For those who have bred Warmbloods in the UK...

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tasel

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What passports did your foals get? Did you register them with breed societies? If so... how??

My mare came over from Germany and has the usual pink-papered passport issued by the breed society. Her sire was a licensed stallion and her dam was in the "Hauptstutbuch" of her breed society. My mare herself is branded and was a "premium foal", but that was pretty much the end of what she had to do with the breed society because I bought her at 2.5 yrs old as a potential riding/sports horse, and she was never entered into the Stutbuch.

Now, I just wonder if I wanted to breed her... what would the foal be and what passport would it get, given that entering her into the Stutbbuch now is pretty much near impossible since she is in the UK...
 
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it depends on the stallion of foal but you can register with olderburgh or the anglo european stud book

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Not every German horse is an Oldenburg! So in fact it's no way as limited as that because:

1 If she is a Hannoverian mare you can inform the British Hannoverian Horse Society of this and then attend one of their gradings

2 If she is a Trakehner then you should get in touch with Trakehners GB (aka Trakehner Breeders Fraternity) and the same will apply as far as gradings are concerned

3 Whatever German breed she is you can register and present her for grading with the Warmblood Breeders Studbook UK (the old BWBS)

4 Ditto if you want to go the sports horse route you can do the same with Sport Horse Breeding of Great Britain or Scottish Sports Horse depending on where you live.

5 If you choose any of the studbooks mentioned in 1, 2, 3 or 4 above or the AES (which does not appear to hold mare gradings at present) any foal you breed from your mare will have a passport beginning with the number 826 which identifies it as British-bred. This would not be the case with a foal registered Oldenburg, ZfDP (or KWPN should you wish to go that route) which again is a point that you need to consider.

Personally I would steer clear of ZfDP which is another German studbook that has gradings here as it is really a catch all riding horse studbook set up for horses (usally non wbs or odd mixes and coloureds) that do not qualify for other German studbooks whilst in Germany (this includes wb stallions that have failed to reach a score of 80 in their grading or performance -- the level required by most studbooks -- but have achieved the legal bottom limit of 70). Most horses eligible for ZfDP in Germany (apart from the sub-standard stallions) can usually find a more suitable specific studbook for themselves if they are in the UK.
 
My mare is not an Oldenburg, nor a Hanoverian or a Trakehner.

Her sire is a Holsteiner, her dam is registered Mecklenburg out of a Hanoverian line. She herself is registered Mecklenburg. This mixture of lines is normal in Germany though as most stallions are approved for more than just one studbook. I have known people breeding horses and registering them Oldenburg irrespective of the dam. I was just wondering how it would work here...
 
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My mare is not an Oldenburg, nor a Hanoverian or a Trakehner.

Her sire is a Holsteiner, her dam is registered Mecklenburg out of a Hanoverian line. She herself is registered Mecklenburg. This mixture of lines is normal in Germany though as most stallions are approved for more than just one studbook.

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I would imagien that most people on this forum actually know that, we are just suggesting possible alternatives for you.

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I have known people breeding horses and registering them Oldenburg irrespective of the dam. I was just wondering how it would work here...

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I ahev a feeling that WBS UK would probably be the best route for you ATM from amongst the Uk studbooks from what you say about the mare.
 
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I would imagien that most people on this forum actually know that, we are just suggesting possible alternatives for you.



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Ok, just wanted to clarify as some people I have met in the UK who are not used to Warmbloods at all do not seem to realise that and think a Holsteiner is totally different from a Hanoverian, etc. and then end up thinking she's a crossbred.
shocked.gif


That's also the reason I just call her a German Warmblood as people often get confused about it.
 
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Personally I would steer clear of ZfDP which is another German studbook that has gradings here as it is really a catch all riding horse studbook set up for horses (usally non wbs or odd mixes and coloureds) that do not qualify for other German studbooks whilst in Germany (this includes wb stallions that have failed to reach a score of 80 in their grading or performance -- the level required by most studbooks -- but have achieved the legal bottom limit of 70). Most horses eligible for ZfDP in Germany (apart from the sub-standard stallions) can usually find a more suitable specific studbook for themselves if they are in the UK.

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Sorry, but I have to correct this information as it is misleading and untrue!

The ZfdP Warmblood Stallions listed in Stallion Book 1 have to show performance records as per German Laws.
So, this is either the 70 days performance test done with at least 80 points (incl. age deductions for stallions aged 5 or 6 years) or, when older, performance records in eventing, which are set at a high level for classes and placings.

Stallions that do not show such proof of performance are listed into Stallion Book 2.

The setting up of this stallion book 2 is no specialty of the ZfdP, but had to be set up in Germany to fulfill EU regulations saying that every horse with intact testicles is allowed to produce offspring.

@Tasel: Yes, your mare is a German Warmblood and as her sire is fully licenced and her mare fully registered at main studbook, she is fully eligible for main studbook registration.
 
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Stallions that do not show such proof of performance are listed into Stallion Book 2.

The setting up of this stallion book 2 is no specialty of the ZfdP, but had to be set up in Germany to fulfill EU regulations saying that every horse with intact testicles is allowed to produce offspring.


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But I rather suspect (in fact am sure) that the ZfDP is the only German studbook that comes over here and allows stallions based here that do not meet Stallion Book 1 qualifications to go into its Stallion Book 2 list and then issues papers / passports for their progeny. The KWPN allows progeny of ungraded stallions out of KWPN graded mares to have Reg B papers but this is rather a different issue as here the eligibility comes through the mare rather than the stallion.

Odd that no other German studbook operating here promotes itself to such a client base -- which appears to include a worrying number of failed traditional coloured stallions through its links with ECHA (or am I incorrect there too?).

Also as ZfDP promotes itself as the grading / approval studbook for all breeds that do not have a German studbook of their own, the possibility that its breeding rules will allow it come here and inspect / issue papers on the progeny of failed / unlicenced stallions of our native and rare breeds is also a matter of considerable concern, and is actually against EU studbook law of course. It is also completely un-necessary becuase -- as a result of the same EU law you quote (incorrectly I might add, in fact studbooks are bound to provide registration facilities for any animals that are the result of a mating of an ungraded / unapproved stallion and an ungraded / unapproved mare both with original papers from that studbook which is completely different thing) all studbook PIOs in the UK have to have a Section X faciliity in their registration structure to allow them to fulfill this requirement. BTW, should anyone think that this is a short-cut to 'proper' pedigree papers / passport the legislation also prohibits Section X animals and their offspring and all future generations (should they have any) to be 'progressive' (ie be graded into/ approved for breeding) and thus become part of the main full or part-bred registers of the issuing studbook PIO

So perhaps you could put my mind at ease and tell me that the ZfDP has no pland to take this very contentious route either soon or as part of some long-term plan?
 
Stallion Book 2 stallions can only produce pre-book eligible offspring. Anyhow, if an owner of such stallion decides to have him listed into such a book, so that the offspring gets papers stating the pedigree of the sire - what is the problem with that?
Many British stallions do only have this status as they are not able to present the performance proof as requested by German societies for example.

What is wrong with a pre-book or a stallion book 2. Every breeding association does have these different sections within a specific breed stubook when working as per EU regulations (and so does ZfdP).

As to you mentioning that the ZfdP holds studbooks for other breed as well: Yes, that is true. In fact they hold more than 46 specific breed studbooks. Studbooks of breeds having their origin in other EU-countries are held following the rules of the EU mother studbook (also as per EU regulations).

The ZfdP was asked to come to the U.K. by several breeders and horse owners two years ago. EU regulations make this possible.
It is the breeder and/or the owner of a horse, who decides, which breeding association he/she wants to join.
I personally as a small breeder find EU competition quite attractive.

I would also like you to note that ECHA does not have anything to do with ZfdP. ECHA holds different stud books working under different rules and is no member of the German Horse Federation.

Furthermore, I would like to state, again (as this was deleted in another thread), that the breeding director of the ZfdP is also a well known member of the Trakehnen Stallion Grading Commission.
This might put you a bit on ease regarding the standard of quality ZfdP is known for.

P.S.: BTW I think that this discussion goes a bit offtopic. May I suggest that either we discuss this further in a new thread or by PM?
 
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Stallion Book 2 stallions can only produce pre-book eligible offspring. Anyhow, if an owner of such stallion decides to have him listed into such a book, so that the offspring gets papers stating the pedigree of the sire - what is the problem with that?

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Mainly that there is a misguided belief in this country that all animals with German papers (from whatever studbook) showing two parents and a pedigree MUST be by a graded stallion out of a graded mare. Disabusing them of this (ie telling them the truth about the lack of official studbook approval) can be very difficult -- and heartbreaking for those that think they have bought a top class well-bred animal and then discover that they haven't.

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Many British stallions do only have this status as they are not able to present the performance proof as requested by German societies for example.

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True if you are referring to residential performance tests undertaken at a special stallion testing centre as this is not the way it is usually done here even in the WBFSH member studbooks. But then it is not a requirement in France, Sweden or a number of other successful breeding countries either and even the KWPN have a get-out clause for those that don't want to take that route (Painted Black did it that way as have a number of other top competing stallions).

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What is wrong with a pre-book or a stallion book 2. Every breeding association does have these different sections within a specific breed stubook when working as per EU regulations (and so does ZfdP)

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There is nothing wrong with it as a regsitration route of last resort but encouraging people to put their stallions inthat book when they are not really of suitable breeding quality -- as distinct from being a graded stallion from a studbook that is not one of the main ones recognised by the issuing studbook concerned (which is what is actually designed for) -- is again pretty confusing for both mare owners and people buying the offspring of such matings. The stallion owners involved can be pretty gullible about this too so it can create problems all round.

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As to you mentioning that the ZfdP holds studbooks for other breed as well: Yes, that is true. In fact they hold more than 46 specific breed studbooks. Studbooks of breeds having their origin in other EU-countries are held following the rules of the EU mother studbook (also as per EU regulations).

The ZfdP was asked to come to the U.K. by several breeders and horse owners two years ago. EU regulations make this possible.

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Agreed, any stud book can come here and grade according to its own standards in its country of origin EXCEPT (and this is stipulated in the relevant EU legislation) it is not within these regulations to set up any grading / inspection / registration system covering breeds that are native to/ have their daughter studbook in the country in which the 'foreign' studbook wishes to operate. In the UK this includes all native, M&M and rare breeds (eg Welsh, New Forest, Fells, Dales, Dartmoor, Exmoor, Eriskay, Highland, Shetland, Cleveland Bay, Shire, Suffolk and probably a couple of others that I have overlooked) and should the ZfDP decide to expand into these breeds (some of which it does legitimately represent in Germany due to a lack of an official daughter studbook there) I am sure that DEFRA will take action to instruct it to desist as no derogation on this is acceptable to the UK mother studbooks of the breeds involved.

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It is the breeder and/or the owner of a horse, who decides, which breeding association he/she wants to join.

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Within the limits of the above regulations this is certainly true.

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I personally as a small breeder find EU competition quite attractive.

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Not quite sure what competition it is that you are talking about or what the merits are to a small breeder (as oposed to a large one I mean) but perhaps I am being a bit dim here.

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I would also like you to note that ECHA does not have anything to do with ZfdP. ECHA holds different stud books working under different rules and is no member of the German Horse Federation. Furthermore, I would like to state, again (as this was deleted in another thread), that the breeding director of the ZfdP is also a well known member of the Trakehnen Stallion Grading Commission.
This might put you a bit on ease regarding the standard of quality ZfdP is known for.

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Well, it would if I could see examples of top class stallions in Germany (apart from coloured / palomino / cremello etc ones excluded from the studbooks that don't accept them becuase of their coat colour) that had chosen ZfDP grading as their studbook of first choice, but then perhaps that might not be too easy because of the way studbook aceptance / overstamping works in Germany.

It also does not put my mind at ease about the UK breeds that fall within the 47 studbooks that you mention as they all have very specific breed / type / bloodline approval specifications that are completely dis-similar to anything that the Trakehner Verband requires (much as I admre it as a warmblood studbook and have judged for its daughter studbook in the UK on a couple of occasions at least).

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P.S.: BTW I think that this discussion goes a bit offtopic. May I suggest that either we discuss this further in a new thread or by PM?

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Actually I don't think it is as it began with a query on studbooks operating here and that is still relevant to what we are discussing now.
 
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