For Endymion - natural predation of foxes

[Ereiam_jh]

"For the 1000000000th time. Foxes were never killed by extinct predators. Wolves, lynx, bears all kill BIG GAME - like deer. Why on earth would they eat tiny little foxes. Any ecologist will tell you this. "

Really Endymion?

Journal of Zoology

Vol. 270 Issue 4 Page 657 December 2006


Lynx (Lynx lynx) killing red foxes (Vulpes vulpes) in boreal Sweden – frequency and population effects

J. O. Helldin1, O. Liberg1 & G. Glöersen2
Abstract

We studied the frequency and pattern of lynx Lynx lynx predation on red foxes Vulpes vulpes in boreal Sweden by the radio tracking of foxes and the snow tracking of lynx. We also assessed the population trend of red foxes after the re-establishment of lynx in the region, based on various population indices. Fifty per cent of recorded fox mortalities in the radio-tracking study (four of eight) were lynx kills. Adult-sized foxes killed by lynx during radio tracking were in normal condition and of prime age, and were killed after the assumed annual population bottleneck. Albeit based on a small number of kills, this pattern may suggest that lynx predation, at least to some extent, is additive to other mortality in foxes. The annual lynx predation rate was 14% on radio-tracked foxes and 4% on snow-tracked foxes. The population indices of foxes in the main study area decreased by about 10% annually during the study period. The population decrease could potentially be explained by lynx predation alone, but we acknowledge some alternative explanations. Our results point out the possibility that red fox populations can be significantly limited by allowing lynx populations to recover.

 

[endymion]

Well done E but that is a different country, to prove lynx had any effect on fox pops in the U.K you would need to first look at how many lynx we had and what they're main prey animal was.

The modern convention is that lynx did not control foxes here.

Try Rackham, he's quite good.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

I'm not sure the country makes that much difference. Its not like british people not eating horses. It's the same two species in similar conditions.

You stated that lynx do not kill and eat foxes, that they will only kill and eat big game. You're wrong lynx eat foxes. In fact they eat them in large numbers as the study clearly shows.

You stated that ANY ecologist would tell me that lynx will not kill and eat foxes.

Show an ecologist who will tell me that. Show me a scientific study that shows that lynx did not kill and eat foxes in the UK.

You also asked why a wolf would eat an animal that small. Wolves eat fish, are they bigger than foxes?

Could you point out Rackhams concusion that lynx did not kill animals as small as foxes?

 

[Ereiam_jh]

Diet of Eurasian lynx, Lynx lynx, in the boreal forest of southeastern Norway: the relative importance of livestock and hares at low roe deer density

John Odden2, 3 , John D. C. Linnell1 and Reidar Andersen1, 4

(1) Norwegian Institute for Nature Research, Tungasletta 2, 7485 Trondheim, Norway
(2) Norwegian Institute for Nature Research, Dronningens gt. 3, P.O. Box 736 Sentrum, N-0105 Oslo, Norway
(3) Hedmark College, Evenstad, 2480 Koppang, Norway
(4) Department of Biology, Norwegian University of Science and Technology, 7491 Trondheim, Norway

Received: 19 December 2005 Accepted: 22 May 2006 Published online: 4 July 2006

Abstract The year-round food habits of lynx were studied using radio-telemetry and snow-tracking in the boreal forest of southeastern Norway. The main objectives of the study were to clarify the importance of domestic sheep and small prey species in the diet of lynx in an area with a very low density of roe deer. During the period 1995–1999, we found 193 scats and 358 kills made by lynx. Our results indicate that roe deer were the most common prey species (contributing to 83 and 34% of the biomass consumed in winter and summer, respectively), although a wide range of other species were also found, including mountain hares, tetranoids, red foxes, domestic sheep, wild reindeer, and even moose. Most of the diet was obtained by predation, although we did document several cases of scavenging. Roe deer were more important in the diet in winter than in summer, perhaps because they were easier to locate in winter as they clustered around feeding sites. In summer, domestic sheep and small prey increased in importance. Despite the very low density of roe deer in this study area, lynx seemed to still specialise on them, although domestic sheep did constitute a significant amount to their diet, especially for males and yearlings. However, the contribution of sheep to summer diet was far from that expected if their relative density was considered.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

Oh and regarding wolves hunting technique that you have stated elsewhere would never have involved an extened chase:

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/behavior/Spring2003/Bergeron/hunting.htm

5) CHASE - This is an extension of the rush, where the wolf either gets within striking distance and may attack, or falls behind and will give up the chase altogether. Wolves will sometime chase their prey for miles, but more commonly, chases are short sprints.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

Your previous statement that wolves would not chase for extened periods is more rubbish:

http://home.globalcrossing.net/~brendel/wolf.html

Wolves generally hunt in packs consisting of all the adults and yearlings that are not guarding the pups, as they require several wolves to efficiently and safely bring down the large prey which they pursue. Each wolf hunt is a dynamic affair, which varies on circumstance, prey type, pack composition and size. The hunt is apparently not a complex strategic affair, in general they simply outrun the prey species, drag it down and tear at it until it is too weak to fend off the pack. Prey is located by chance encounter, airborne scent or following a fresh scent trail on the ground or in the snow. The pack generally stalks prey, when conditions allow, to get as close as possible and save energy. The stalk also allows the wolves to evaluate the overall condition of the prey species and identify any individually showing signs of weakness or distress. The chase may cover as little as 100 m, or extend beyond 5000 m on some occasions, with successful hunts occurring in about 30% of the attempts. The success rates in hunting vary greatly within the wolf's range, with some areas showing hunting success rates in excess of 50%. If the object of the pursuit turns out to be a large and healthy individual, which stands it's ground, the pack will sometimes retreat not risking an attack unless they are extremely hungry.

 

[endymion]

never said wolves would not chase for extended periods I said wolves would not chase FOXES for extended periods. Do you just make stuff up?????Read your own post it says LARGE prey. It also says they chase the prey until it is too weak to fend off the pack at which point they tear it apart. This is the ancestor of hounds, dont you pros claim it just nips tham on the back of the neck??

You really should read these things before you copy and paste them, shooting yourself in the foot in the process.


I'm trying to revise for a bleeding exam i have tommorrow morning do you think you could just post one thing at a time so i can reply? I havent got time to read a freakin thesis!

Please leave it at these posts until tommorrow afternoon and I will be more than happy to have a long scientific debate with you which will make a nice change from your usual posts!

 

[Ereiam_jh]

What you said was that wolves do not chase for an extended period because it uses too much energy. They do.

You also said that neither wolves, lynx or bears would eat a fox. They do.

You said that they would not eat anything so small. They do.

On all counts you are wrong.

Wolves generally pursue lage prey such as deer. They will also hunt and eat something as small as a fish or insects.

I'm sorry if you can't deal with all these things at the same time. Just read one at a time and then come back to it later.

I hope your exam goes better for you than your debating.

 

[endymion]

no no no no no.

I said wolves do not chase foxes. I have posted several times (and I will find them for you) that the reason wolves do not eat foxes is BECAUSE they chase for long periods making a fox chase not worth their while.

Bear do not eat foxes on a regular basis making them irrelevant as population controllers of foxes.

As far as I have read lynx did not exert any control of foxes in this country, this was read from Rackham and fox ecology papers. I will look into the question of lynx further but I will refuse to debate with you unless you stop putting words into my mouth.

Just when I thought you were finally taking a good approach to debating you spoil it by being juvenile.

In future please quote ALL references to my posts that you wish use as I will not respond otherwise.

 

[Hercules]

Endymon,

Dry your eyes princess and open a can of 'harden up'. Your pitiful backtracking and weasel words fool none.

For your sake, I hope that your examiners take more pity on you than those who have experienced and understand the realities (not theory) of wildlife.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"I said wolves do not chase foxes."

I suspect that depends on:

a) how hungry the wolf is and
b) how long the chase need be

I'd go for miles to get a burger if I was hungry enough. I'd pop next door for one even if I was just a little peckish.

The point I was making as you know is that wolves will select weak prey because catching them takes less effort. Moreover strong prey will tend to escape the wolf because they are fitter and or the wolf doesn't bother. This is why a weakened fox whether through old age, injury, or disease is highly likely to get mopped up by a predator. Being caught and killed by a predator is a better death than one through disease.

The sort of hunting I would like to see would echo the balance of nature as far as possible by giving fit foxes the best chance of survival and weak foxes the best chance of being caught.

Present day hunting with dogs is not perfect in this respect. Fox hunts are not able to intentionally select weak sick foxes in the way the wolf does and they lack the ability to stalk prior to rushing and chasing during which time the wolf is able to asses it's prey. However it is better in this regard than any other means of killing wild mammals that we have. This is because it involves a competitive chase during which strong foxes are more likely to escape than weak ones.

Personally I don't think the overall numerical fox population needs controlling, you agree with this.

I haven't been talking about control of overall fox numbers by lynx. I have no idea to what extent this happened and nor I suspect have you as it was so long in the past. I've been talking about sick old and injured foxes being taken out by predators.

Here's the reference allthough inspite of your request I'm not going to provide them ALL:

------------------------------------------
"these animals would soon die of natural causes anyway."

No they won't they will die through starvation and disease. These are not natural causes, old and sick animals including foxes would naturally be killed by the predators which we have removed. Starvation and disease are uncommon deaths in a naturally balanced ecosystem.

Furthermore these 'natural causes' have a far worse welfare effect than being caught and killed by dogs.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthreaded.php/Cat/0/Number/1628815/page//vc/1

--------------------------------------------

You will note that it is at the start of a line of posts that ends with you saying:
-----------------------------------------
"We were discussing population control and I said that wolves ect picking off a sick or diseased fox does NOT constitute population control.

Sometimes Giles i think you live in a complete fantasy world. "

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthreaded.php/Cat/0/Number/1629933/page//vc/1
----------------------------------------

I'm not 'living in a fantasy world'. If you actually READ my post you will see this.

You stated in a highly condescending manner that lynx, wolves and bears would not catch and eat foxes. I have no idea about bears, but lynx and wolves most definitely do catch and kill foxes. Not in this country, bevccause there aren't any, but in other similar countries. If there were sufficient numbers here then they would catch and kill foxes. They would also tend to target older and weaker foxes and this would benefit the overall welfare of the fox population.

 

[endymion]

Ok then, prove I'm backtracking and quote these comments Giles claims I've made about wolves not chasing for prolonged periods.

You are just anther pro living in a fantasy world with chronic denial.

.....and jumping on someone else's bandwagon. If you want to debate add your own thoughts!

 

[Ereiam_jh]

I think he might have been referring to the fact that you denied that wolves and lynx caught and ate foxes at all but now seem to be talking about whether or not they controlled fox numbers.

Do you need references to your posts in order to reply?

 

[Hercules]

Endythrob,

I care not for your utopian outlook on wildlife, but my thoughts are as follows:

The fox is vermin that needs to be controlled.
Weak and old foxes are regularly killed by hunts.
The fit foxes exercise their 'fight or flight' instinct (as a result of being the quarry species of many carnivores throughout evolution).
Hunting with hounds is the most selective and humane way of dealing with foxes, both sick and fit.
Fox hunting is not all about killing the fox, but also dispersal.
Being a wild animal is a hard life. Live wth it.

I jump on noones bandwagon and am certainly not in denial. My knowledge and opinions are based on over 30 years of hunting, conservation and wildlife management. As far as denial goes, I have hunted 3 times this week. The fox has been killed on every occasion - all within the legislation that your sort supported.

I think that it is the great unwashed that are in denial. After all, subscriptions for hunting are up, public support for hunting continues to increase and no hunt has folded. Yet your lot claim that the Act is working.

I laugh at you.

 

[CARREG]

Aaaawwwww....Endys throwing a hissy...lol...lol...lol................Carreg

 

[Eaglefalconer]

I have friends im Wyoming that i have got to no from hunting with sighthounds/falconry.
Wolves will hunt down and attempt to take out and eat the competition,for example Coyotes in Yellowstone have had their populations reduced by over 70% by the reintroduced wolf packs,they hunt them down and kill/eat them,the same with a little Red Fox!
Also my friends that hunt Coyotes with sight/scenthounds,i asked if they hunt fox and they dont as any foxes that turn up in the area are preyed upon by coyotes so foxes are absent due to coyotes!

 

[Ereiam_jh]

Exactly.

Broad brush statements about the fox being an apex predator are too simple.

Any animal gets killed and eaten if it gets weak enough. I'd imagine a sick wolf left behind by the pack could well get taken out by theose coyotes.

I believe Eagles will also kill foxes?

 

[Ereiam_jh]

Ps, they say we must all drag hunt but drag hunting with sight hounds is greyhound racing isn't it? And they're against that too!

 

[Eaglefalconer]

Yes Golden Eagles in the wild will prey on foxes,and i have an imprint male Golden that has taken two in this his first season.I was out hawking hares at both times and something bigger and redder flushed instead and of he went with unbound enthusiasm!,hes also taken a Muntjac before December.
The Turkic tribes of the Steppes of central Asia fly female Golden eagles from the saddle at Fox and also Wolves,i have the links and vhs to prove it
Roe deer are also taken in the wild and trained state and ive seen it in the flesh!,also i have good footage of wild goldens preying on adult Chamoix!

 

[Eaglefalconer]

Also my friend in Wyoming that hunts coyotes with his hounds knows one of the rangers in Yellowstone national park and he carried out research on wolf preditation on coyotes,almost 70% of the coyote population was reduced within the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone,some wolves had such a dislike for their lesser canine cousins that they would avidly hunt and pursue them when not hungaryand not always just for food,and these coyotes were fit and healthy specimens

 

[jerryboy]

As far as denial goes, I have hunted 3 times this week. The fox has been killed on every occasion - all within the legislation that your sort supported.

Would you care to tell us all which hunt(s) killed the foxes and which exemption they were using?

 

[Ereiam_jh]

I hunt illegally by myself, don't kill the deer, don't take advantage of any exemption as I have two many dogs and no gun.

Hope that helps.

 

[peakpark]

Jerryboy, why do you want to know the name of the hunt(s)?

 

[Ereiam_jh]

Because he's a grass?

 

[wurzel]

Jesus Jerkoff !!!

You are useless!

Is that the best you can do?


Ask LACS, they know everything.

http://www.league.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=867


Here is one. Minehead Harriers and the Rat hunting exemption.

I laugh at you.

 

[jerryboy]

I am glad that I can make you laugh Fagass. That cheers me up no end.

Saturday night and you are not down the pub regaling all with your tales of mischief and law-breaking. Thay must be as bored with you as I am......

 

[wurzel]

The night is young Jerry !!

I don't think they would be impressed. They are all criminals.

Why don't you come and find out one night?

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"Thay must be as bored with you as I am"

You're demonstrating that by the fact that you're staying in and having a converstion with him on the internet.

 

[wurzel]

I took your advice Jerryboy...

A few pints down the Royal Oak at Luxborough.....full to the rafters with criminals.

Still, nice pint of Rich's boy !


Oh. I forgot to ask, ever been satg hunting?

 

[jerryboy]

I took your advice Jerryboy...

A few pints down the Royal Oak at Luxborough.....full to the rafters with criminals.

Still, nice pint of Rich's boy !


Oh. I forgot to ask, ever been satg hunting?

Never been satg hunting. Is it good fun?