Foreign stallions- the only way that British breeding can progress -

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the watcher

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I don't believe this to be true, Ken obviously does.

My view is that we do have good horses, but our systems for promoting them and grading them remain muddled. There is also real apathy at higher political levels, unlike continental Europe that sees more support to businesses promoting what are effectively national studs

What do you think, can we evolve to a stage where we could go it alone with fully UK bred horses, and have this aspect of the breeding an asset?
 
mother_hen - just to clarify : do you mean stallions <u>bred</u> in the UK, who may well (almost certainly will!) carry the blood of continental bloodlines? If so, I think that we are on a steep learning curve, and I can imagine that in 10 years time we will have added a significant number of outstandingly good eventing and SJ stallions to the existing base - that's what the BEF is aiming for. But of course we will still need to draw in the best stallions in Europe (and maybe the US/NA, look at the interest in Hickstead!) to add to what is always going to be a smaller pool, just because of the size of our little island, and the lack of any real government support for our breeding industry
 
Currently i think we need foreign stallions to progress. I agree that it is a numbers game and obviously the uk is never going to be able to breed the number of horses that are bred in Europe, and therefore the number of top quality horses that Europe breeds. But honestly how many horses do you think are bred in the uk that could compare with the 95 horses at the upcoming Fences auction. Personally i dont believe that the uk are breeding enough horses with top potential and this can only be because of the quality of stock being used (mares and stallions). I too would love to see a day when british breeding is of olympic quality, but it is not there yet and so therefore European stallions are nescessary to upgrade the stock until it is. Even then European stallions will probably be nessecary to maintain the quality, mostly because of the variety.
Pls note I am not saying no uk horses are good enough, there are some very good stallions in the uk, just that we are not breeding enough to go around.
 
Yes, to clarify - I actually meant stallions standing (and ideally competing) in the UK, although I accept that their breeding could be continental warmblood, TB from the USA, or Arabs or even Irish Draught.

I do agree that do keep bloodlines healthy and to progress there is the need to draw in from other studbooks, this is nothing new and has gone on for a hundred years or more (I'm not a complete Luddite), however what frustrates me is the perception that having some distinguished names in a horse's background from Holland or Germany somehow guarantees it to be a better animal - many of those are out of very average mares.

A lot of it is simply good PR.
 
I would agree with Motherhen here as far as our capabilities &amp; handicaps go; I certainly don't think we such novices at horsebreeding as is often suggested, and I believe that quality horses are already bred here: but the handicaps are just as described. I would say that anything horsey also carries a stigma of snobbery and is penalised in this country, rather than being encouraged as a recreational asset and a viable rural business.

I do think we are poorly taught when it comes to RIDING our good young horses; we don't seem capable of starting off our young would-be riders as well as they do abroad; maybe this too is a financial thing. Young rider schemes seem to kick in too late, and only for people who are already achieving within the sport, but who are already sometimes disadvantaged in terms of technical skill compared to young continental riders; I wish there were some way to widen access to riding and teach the basics well. This might seem irrelevant in a breeding discussion, but I suspect we "lose" a lot of our good young horses to a lack of competent riders; some are spoiled and more just aren't utilised fully- though of course, finance &amp; opportunity comes into this, too...

As for foreign stallions, I think the more choice the better; its the wide choice and finding the right horse that is the important thing; not where he comes from. However, I suspect that the "right horse" often exists in this country but is unused, because he just isn't marketed effectively and doesn't have the opportunities to prove himself.

Edited to say that Motherhen is right again, I think.
I also think this is borne out by the drift of the warmblood away from the big heavy animals first imported to this country towards something much more like the TB that we started with. So perhaps we were right first time?
 
Depends what you're trying to breed really. I love throughbreds &amp; part breds. For the most part warmbloods leave me cold. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of the talent &amp; ability potential in them, or the superstar factor in a small minority -I am, but if it was as easy as picking a sire &amp; dam with a good performance record I suspect we'd all be doing it !!
My fear is that if we're not careful we'll end up with as many surplus competition horses as there are racehorses, &amp; many single mare owners who are breeding for their own use are going to end up completely overhorsed if they believe that performance potential is the most important thing in a young horse. Obviously for a minority section of the market it is, but the vast majority of horse owners in this country are what could be termed pleasure riders competing at the grassroots end of the spectrum, &amp; the last thing they need is a dirty great fire &amp; smoke billowing warmblood to try &amp; contend with!!
 
I’m with ken on this one.

I also agree with kpoundsbery we need to breed more… the more that goes in at bottom then that comes out at the top, and that our ‘top prospects’ hardly compare.

What rufusbluemoon said about the size of our country the size of our country is just an excuse that we apply to most sports. Is Holland bigger than Britain? No. Do they breed more horses for jumping and dressage than us? Yes. The same applies for Belgium. Not only that but the horses show more potential, are more commercial and are more successful in sport. I can take it another step further. Holstein, a small region in Germany, has a population of 8000 breeding mares and the same applies there. In 2006 the KWPN had 7434 foals registered for show jumping and 4856 for dressage from a total of 14622 mares that were covered (100% AI). In 2003 5012 mares were covered in Oldenburg, even 10 years ago 4113 foals were registered in Oldenburg. How many years before we have 4000 foals registered with the aes? Or another studbook in the UK directed towards jumping eventing or dressage. How many years before British bred horses become successful in international sport? How long until British bred horses become commercial to the rest of Europe and the rest of the world? But what is certain is that by using certain foreign stallions the process will be a lot quicker especially those proven in past and the ones successful in sport. Following fashions isn’t good enough and neither is using substandard mares.

Maybe if the general quality of our standard riding horses improved then so would the quality of our riders at the lower levels and maybe more would progress??? My mum owns a riding school and livery yard where the majority of people never wanted to jump bigger than 1m. We’ve always bought and sold horses as well and over the past few years I would say that level of horses we have sold to liveries has improved significantly and so have the riders enabling them to raise the goals and achieve them. A surplus of warmbloods in my oppinion is a lot less scary than a surplus of tbs! Warmbloods have been bred for centuries for their good temperment and willingness to perform (at any level and any sphere) that’s where the term comes from. Obviously that’s not always the case!
 
the last thing they need is a dirty great fire &amp; smoke billowing warmblood to try &amp; contend with!! which is, of course, what all warmbloods are.
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For the most part warmbloods leave me cold I guess you found 95% of the Olympic equestrian coverage unwatchable then???????????????????????? Well, I've bad news for you. All the HOYS classes will be won by warmbloods and the same will happen at Olympia (except for the shetland derby), every international dressage you're ever going to watch will be one by a warmblood.

ken obviously thinks so yes, along with the entire european breeding community, which is the most successful sport horse production area of the world. Results don't lie.

If you want to start and continue an intelligent debate, please stick to intelligent comments based on fact. You are of course entitled to an opinion, but back it up with cogent arguement rather than a series of anti-foreign rhetoric, and pro tb sentiment. The first two respondants seem to have it nailed, but you'll blame that on them agreeing with me no doubt.
 
im with Ken on this one too,,,how many British bred and born stallions can you count that are talented horses that have made it..? i think id struggle to count i think we need foreign stallions without a doubt to improve british breeding this goes without saying as i keep saying britain has a long way to go to catch up with holland belgium germany ect(i dont think we ever will) though some studs are trying.. if british bred horses are so good why are we always importing horses and will continue to import from abroad we need foreign horses to in our breeding programmes with the right choices we may stand a chance of breeding something special
 
i believe we can catch them up and i'd like to say that we will. it may take 20, 30, 40 years but it is possible.

Chin up!
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Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in a world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it.
Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion.
Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare.


Impossible is potential.
Impossible is temporary.

IMPOSSIBLE IS NOTHING.

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that was very emotional danny. but true.
Would also like to add that i think the british breeding associations have the most work to do before british breeding catches up with the continent. I would love to support the british breed associations but will be taking my mare to a kwpn grading nxt yr
 
why not use foreign bred horses to breed the best competition horse you can.we have done it here in ireland and i have to say that some of my more traditional neighbours turn up their noses at my foals becaus they are "foreign" but they have never had a horse they bred qualify for lanaken and im going to rub it in.cavalier royale never did this country any harm and helped put us back on the map with his fantastic stock which i think only worked so well because it mixed well with the laid back attitude of the irish sport horse mares.his daughters are labelled irish sport horses and they in turn are being covered by the best irish stallions we have available.its just a new mix of blood not an end to the traditional horse.
 
'cogent arguement rather than a series of anti-foreign rhetoric, and pro tb sentiment. The first two respondants seem to have it nailed, but you'll blame that on them agreeing with me no doubt. '

Are you incapable of debating without striking out at people whose opinion might be different to yours? You have everything to gain by defending the European breeding industry, I, on the other hand, have no commercial bias, merely an opinion. I am happy to listen to other opinions, and learn from them.

I do accept that large, big moving warmbloods are currently at the top of the tree in dressage. It would only take a twist of fashion and attitude though for judges to look more sympathetically on lighter framed, more forward moving breeds (as a generalisation before anybody else shoots me down)

Warmbloods are also still in eventing where pressure has resulted in the cross country phase being shortened, which is certainly more to their benefit than any other. Again, an imaginative course builder at a top event who builds for speed and stamina rather than the ability to leap tall buildings with a single bound could overturn a results table.

To clarify, i don't actually dislike warmbloods - or the industry in Europe, I am just frustrated because we, as a nation, do not seem to be able to organise ourselves in the same way and maximise the quality animals we already have.
 
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Depends what you're trying to breed really. I love throughbreds &amp; part breds. For the most part warmbloods leave me cold. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of the talent &amp; ability potential in them, or the superstar factor in a small minority -I am, but if it was as easy as picking a sire &amp; dam with a good performance record I suspect we'd all be doing it !!
My fear is that if we're not careful we'll end up with as many surplus competition horses as there are racehorses, &amp; many single mare owners who are breeding for their own use are going to end up completely overhorsed if they believe that performance potential is the most important thing in a young horse. Obviously for a minority section of the market it is, but the vast majority of horse owners in this country are what could be termed pleasure riders competing at the grassroots end of the spectrum, &amp; the last thing they need is a dirty great fire &amp; smoke billowing warmblood to try &amp; contend with!!

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You'll be glad to know I'm with you all the way Zeb!

Ken is entitled to his opinion that foreign is best as we are that Britain can produce horses just as good too, after all we have done for years and the English Thoroughbred is one of the most successful and consistent horses in the world. Aren't they using them to improve their breeds over there?
There's room for everyone but what I do object to is people trying to ram down my throat that because a horse is foreign, it is better.
That is utter claptrap, they breed a lot of rubbish too, which a lot of the time makes its way over here to be bought by some gullible soul who thinks because it's got a brand and foreign passport, that it is a God given certainty that it is built correctly, will be sound, has a good temperament and is ride-able by all and sundry. Unfortunately, the times those assumptions are misjudged, happens far too often for it to be unusual. That also happens with horses bred here too of course, the foreigners don't have the monopoly on that, I have to admit, but the majority of the British horses seem to be far more adaptable in the jobs they can do and the way they do them and better suited to a run of the mill rider as I am the first to admit I - and many like me, are. A huge amount of us aren't trained as well as people abroad seem to be right from the start, we are more natural riders which is why we like horses that can think for themselves and not fall apart at the seams if the aids aren't correct or they're not held together enough. This is another reason we can have problems with some warm bloods which almost need a dictator of a rider while our 'natural' horses can and do forgive our mistakes. It's not just horses for courses but riders too!

I have to agree with whoever that said the foreigners are likely to become the new redundant racehorse, simply because of the sheer weight of numbers of inferior stock coming here. If we were getting the very best, that's a different matter but in too many cases, we, (the inexperienced gullible British owner) are being sold the dregs, because they believe all the hype that's thrown out about them without having the experience to make an informed opinion. Yes, it's up to people to learn more, but people nowadays think being able to walk, trot and canter is enough qualification to buy a horse; how many of us have viewers whose ability is far below what they stated when trying, it's scary?!

I know Ken will bluster away, he always does and I admire him for that, but at the same time, he should acknowledge we are just as dedicated to our own breeds as he is, that his don't suit everyone and not to be derisive of that. As I said before, there is room enough for all, it all comes down to personal choice and nobody should look down their noses at anyone for their own choices. There are good and bad in all. It will be a very bad day if our natives and thoroughbreds get over run by warmbloods all for the sake of fashion and because some people can shout louder and longer than others. There will be a market for general horses for a very long time, we don't all aspire to competition work, strange as it might sound.
 
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Ken is entitled to his opinion that foreign is best as we are that Britain can produce horses just as good too, after all we have done for years and the English Thoroughbred is one of the most successful and consistent horses in the world. Aren't they using them to improve their breeds over there?


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when farms became mechanised they used to them to refine the breeds and to improve riding horses then after the war they continued to do so with the likes of abgar, furioso, courville, lady killer, sacramento song up until around the 60s and 70s then trends moved toward the SF and the likes of cor de la bryere, alme his sons jalisco and galoubet and the trend has stayed like that since with quidam de revel, baloubet de rouet, le tot de semilly and now diamant de semilly and flipper d'elle along with others are doing the same. the use of TB blood has dwindled since the french influence with a few making it into pedigrees like coconut grove but not like they used to. so in response to your question... they did in the past and not so much now but that doesn't change the % of TB blood in continental breeds. if you mix 2 drinks containing 50% alcahol then the resulting drink still contains 50% alcahol ( take cumano who is 51.59% xx if he covered rolette the offspring would have 45.91% TB blood), so over the years the TB influence has remained strong the question in this post asked if foreign stallions were the only way british breeding can progress and if we're all honest its the quickest and most realistic route its not the only way and if people want to stick to british bred horses and breeds then thats fine its up to them but i believe it would take considerably longer.

no one has slated any british breeds so i'm not sure why you're standing up for them???
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can we stick to the original post about foreign stallions?! its much more interesting
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the question in this post asked if foreign stallions were the only way british breeding can progress and if we're all honest its the quickest and most realistic route its not the only way and if people want to stick to british bred horses and breeds then thats fine its up to them but i believe it would take considerably longer.

no one has slated any british breeds so i'm not sure why you're standing up for them???
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can we stick to the original post about foreign stallions?! its much more interesting
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You are assuming that everyone wants to breed a competition horse, which in this country is not the pinnacle for a lot of breeders, believe it or not. Even so, a foreign stallion is not a necessity although you obviously have a wider choice if you do use one; it still doesn't mean a foreigner would be an any better choice!

Most of us want to breed useful, attractive, athletic sorts that have good temperaments that can be ridden by the majority of people, not just the competitive or professional riders. who, you must admit, are in the minority in this country so why breed horses that a lot of people would never be able to handle?
It's because of this, that using foreign stallions is not necessarily the way forward for all of us and besides, we are as proud of our home grown stallions as you seem to be of your wambloods so why shouldn't we try to reddress the balance once in a while?
Remember, one size doesn't fit or suit all, the same applies to stallions.

But I am now pleased to leave you to your foreign stallions, I won't say another word - for now!
 
i didn't assume that for one moment
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thats just silly. i'm just showing my thoughts and oppinions on the question and backing it up the best i can with facts.


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Most of us want to breed useful, attractive, athletic sorts that have good temperaments that can be ridden by the majority of people, not just the competitive or professional riders.

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i totally agree with you there. the more spheres and levels you can direct your horses at the larger your customer base will be. i'm not proposing that every one tries to breed potential olympic horses but it is possible to cater for most people and theres no harm in trying
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several continental stud books aim to breed horses for all levels of riders here are 3 examples:

Trakehner
Sound horse with Trakehner type, a big frame and
correct and harmonious body proportions. versatile
riding and performance horse, easy to ride, with an
energetic, elastic and ground-covering way of
moving. Good and stable temperament. Spirited but
kind, intelligent, very willing to perform and with a
tremendous stamina.

Hanoverian
The Hanoverian is bred as a breed, which is
particularly suitable for equestrian sports. We
strive for horses which, due to their character,
their conformation, their movements, their
jumping ability and their soundness are suitable
as performance and pleasure horses.

Belgium Warmblood
A noble modern and correctly-built warmblood horse
with a rectangular frame, big outlines and good
basic paces. The horse should be pleasant to ride
and have an unobjectionable character, so that it
can be used by any rider, both as pleasure horse
and as a performance horse on national and
international level. There has to be a balance
between conformation, performance and health.

the last one seems to tick all the boxes
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"I believe we can catch them up and i'd like to say that we will. it may take 20, 30, 40 years but it is possible.

Hang on a minute this debate was going on over 20yrs ago, &amp; still nothing has really changed otherwise it would not be debated on here time &amp; time again. We have IMO not moved on much further &amp; that includes importing some of the rejects. I think the UK is fighting an uphill battle for one thing, this country does not get the support from its government in the way most if not all Continental countries receive. And so what if the surplus gets eaten, no different to producing cattle, sheet etc. There is a bigger market in this country for horses that can be ridden at RC level. For instance not everyone can afford the training for either themselves or their horses. How many studs can afford to put their horses with riders that can showcase them? I watched a demo tonight where that is exactly what did happen. Horses bred &amp; produced by the business. Rightly or wrongly the work these 4yr olds were capable of was in excess of 99% of 5+ yr olds at RC level.

I think some breeders also struggle to get the prices, as for some reason UK bred does not give the same confidence. There are many factors to take into account, but I dont think knocking each other is the way forward, (not that I see this changing). I feel we are a long way off before UK bred means more then being born in the UK. We have to face facts though that we are not on a level playing field &amp; we are not keeping up with the rest of Europe. Ken has valid views as does everyone. There is strength in numbers, working together is more benificial then snipping or trying to score points against each other. Perhaps then it wont take 20, 30 or 40yrs.
 
There are two points that have been touched on in a few posts but generally they're the "elephants in the room" in these sorts of discussions here and in North America - culling and funding.

We (collective - the same conversations happen in the UK and North America) are not going to change larger social attitudes towards these topics. We are likely not going to get breeders to be more businesslike about culling (or the attendant industries) and we are never going to get the sort of funding many of the Continental books enjoy. (Is the breeding industry in France still supported, as it has been, by the Tote? Effectively all the money from racing goes into a big pot for "sport" breeding, which includes not only racing but the FEI sports, most notably jumping, as well. Imagine the revenue stream!)

This does not mean British breeding can't be good and made better but nothing exists in isolation - one can't just ignore the larger social and economic context in which we operate. Of course, there are many excellent things to LEARN from Continental sport breeding (which is the topic at hand - there are other kinds of "native breeds" in Europe but that's not really what we're talking about) but the fact of that matter is we cannot "do it exactly as the French/Germans/Dutch/etc. do it" because we do not live in France/Germany/Holland/etc.

Production in a whole 'nother issue. I'll not get on my soap box about that.
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So can the UK or North America produce a similar, home grown system to the most successful European books without using the stock from those books and/or horses from those studbooks. Honestly? I think not. And I don't think we should try. Why reinvent the wheel? Maybe we could "catch up" to the SF/KWPN/Hannoverians/BWP/etc. - given the time, money and circumstances - but why is that a good use of energy? And wouldn't those books simply have moved on in the same time period?

Perhaps we'll get an insanely wealthy megalomaniac like Melchoir (and I mean that in the nicest possible way
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) who wants his own "British book" (although his uses stallions bred in other registries. . .).

Can there be more successful breeding, development and production systems in the UK and North America? Undoubtedly. People are trying. Some people would rather not and have gone with established books, going with the global view. (Which always makes me laugh at bit - I love the fact that books which started as distinctly regional organisations are now duking it out for a piece of the global pie and people are more than happy to send their money out of the country. But what's done is done.) To each their own.
 
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the last thing they need is a dirty great fire &amp; smoke billowing warmblood to try &amp; contend with!! which is, of course, what all warmbloods are.
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For the most part warmbloods leave me cold I guess you found 95% of the Olympic equestrian coverage unwatchable then???????????????????????? Well, I've bad news for you. All the HOYS classes will be won by warmbloods and the same will happen at Olympia (except for the shetland derby), every international dressage you're ever going to watch will be one by a warmblood.

ken obviously thinks so yes, along with the entire european breeding community, which is the most successful sport horse production area of the world. Results don't lie.

If you want to start and continue an intelligent debate, please stick to intelligent comments based on fact. You are of course entitled to an opinion, but back it up with cogent arguement rather than a series of anti-foreign rhetoric, and pro tb sentiment. The first two respondants seem to have it nailed, but you'll blame that on them agreeing with me no doubt.

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God you're rude &amp; sooo defensive.!!!! I DO NOT LIKE WARMBLOODS. I DO LIKE THROUGHBREDS. That is a personal choice. Before you ask yes I have experience of them - everything from breaking in to handling stallions / youngstock. A lot of competition bred horses are just too sharp for the average rider. It's the equivalent of giving my great aunt a Ferrari - she might just cope with driving it in a straight line but forget about any gear above second.

There are other reasons to breed horses other than for competition - some of us just plain like them, &amp; don't necessarily see them as a means to an end &amp; potential winning machines.

As for your comment about the Olympic coverage leaving me cold...what a stupid thing to say - &amp; you accuse me of lacking intelligence.......As it happens I saw very little of it - I'm too busy with MY horses to have much time to watch other peoples on the television. I did manage to catch the individual SJ final &amp; found it most enjoyable - in fact it was almost as enjoyable as the classic flat races....(almost, but not quite !!!)

Your reply was an incoherent rant which made little or no sense.....I am not anti foreign horses, the UK hardly has the sole rights to breeding decent throughbreds now do we?

Finally what on earth is all that tripe about 'You've got bad news for me, every class at HOYS will be won by a warmblood' It sounds as if warmbloods are the equine equivalent of the "Borg".....resistance is futile &amp; all that.
Oh well should make the cob class interesting !!!
 
i think it depends on what you want to acheive , we want to breed a prospective eventer to BE novice level so we are breeding one from our tb x id event mare to a proven tb event stallion , i had a quick look at the olympic 2008 results and breeding and for example here is the us event teams lineup ( and yes i know they didnt win , i,m off to an ode and have no time to look any more up us was easiest lol )
anyways hers the line up
CONNAUGHT (PHILLIP DUTTON) IRISH SPORTS HORSE
COURAGEOUS COMET (BECKY HOLDER ) TB (OFF TRACK )
POGGIO ( AMY TYRON ) TB
MC KINLAIGH (GINA MILES ) IRISH SPORTS HORSE
MARDIBA (KARAN OC CONNER ) IRISH TB
sooooooooooooo , are horses from other countries influencial in a chosen sport? yes of course they are , it seems the irish tb has a huge influence on the us eventing scene , and overseas stallions a huge influence on the british show jumping scene and thats as how it should be , you go for a stallion that has proven its performance to a mare thats suitable regardless of which country it originates from ,
but ... this *only foriegn stallions can be up there internationally and british stallions are sub standaRD * COMMENTS FROM CERTAIN MEMBERS IS ANNOYING TO SAY THE LEAST , SORRY FOR SHOUTING ME CAPS LOCK STUCK LOL
not everyone ken wants to breed a international superstar , there is a market for good all round stallions who produce good all round performers for the average rider , this snobbery and ridicule that appears on hear as soon as you mention a less than world class animal is more than annoying , but then we arent all into it as a buisiness
 
I guess it's not been very clear over the last six or seven months. I am only interested in performance horses. Natives, M&amp;M, showing, hunters, coloured (showing) etc etc, basically anything that is not performance (that's eventing, dressage and jumping) is of no interest to me, because it's not a world I exist in or know anything about, therefore won't comment on it (one or two of you might take a leaf out of that book).

And you'd think that the eventers would be sticking to their guns and using tb blood only. Tosh! The four best eventing mares in the world were covered by a showjumping warmblood last year. And close to 100 eventing mares will be giving birth in 2009, to foals by warmbloods.

Eventing has changed, the old format is exactly that. The countries which are able to adapt their national breeding programs will be the winners. French and German breeds are about to enjoy 30 years at the top of the sport. Hilariously, it's probably the UK which has the best eventing mare base in the world, although that position will be erroded by organised and well financed national programs. Thank the Lord that there are some very insightful eventing breeders in UK, who have recognised that change was required in their own programs, and have lead the way.

Performance is about only one thing, WINNING.

So several of your here are just arguing for the sake of arguement, because you don't breed for the olympic sports, and are not interested in performance therefore. You have no dog in the fight, so why debate the point?

I see these arguements all the time, and it's so funny to see people so desperately uncomfortable with change. Hilariously, those on this board who actually breed horses for these disciplines do not disagree with me even 1%. So what's the problem?

Here's a little insight into the truth; if anyone can find, create develop a breed/type of horse that can make 16 jumping attempts at 1.65m inside the time, I'll be there buying ALL your stock and breeding to your stallions. Regardless of colour, shape or nationality. PERFORMANCE IS ONLY ABOUT WINNING.

Hilariously, several of you think that what I say is "Ken's point of view/opinion". WRONG. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Because some here comment based on their opinion, they believe that what I have to say is only opinion. It is not.

MAINLAND EUROPE PRODUCE THE BEST HORSES FOR DRESSAGE AND JUMPING IN THE WORLD.

It has been that way for 20 years (probably more) and it will be that way for another 40 years.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel, just copy it.

This whole debate is about raising standards, if you don't want to raise standards, that's your right, but don't get in the way of those who do want to and are doing something about it.

Resistance is futile, if you have nothing better (or even close) to offer as an alternative. And you don't.

Alternatively continue to gaze at you navel and carrying on bitchin' about the state of British breeding in 20 years time. And you won't blame yourself because, of course, if you do nothing you can't do anything wrong...................right?

BTW, it's Mr Melchior.
 
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And you'd think that the eventers would be sticking to their guns and using tb blood only. Tosh! The four best eventing mares in the world were covered by a showjumping warmblood last year.

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One of these would surely be Brit (basically ISH?) - so that stallion would be Jaguar Mail? So you could equally well say that these mares had been sent to a three-quarter bred thoroughbred, by an off-the track American TB most emphatically bred for racing out of a half-bred mare by the TB Laudanum... which makes it all sound a bit different, doesn't it....
I gather that his breeder is a bit of a rebel who chose, on the basis of his own observation, study &amp; experience to use this large infusion of TB blood against the established opinion of his country's stud-book?
I think, watching the changes in the sort of warmbloods / sportshorses coming over here in the past 30 years, that though its inevitable that you will increasingly get a specialist type for each discipline which de-bars all others by its excellence in that particular niche, that type will actually veer more &amp; more to the - I won't say TB, I'll say racehorse- model (because French trotters have been hugely important in this too) because these horses are "engineered" by their discipline to give maximum power for minimum weight; they are basically tested to the last gasp of breath on the track in a way that wouldn't be acceptable in a showjumper or eventer. I think its more the angulation of the frame that will be different; the set of the shoulder &amp; neck etc. Just my thought, but it does already seem to be happening, with the favoured warmblood sires becoming lighter &amp; lighter- the original ones over here were valued for their substance, but now we seem to try to avoid it. (Not so sure about Dressage- there is such a big "fashion" element here).

So I don't think breeders are so much scared of change; those who like TBs above warmbloods do so not so much for the sake of tradition but because they are uneasily aware that by breeding to a warmblood - certainly in the past, maybe less so now- you trade one sort of biomechanical efficiency for another and not always to your benefit.
 
not everyone ken wants to breed a international superstar You don't speak for other people, just yourself.

only foriegn stallions can be up there internationally and british stallions are sub standaRD * Provide evidence that this statement (your BTW) is not true.

there is a market for good all round stallions who produce good all round performers for the average rider I think is was Sacha (Volatis), who several weeks ago said something about breeding for the average will get you exactly that. Absolutely true.

By breeding the best, you raise the average, thus the residuals end up in the amateur market. There's nothing wrong with that, it just means that the average riders performence will improve. I'm still not seeing a problem here.
 
If the Europeans are quite happy to take our best stallions and use them in their breeding programs why wouldn't the UK do the same? Wasn't the No1 hanovarien last year a british bred TB? You can't not use a stallion which might be the best stallion for your mare just because it is european.

I think if you want to breed something that will compete you should take advantage of all the hard work and years of development that the europeans have gone through and not make all the same mistakes again in the UK that they made about 30 years ago.
 
I think foreign stallions are part of the way forward but they have just a small part to play because without the proper systems &amp; marketing to identify British breeding success then IMHO things will not move forward.
It would be good if BEF and BB could identify &amp; promote the things being done well in British breeding eg eventing to boost profile &amp; raise support for British horses which can then be built on for other disciplines. There are many good event breeders in the UK. This stud is a great example http://www.stormhillstud.com/ I don't know these people at all by the way. I am not sure if their stallions are graded but they do seem to be doing very well with just a few mares.

I think it is interesting that a lot of UK breeders say they are breeding all round horses maybe that is why the UK produces good event horses. The UK market for foals is different to mainland Europe because there is a lot of interest in the UK in showing youngsters.

I think it is also important to have a system to identify the successful mare &amp; stallion lines in the UK for performance. This is especailly useful for those lines that are unique to the UK as they can then be promoted to other countries. When a foreign stallion is used it is very hard to export that foal if that stallion has 800 foals in mainland Europe. Most UK breeders need to sell their foals.

I also think that the 1000s of TBs bred in the UK are an underutilised resource for sporthorses. People have said on this Board that there is a huge demand for a great TB stallion or mares both in the UK and abroad. I don't know how TB race breeding works but I wish there was a better system for finding those TBS which are to slow for racing but who could make it in performance. Would there be any TB breeders who would be keen to enter a loose jumping competition for example or am I totally crazy
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This little TB mare was bought out of Ascot sales &amp; this is her three years later

HarmonyDawn.jpg
 
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Performance is about only one thing, WINNING.


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i think, Ken, dare i say, your being slightly agressive here and i wouldnt dare comment on the foreign stallions you promote ie (WB Z), but do and would 100% support british bred horses, and i think the above comment sounds awful (coming from a breeder) as winning is a bonus,,, getting there with a well adjusted, sound, horse that is bred to do its job well, for its full healthy life is a performance horse. Warmbloods are not the only types that do well in the competitive world and quite often need refining with TB, i would have a partbred WB but only if X with a TB!!! AND ALL IMHO&amp;E
 
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