boutique’ - they do size guides, rental, trials Of various types of riding boots and will help you figure out the best type for your horse.

Pete Ramey has a good website with articles and plenty of pictures detailing wall/sole/frog/bar preferences for barefoot horses. A great site to learn for all, due to his excellent clear explanations.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'd recommend getting a set of foot balance x rays to check that all is in order.

Thrush could indeed contribute to or cause the footiness.

Re the seedy toe, it could be that it is so ingrained and high up that topical treatments are not getting in far enough. My homebred mare as a youngster had a seedy toe which reached up nearly as high as the coronet band. The vet came to dremel it out, and had to go in far higher than he was expecting to get all the crud out. She did grow it out in the end, though.

 

[RHM]

Ill second the copper sulphate solution - love the stuff for any gaps and areas liable to grow yukky microbes.

The ground doesnt sound too hard or soft.
I wonder if frog height is still adjusting to barefoot. Sometimes, shoes are whipped off, walls brought down to level and there’s a protruding frog. (Some trimmer trim the frog to height of new wall and the frog is sore)
The frog can grow more fleshy to accomodate the added shoes. If the frog protrudes above hoof wall height unshod, then its like us having shoe pads in our shoes in the middle of our feet pushing up. The frog is cushioning the pedal bone so a bigger than idea frog will push on P3 more without shoes, than with.

Softer ground can highlight a frog size issue moreso than harder surfaces, like concrete due to sinking in more.

If you get a ruler and place it across the width of the foot, the ruler should hold level. Touching walls and frog level. If the ruler wobbles on the frog, the frog is higher than the walls and too big.
The solution to new barefoot horses isnt to hack the frog down to level as its a calloused part of the hoof, taking off the whole thickness of callous can make them sore. Its best to leave some wall height, to match frog, and shave frog 1mm each trim. The frog usually packs down dense on its own, but depending on the height of the wall to frog does depend how much the trimmer takes off wall/frog.

Ive seen some examples of trimmers take walls down to exactly sole plane. Then roll the wall heavily - leaving the horse loading the edge of its sole, with no wall engagement. This technique is necessary when dealing with laminitis and hoof wall pain, and extreme wall flaring areas, but oftentimes will leave a newly barefoot horse sore.
Ive had better transition success and adjustment of my horses feet when i’ve left a 3mm protrusion of wall, higher than the sole.
As youve said this recent trim was just a shave, it has me considering that the wall height, even if minimal, is necessary for your horse, at this moment.
Its amazing how a few mm of trim can make all the difference to their comfort.

The bars, their size, shape and height, can also impact comfort. They dont want to protrude above hoof wall, but also dont want to be over-grown and bent over onto the sole.
Some trimmers have varying philosophies of ”i always do this” or “never do that” but each situation/environment/work of horse is different so the trimmer has to allow for these so the horse is comfortable.

It sounds like you have foot nutrition feed angle covered so should be having a tough hoof growing. 6 months isnt long for barefoot, if years in shoes especially, so go easy - perhaps its worth getting some boots for riding while the hooves toughen up during transition?
Many on here use ‘hoof boutique’ - they do size guides, rental, trials Of various types of riding boots and will help you figure out the best type for your horse.

Pete Ramey has a good website with articles and plenty of pictures detailing wall/sole/frog/bar preferences for barefoot horses. A great site to learn for all, due to his excellent clear explanations.

Yes her frog is currently protruding higher than her walls. Never would have considered that a problem, great flag!

Think boots might be a good idea. Will give her a chance to grow some more hoof too. I will have a look at that website! It’s an absolute minefield. I’ve been so spoilt with my other horse, he came out of the womb rock crunching so never gave it this much thought before!

 

[Highmileagecob]

There is a video on line 'Cavallo Barefoot Trim' where a farrier takes you step by step through a classic barefoot trim, pointing out why he did this and why he left that. You might find it useful to compare your set of hooves. And yeah, it is a minefield!

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

There is a very useful FB group called "Barefoot Horse Owners Group UK" which (presuming you ARE in the UK!!) you might find a helpful place to be able to ask a barefoot-specific question such as this.

Do you use a farrier for your trim, or an Equine Podiatrist (EP)??

Whichever, I would go back and talk to them as whilst one might expect footiness when the hoof will be more porous such as in the winter months, I wouldn't expect it now with the dry arid conditions we've currently got.