For everyone who thinks their horse is being naughty etc........

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JillA

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Watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OInizngxPk

Ben Hart is a highly respected top class horseman, used to do clicker training but nowadays uses a more generalised but empathetic version based on the nature of the animal he is dealing with, and is highly respected. Well worth listening to what he says and then ponder on whether you might be anthropomorphising and putting words into your horse's mouth :)
If you can look at it from your horse's point of view you will get better and better as a horse person and train your horse better and much more easily. I know I did.
 
When he came here a few years ago he was at pains to point out he no longer EXCLUSIVELY used clicker. I imagine, like most good horsemen he retains it as a tool in his tool box but didn't want to have people think of him as the clicker training man. He didn't use it once when he was demo-ing here.
 
That was the end of the excellent talk Ben gave at the Equine Behaviour Forum's annual seminar last September in Myerscough College. The talk was titled "Walking the talk: the ethics of equine training".
 
I would like to see the whole of the talk. I think that attributing the way a horse behaves down to the fact that it is a 'flight' animal is too simplistic.
 
I do think the missing link may be their need for leadership, as any herd animal - they generally prefer to follow but someone has to lead. Did he cover that in the whole talk fburton?
 
My pony was being difficult when I tried to mount last weekend. I took off and adjusted his saddle, then checked his bridle etc while a woman on my yard was screeching at me to smack him and get on with it. Once everything was adjusted he stood lovely while I got on. I smiled smuggly at the lady and told her he wasnt naughty, just telling me he wasnt happy/comfortable :D Rather that than him chuck me off. In my eyes my boy is never naughty, just expressing his opinion.
 
My boy is definitely naughty. It stems from impatience - he doesn't like to stand still, whether it's waiting for cars to pass, waiting to cross the road, pulling in for a cyclist, waiting to be unloaded from the lorry, standing in the box for too long, waiting for his feed... That is his character. Even after massive improvements in schooling, sorting teeth, getting chiro, getting Physio and sorting saddles and feet, he is just impatient.

With lots of work, I can ask him to stand still and he will, but I try equally not to ask needlessly or too often or for too long, so as not to encourage him to disobey.
 
my naughty pony is as far as a tiger from a flight animal he attacks first asks questions later and no he has never had a bad day in his life he has always lived here and has been treated exceptionally well as the one time I succumbed, against my better judgement, to someone saying to smack him he nearly killed them so never again. He has little man syndrome and thinks if he can get you he will that is anthropomorphizing but it seems to fit the bill
Still its not an issue here he is loved has firm boundaries and is a very happy pony 99.9999% of the time as he basically lives like a pony has food, water, grazing,company and love. He is a bit of an attention seeker though so you have to acknowledge him or he becomes aggressive
 
JillA said:
I do think the missing link may be their need for leadership, as any herd animal - they generally prefer to follow but someone has to lead. Did he cover that in the whole talk fburton?
Click to expand...

A friend arranged a training day with Ben last summer at her place. He did some practical stuff around long reining and de spooking as well as discuss what problems we had and what might be the cause. I got corrected when I was leading friends horse through various obstacles and flappy scary things because I adopted my 'think big and walk on with confidence ' as the point of the exercise was to allow the horse to explore each scary thing in his own time. I'm still not sure that was the right way but Ben said by leading the horse I was taking charge and horse wasn't figuring things for himself ? The day was useful though and he's a nice man and easy to be around. And does not criticise other trainers methods either.
 
doriangrey said:
I would like to see the whole of the talk. I think that attributing the way a horse behaves down to the fact that it is a 'flight' animal is too simplistic.
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So do I and over time in our care they have less and less reason to be flight animals .
Some will stay with their riders even when flight would make good sense .
Being good at flight is no longer going to ensure your survival and ability to breed is not based on it so it would be logical that over time the instinct will become less important .
 
JillA said:
Watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OInizngxPk

Ben Hart is a highly respected top class horseman, used to do clicker training but nowadays uses a more generalised but empathetic version based on the nature of the animal he is dealing with, and is highly respected. Well worth listening to what he says and then ponder on whether you might be anthropomorphising and putting words into your horse's mouth :)
If you can look at it from your horse's point of view you will get better and better as a horse person and train your horse better and much more easily. I know I did.
Click to expand...

We are great Ben fans in this house and were only talking about him earlier tonight.

He is wonderful to watch, but only if you are used to watching subtle signs. His knowledge of learning theory is vast and he has the great gift of being able to convey that knowledge to other people.

He is the only trainer I would ever fully trust with my very sensitive girlie.

(He is also veeery easy on the eye ;) )
 
khalswitz said:
My boy is definitely naughty. It stems from impatience - he doesn't like to stand still, whether it's waiting for cars to pass, waiting to cross the road, pulling in for a cyclist, waiting to be unloaded from the lorry, standing in the box for too long, waiting for his feed... That is his character. Even after massive improvements in schooling, sorting teeth, getting chiro, getting Physio and sorting saddles and feet, he is just impatient.

With lots of work, I can ask him to stand still and he will, but I try equally not to ask needlessly or too often or for too long, so as not to encourage him to disobey.
Click to expand...

I would say you are talking about a horse living on adrenaline, whether from stress or magnesium deficiency. If you read Mark Rashid, he points out that in survival terms, no prey animal can afford to waste energy he might need at any moment to escape a predator, and much as they live relatively pampered lives these days, their survival techniques are still hard wired into them. Being put in a position where they use up too much energy is a really useful aversion therapy if you have a horse who needs to learn not to do something - put them to work each time they do the unwanted behaviour, such as failing to stand still to be mounted. It works and doesn't carry any fear with it.
We have had horse like that here - when you get them to relax, they are much different - my own horse, home bred so no fear history, was like that and responded really well to supplementing with magnesium.
The leadership issue is another stressor - no horse can relax if he is having to be on alert and making decisions all the time. If he can find a reliable consistent trust worthy leader (i.e. you) to do that for him, he can then relax.
 
JillA said:
I do think the missing link may be their need for leadership, as any herd animal - they generally prefer to follow but someone has to lead. Did he cover that in the whole talk fburton?
Click to expand...
Surprisingly, perhaps, no he didn't! The talk was more around the topic of ethics, encouraging us to think about why we judge some training practices to be ethical and other unethical.

I wish he had talked about leadership. It's a very interesting subject with a variety of opinions out there!
 
JillA said:
I would say you are talking about a horse living on adrenaline, whether from stress or magnesium deficiency. If you read Mark Rashid, he points out that in survival terms, no prey animal can afford to waste energy he might need at any moment to escape a predator, and much as they live relatively pampered lives these days, their survival techniques are still hard wired into them. Being put in a position where they use up too much energy is a really useful aversion therapy if you have a horse who needs to learn not to do something - put them to work each time they do the unwanted behaviour, such as failing to stand still to be mounted. It works and doesn't carry any fear with it.
We have had horse like that here - when you get them to relax, they are much different - my own horse, home bred so no fear history, was like that and responded really well to supplementing with magnesium.
The leadership issue is another stressor - no horse can relax if he is having to be on alert and making decisions all the time. If he can find a reliable consistent trust worthy leader (i.e. you) to do that for him, he can then relax.
Click to expand...

I don't agree with that, how much energy does a prey animal expend during the breeding season? The males expend nearly all energy fighting in their desire to breed/pass on their genetics. There are many motivations to behaviour (especially in humans) and flight imo is a very small part of it. It seems so easy now to say that horses are deficient in minerals etc and that will solve the problem. Most mares are denied the opportunity to reproduce. I don't mean that everyone should be rushing out now to put their mares in foal - but they are entire females being denied what is a natural part of their existence. Is it possible that marish behaviour comes from that very denial? Who knows .. because it is never that simple.
 
Welll what he says makes sense if you are prepared to sit and take notice of your horse. I've a 9 years old mare, owned her from day 1, she damaged her back when she got frightened by OH driving tractor near her and she jumped thru stable window demolition job big time, and damaged her back but she has gotten use to it and no longer takes notice. But she hates the noise of gunshots whether its rabbit shooting or the pheasant shoots or once a month clay pigeon. But when she hears gunshots, she freaks out, you can't keep her in the stable as she tries to climb out, when you let her out(can't lead her) she goes ape **** galloping up and down till you can get her into her paddock. My OH says a bullet, but that makes things easy for him, she has done this from a foal, so is inbreed in her DNA or that I've been too easy on her like my OH says I've been.??
 
doriangrey said:
I would like to see the whole of the talk. I think that attributing the way a horse behaves down to the fact that it is a 'flight' animal is too simplistic.
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I agree. I think horses are smart enough to be naughty. I know my old tb was cause he was not a biter but if he was in a funny mood he would nip and run away. Then run back and nip again, tryin to play. I could practically hear him laughing as I rolled about and agony lol
 
JillA said:
I would say you are talking about a horse living on adrenaline, whether from stress or magnesium deficiency. If you read Mark Rashid, he points out that in survival terms, no prey animal can afford to waste energy he might need at any moment to escape a predator, and much as they live relatively pampered lives these days, their survival techniques are still hard wired into them. Being put in a position where they use up too much energy is a really useful aversion therapy if you have a horse who needs to learn not to do something - put them to work each time they do the unwanted behaviour, such as failing to stand still to be mounted. It works and doesn't carry any fear with it.
We have had horse like that here - when you get them to relax, they are much different - my own horse, home bred so no fear history, was like that and responded really well to supplementing with magnesium.
The leadership issue is another stressor - no horse can relax if he is having to be on alert and making decisions all the time. If he can find a reliable consistent trust worthy leader (i.e. you) to do that for him, he can then relax.
Click to expand...

Magnesium makes him worse, so no deficiency there (did six months on a calmer that made him more hyper!). Also really doubting its stress, except maybe in the stabling/feed scenarios as he does hate being boxed and loves his food, so bein impatient about them is understandable. At the moment, he is at the most calm and relaxed to work he has ever been, and seeing a huge improvement all the time, but he just doesn't like standing still when mounted.

I did forget to mention that he is an exracer too, which does add to the problem - he's never been taught to. He does now stand when asked, but doesn't like to stand for long. And the working him when he doesn't stand technique doesn't work!! Have tried but he actually wants to be moving and doing something so it just rewards him moving off. It is just that he is impatient and wants to be off!

In terms of leadership, he definitely sees me as a leader, on the ground and ridden - on the ground, especially when out competing but to a lesser degree on the yard too, he is constantly watching where I am and gets anxious if were away and I leave him. Ridden, he does things I ask even when scary, and shows to be markedly more insecure when a different rider gets on. He just doesn't like to stand still!
 
JillA said:
When he came here a few years ago he was at pains to point out he no longer EXCLUSIVELY used clicker. I imagine, like most good horsemen he retains it as a tool in his tool box but didn't want to have people think of him as the clicker training man. He didn't use it once when he was demo-ing here.
Click to expand...
Ah, I misunderstood your post. :)
 
Khalswitz ..have you tried food treats as a reward for doing what you want? Am asking because I had major issues with an ex racer share I had who would take off as soon as you got on and fidgeted the whole time if you tried to make him stand. Using food treats worked really well on him.
There's been some research done too about whether physical rewards ..scratching or stroking versus food rewards worked better with horses. The food rewards were found to be far more effective.
 
TrasaM said:
Khalswitz ..have you tried food treats as a reward for doing what you want? Am asking because I had major issues with an ex racer share I had who would take off as soon as you got on and fidgeted the whole time if you tried to make him stand. Using food treats worked really well on him.
There's been some research done too about whether physical rewards ..scratching or stroking versus food rewards worked better with horses. The food rewards were found to be far more effective.
Click to expand...

Food is very effective for him, until he is stressed. When stressed out he goes on hunger strike, and at shows etc if he's busy looking round he won't touch a treat. At home it works well, but as soon as you don't have one he wants to be off doing something else...

I've tried a lot if approaches with him over the last 15 months, and he has improved a lot and generally stands to mount at home, but if I take too long he will get annoyed. He is the first horse I've owned who has been SO tricky to work out what makes him tick, and how to motivate him, and we've gotten so far, but I've had to just learn to compromise and accept that we ask him to stand around waiting as little as we can.
 
You need to remember that racehorses usually have their riders legged up while they are moving, so you are asking him to relearn something which is quite ingrained. For "food rewards" have you found something he would turn himself inside out for - with mine it's Polos, he will do anything for one and they are handy to keep in a pocket. Look up clicker training on Youtube or similar and then discard the clicker, start with just standing and shape from there. Lots of people have done it.
 
JillA said:
You need to remember that racehorses usually have their riders legged up while they are moving, so you are asking him to relearn something which is quite ingrained. For "food rewards" have you found something he would turn himself inside out for - with mine it's Polos, he will do anything for one and they are handy to keep in a pocket. Look up clicker training on Youtube or similar and then discard the clicker, start with just standing and shape from there. Lots of people have done it.
Click to expand...

To make it more tricky, I'm limited in what treats I can give him as he has EPSM, and the sugar makes him much worse... Plus the fussy eater issues he has, and then when he gets excited he won't touch food...

I'm not doubting plenty of people have done it, but with all my efforts we have improved but are no where near sorted. He has a listof problems as long as your arm and they make him tricky to work with. I'm sure an expert could sort him, but I have certainly taken a shot at all of the standard approaches (bar hitting him or getting angry as besides being not his fault he's impatient, he takes very badly to being told off...) and nothing sorts it.
 
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