Founder prognosis - vet says pts!

Rjd84

Rjd84

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 July 2011
Messages
65
Location
The Real World
Visit site
Hi everyone, apologies for another laminitis thread but I'm pretty desperate for opinions/advice. I have searched the forums and think I've read everything on the Internet about laminitis/founder and suffice to say its just fuelled my worry. My boy is 14, 16hh cob type. First ep lamintis (that I know of) may this year, box rest deep bed, soaked hay, diet of handful hifi lite with magnesium once a day. Sound after 2 weeks, very gradual turnout with strip grazing and wood chip area of paddock. Started bringing back into gentle work walking out only, and seemed sound and happy like this for 3/4 weeks. Last week the electric in our field went off, so he had his head under the fence, few days later was 'footy' to lame. Bought him back to box rest on deep bed, soaked hay etc and got vet. Vet xrayed and said he has pedal bone rotation in one front foot, with founder distance of 2.4cm. He said that the prognosis for such severe founder was poor, and I should consider pts! This is heartbreaking because my boy seems bright in the eye, happy in his stable and his usual cheeky self! He does not appear in pain at all in his stable and moves about his box comfortably. I haven't taken him out of his stable since last week on vets advice, but he was sore and lame on that foot.
He has now got heart bars on and farrier out again today to pa k his foot as vet worried about the sole.
I really don't want to open a shod v. Barefoot debate here as I have read in previous posts, but do want to consider what's best for my lad. While he seems content and not in pain I just can't give up on him! Vet was so negative tho I keep thinking back to what he said and it crushes my positivity.
Just to add I'm now feeding two feeds a day consisting of 250g top spec laminitis balancer with handful of topchop lite and magnesium and 2 bute. Ad lib soaked hay.

Would you pts if this was your horse? Has anyone got any experiences of dealing with founder of this distance? (worth saying he has got quite big feet!)I'm in such a state of worry and also pregnant so this is even harder to deal with!
 
Was going to suggest the Cushing's test, and start on Prascend (pergolide) if it's positive or even just in the "grey area" of 19-39 for his baseline ACTH (see the Liphook equine hospital's newsletter mentioning this grey area: http://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/LEH-Newletter-February-2013.pdf )

My mare was in the grey area, and I put a case to my vet for starting her on pergolide because her diet was already well controlled, her exercise regime was good, her footcare was good and yet she was still becoming footy. It has made a huge difference in terms of her demeanour (no longer looks like she's sedated at rest) and in terms of her hoof growth (no more horizontal event lines which she had despite being on the same diet for 6 months).

Back to founder. That is a long way for the pedal bones to drop, and a long way to have to bring them back up.

It'll be a long haul if you do go through with it. Can you give your horse enough to have a decent quality of life during the next year when he's recovering?

My choice would always be to have a laminitic unshod during their recovery. I'll explain why.

A horse's pedal bones can only drop if there's a gap for them to drop into. So, for example, with shoes, even heartbars, as soon as the hoof wall grows it creates a gap, and for as long as the laminae aren't strong enough to hold the skeleton up, the pedal bones risk sinking into the gap til they reach something that stops them, ie the ground.

This is why shavings is recommended as a bedding. It's also why pads are recommended. Anything that packs the gap enough to support the pedal bones and removes any gap that they might fall into.

One of my mares got acute laminitis following 5 weeks on antibiotics after an infection developed post-colic surgery. I chose to keep her unshod so I could trim her feet every few days to keep the hoof edges rounded off (to reduce stresses prizing the laminae away from the internal hoof), and so I could make sure her sole was in contact with the soft supportive surface of rubber matting and deep shavings bedding the whole time. It was only a few rasp strokes every few days, but it made a massive difference.

As such there was no time when a gap could develop for her pedal bones to fall into.

It took her a good 9 or 10 months to grow a good new hoof, and there was a massive event line from the initial laminitic attack, but by trimming so regularly I was able to make sure that the hoof grew down really well connected from that point on.

The risk is that if you don't get full control of the hoof every day, then you risk the feet dropping a bit further and a bit further and putting back any potential progress.

If there's enough to look forward to in a year's time, then yes I'd go with rehab, but only if I could ensure quality of life during that time (company of other horses, time outside a tiny stable - for example, mine had rubber mats immediately outside her stable so she could choose to have the sun on her back or to chat with other ponies), and only if I could keep that hoof wall growth back every few days (which means learning to do it yourself, not hard, because it'll never be cost-efficient for anyone else to come and do it that regularly).

Sarah
 
Honestly - I would go barefoot.

Years ago my old mare came down with laminitis very suddenly, similar to you on vets advice she was box rested, shoes off and feet padded out. My farrier was very unhelpful and didn't want to really get involved so we left her feet as they were, so trimmed as for shoes but no shoes on.

We were able to get her to the point of being on small bare paddock, moving ok but on several bute a day. I had regular xrays done and after about 8 weeks she showed pedal bone rotation. my vet advised pts as only course of action.

I had no real knowledge of barefoot back then, as it wasn't something that ever got mentioned. I had her pts.

If I had known then what I know now, we could have saved her, I have no doubt, we just didn't know any better.

Learn from others experiences and try it, if you only have pts as an option then what have you got to lose

I will always regret my lack of knowledge and loosing my girl
 
Hi there. Everyone has lots of different opinions on laminitis. I don't often post but I wanted to tell you my success story. Last year my boy had severe rotation in both fronts, pedal bone very close to the sole, also tested positive for EMS. Poor fella had months of box rest and a very strict diet as he was overweight , he took it all in his stride and came out the other side and I'm back to riding him. My vet and farrier were both brilliant, he was also shod with heartbars and dispite my concerns as they have such bad press, they seemed to work for him, he is back in normal shoes now. If he is overweight I would suggest a diet, I had to weigh out all of mines hay, I fed a small amount of fast fibre to carry his supplements, I have just put him on forage plus hoof balancer as this seems to be the best out there. I also brought a bag of chopped straw chaff so he had something to pick at because he thought I was starving him! You definitely need a supportive vet and a good farrier. Mine wasn't allowed out till he was sound without painkillers for a month and then we hand walked for another month before he got any kind of grass turnout. Good luck!
 
My horse also foundered in one foot but it was mechanical laminitis. In her good front foot the distance is 2.5cm and in her foundered foot it is only 1.25cm. She spent a year in heart bars and round bar shoes. She coped well and is still fine. Please do not give up hope if your horse is comfortable give him a chance.
 
ps. PR mentions that how good a hoof can be grown depends a lot on how much, if any, bone loss to P3 there is. Apparently it's the corium (cell producing tissues) that can also be lost that creates difficulty in growing a good thick sole. It might be worth asking the vet about this.

If you decide to try you need a hoof care professional that is experienced with successful laminitis rehab. xxxxx
 
I really feel for you. My boy went down with weight bearing laminitis in May last year following an operation to remove a chipped bone above the pastern. My vet was very pessimistic as to his recovery as his pedal bones have rotated. Following about 8 months of box rest, padding his feet every day, deep litter, weighed, soaked hay etc he is now back in work. I put this down to an excellent farrier. He is fitted with heart bars and shod every four weeks and it has been a very slow process to get him to where he is now and there is still more work to do. My vet agrees that my farrier has saved him.
He's on restricted grazing and still has weighed soaked hay. I have also been giving him Formula 4 Feet since the lami started along with Protexin Gut Balancer (was worried about Bute upsetting his gut), gave Clivers when on box rest as it helps with swelling when stood in.
It's been a very long road to get him to where he is and we still aren't allowed to canter yet but I'm just happy to still have him.
 
Would I pts if this was my horse? No.

But then I'm not you and I'm not pregnant, either.
You have to make the decision if you are up to the amount of work and care required and this horse will still be far from right when you are due to give birth. Can - or even will - anyone else give the amount of time required? Will the horse have a decent quality of life?

Hard decision but you have to be realistic. It's no good spending time and money now if you know you'll have to give up when you physically aren't able to look after him properly and if you don't have full support. When my horse had severe laminitis there was nobody to help and only my elderly mother understood why I went through the necessary 9 months work and grief to get her right again - there wasn't anyone I would trust to look after her in the early stages. Hugs for you though, I know this is a difficult one to decide on
 
Hi,
May I suggest you watch all the vids on here to help you make an informed decision - it is an amazing explanation into the three types of laminitis.
http://hoofcare.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/equine-laminitis-2012-video-education.html

You mentionn you have sinking and rotation.....and I can only presume that the EMS test will come back positive with these xrays.

May I also suggest..you are going to be in serious management territory with your boy from here on in.....something which may be very difficult as your pregnancy progresses....and then when the small person arrives ( congratluations by the way :)).

I cannot advise you what to do.....but the decision you make has to include the quality of life for the equine and the human.
Best of luck
Bryndu
 
Ask your vet about Founder Guard, I know years ago they had to import it from Australia on special license, but it did wonders for my pony who was a chronic laminitic. He was sound without any laminitis on it for over 10 years.

If he is well in himself and you have the time/energy to rehab him, go for it. My vet advised PTS at 5 years old and he went on to be 27. Just be aware that is he isn't cushingsoid now, there is a high likelyhood he will be in the future and you may have to test regularly (May is quite often a freebie month).
 
I have met a few horses with rotation. One big mare only needed to be pasture sound. Did everything they possibly could, no pain relief seemed to touch her. Got pedal bones through soles after everything
Big horses are more difficult known another big horse go through this.
But if your horse is comfortable that is the thing, these two weren't really which was a bit difficult.
Also do you have any toe to play with? the angle can be adjusted by reducing the toe (with quick drastic results!) but I presume your vet/farrier has suggested done this
 
My 17hh Irish Draught came down with Lami last June (2012) and although was negative for Cushings he was Insulin Resistant..He had rotation on both front feet not to the same degree as yours but still alot for a big horse to deal with..He was on box rest for three months with quarter ciip shoes and pads which the farrier packed out underneath with Plasticine of all things (farrier said it would stay pliable with the body heat but still support his soles) ...We kept him on a Fast Fibre and Dengie Molasses free Chaff with Mag Ox and Yea Sacc and soaked hay...Over a year on he is as sound as a pound pretty much (Vet picked up on Ring bone on X-rays)..But he is in a fatty paddock by night with hay and stabled by day but does have an hour out in the "normal" field whilst i muck him out..It can be done but it is going to test every ounce of strength and sanity due to all the work that will be involved and you will want to pull your hair out one minute and cry with joy at other times..If you think you and your horse can cope with this then maybe it is worth a go..
 
Thank you all so much for your replies so far, it is so heartening to hear of others success rehabilitating through this horror, although I know what works for one may not for another.
I know it's a lot to think about, and a lot to take on managing him but I'm very lucky in that I have a very supportive OH and family, not to mention an amazing livery yard with friends that will help me so I feel lucky in that respect. I feel I owe it to him to give him a good try, he is still so happy in himself, and although it's no match he has a stable like a palace! Scratch mats, big bed, view of field mates and company at night. I had to get him out of his stable tonight for farrier check and he walked out very comfortably, only slightly careful on bad foot (does have heart bar shoe, gel pad, spongey type filler and plasticine in there, not to mention bute) but he's been lame on bute in the past so I'm slightly heartened by this. As long as he's comfortable I'll carry on, and if this treatment method doesn't work I will look at barefoot.
Rema you are right, I've been hysterically worried, tired, frustrated at times and crying tears of joy the next. This poor baby will be born frowning!
He also has sidebone in this hoof, and vet and farrier agree it's unusual to see all this in one foot and no trace in the other. He does have plenty of toe as lizness mentioned and farrier has cut this right back to release the pressure (not sure if I've explained that right!).
 
I cant really advise you on what to do but just wanted to say that I feel your pain, worry, frustration and sadness. I have been there myself and wish you and your horsey the very best. Take care of yourself and your baby and I have my fingers crossed for you. It is good that you have a supportive family, my OH could not cope with me being stressed and worried and so I had to keep my pain to myself...very hard indeed. Good luck. x
 
My daughter's 22 year old Cushings TB mare came down with Cushings-related laminitis at Christmas 2012. Vet wouldn't give a prognosis. She was so bad, my farrier didn't think she would survive. When vet came out to her in January, she literally fell over when he lifted a front leg. She had laminitis in all four feet, with severe rotation in all feet, one of her hinds being one of the worst affected. She was box rested for about six months with plastic Imprint shoes and I'm cutting a VERY long story short, but now leading her is as though she's going to the start of the 3.20 at Kempton Park!! She's totally sound and ready to go! She looks amazing and my daughter will get back on her shortly. I always remember my amazing vet, Chris Harris, now sadly deceased, saying to me about laminitics, "The longer you keep them in, the better they come out". And I think he's right! Our mare looks fab when she was literally at death's door at Christmas! Don't give up! X
 
Last edited:
The difference between most of the above posts and the OPs horse is that most of you are describing cases with rotation, while the OPs horse has both this and sinking. Sinking is the biggest prognostic indicator. Would I keep a horse with profound sinking going if he/she were still significantly lame and on a fair amount of bute 2-3 months down the line? Not me personally but then I hate seeing an animal suffer because an owner isnt brave enough to make the kindest decision. only your vet can tell you if your horse is suffering so i would be letting this guide me not the verdict of the majority of posters on a forum.


ETA -if a horse or pony improves greatly clinically in a couple of weeks then severe rotation would not in itself be life limiting.
 
thanks everyone. I'm encouraged that he seems comfortable, and i don't think hes suffering. If i thought for a second he was suffering, miserable, in pain, of course i would let him go. I certainly don't think i can let him go without giving treatment a try. I know its not uncommon for horses to be written off and make a recovery, if only to pasture soundness. glenruby, he currently looks almost sound on bute - of course in a few months time if hes still lame on or off bute then that's another decision point. his welfare is my prime concern and while he seems content i feel i have got to carry on, horrible as it seems it would almost be easier if he was miserable and in pain, because then id clearly know what i had to do.
 
Obviously I don't know more than vets but there are other ways of viewing sinking and 'rotation' that lead to different treatment/management options and have success in many cases.
http://www.hoofrehab.com/jessica.htm

September and October PR addresses sinking. http://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsebackMagazineArticles.html

Traditional views of these situations are being challenged and new research and treatments/management options are having success.

ps. One thing I have come to believe is the sole needs pressure and release not constant pressure of a shoe. This is why in barefoot treatments include conforming surfaces and booting/padding options. Diet is another crucial element along with trimming that preserves sole.

I wish you the best op and am sure you will ensure your horse isn't suffering.
 
Last edited:
amandap said:
Obviously I don't know more than vets but there are other ways of viewing sinking and 'rotation' that lead to different treatment/management options and have success in many cases.
http://www.hoofrehab.com/jessica.htm

September and October PR addresses sinking. http://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsebackMagazineArticles.html

Traditional views of these situations are being challenged and new research and treatments/management options are having success.

ps. One thing I have come to believe is the sole needs pressure and release not constant pressure of a shoe. This is why in barefoot treatments include conforming surfaces and booting/padding options. Diet is another crucial element along with trimming that preserves sole.

I wish you the best op and am sure you will ensure your horse isn't suffering.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much. makes very interesting reading.

Im also interested by this, but cant imagine turning my boy out at the minute, although id love to be able to:
http://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_Founder.html
 
Rjd84 said:
Thank you so much. makes very interesting reading.

Im also interested by this, but cant imagine turning my boy out at the minute, although id love to be able to:
http://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_Founder.html
Click to expand...
I think she is talking about grass free or bare/sparse turnout but that's a guess as she doesn't specify. I agree with you to be cautious at this stage and with a shoeing option.
The important thing is self directed movement as opposed to forced movement and appropriate support for the hooves through surface or pads/boots. Having a companion can be crucial in keeping a horse calm. A horse stressing and circling in a box can be worse for hooves than slow self directed movement imho.

If you did decide to try that route imho you need an experienced hoof care professional (with successful bf rehabs under their belt) to advise and trim appropriately if required.

Do lots of reading/research yourself so you can weigh up the options.
 
Update from vet:

My boy has ATCH (?) level of 68 and vet recommends beginning medication for cushings, so now I'm off to read everything I can find about managing cushings!
Vet still Pessimistic due to founder severity but said he his heartened by the fact he seems comfortable moving around his stable and is still his contented self. Fingers remaining crossed!
 
I know his levels are high but at least you now know what you are dealing with...when he starts his meds (prascend?) he might go a bit lethargic and quiet and off his grub for a while....Don't panic it is quite normal..

I'm glad the vet has not given up hope yet..Hopefully he can be on the road to recovery now..good luck..
 
Have you read Jaime Jackson's 'Founder, Prevention and Cure'? Although I suspect some parts of his scientific understanding are a bit dodgy, he has loads of experience with severe cases of rotation and is very positive about outcomes. The big thing I got from the book was 'give it time' (while keeping the horse comfy!).
 
Rjd84 said:
Update from vet:

My boy has ATCH (?) level of 68 and vet recommends beginning medication for cushings, so now I'm off to read everything I can find about managing cushings!
Vet still Pessimistic due to founder severity but said he his heartened by the fact he seems comfortable moving around his stable and is still his contented self. Fingers remaining crossed!
Click to expand...
Well that's good to know and something to work with. There's this group to join. http://ecirhorse.org/
 
My little mare had acute laminitis in all 4 hooves some 5 years ago. Pedal bones had dropped all round and were pushing on her soles - farrier didn't think she had a chance, but we wanted to try. After a few months she was more comfortable physically but was very depressed - up until the laminitis, at 7yo, she had never been stabled in her life and wasn't tolerating it well. Fortunately I was offered the use of a small woodchip paddock with field shelter for her, and moving there made an instant difference to her mental and then physical health. She had several related setbacks, and it was nearly 2 years before we slowly brought her back into work. For the past 3 years she has been fully sound, working regularly, happily jumping 2'6 or more (she's only 11.1). She's also living out with our little herd, on sparse grass 24/7. We are very careful with her weight, keeping her a little on the lean side of the "perfect" condition score we aim for with the others, who are all fit not fat. She's on a fibre/oil based diet, no cereals or added sugar. We came very close to giving up with her, especially when she was miserable and in pain, but when I look back at the wonderful times she and my daughter have shared over the past few years I'm so glad we kept deciding to fight on just one more day.

No one else can make the decision for you, however if your lad is comfortable and happy in himself there's a chance he can come through this to full recovery.
 
Thank you amandap I have joined the group! Wow a lot to learn..

Purplerain your story is wonderful, every recovery I read gives me hope and a little more strength to carry on. He is very relaxed in his stable so I'm lucky, and has company from 6pm-10am and lots of activity during the day in the yard although he's mostly munching his soggy hay bless him! I watched him move about his stable this morning and you wouldn't have known there was a thing wrong with him! I know the bute, shoe and gel pad will be masking a lot but he's comfortable
It's just hoping and praying that pedal bone doesn't sink through his sole.
 
Just wanted to give an update and seek some reassurance (again!). My horse has been on prascend for 2 weeks now and the transformation has been unbelievable! He's gone from 4 bute a day to one, and is walking out of his stable sound! Have just walked him a few yards to a soft wood chip area while I muck out as he's still on box rest but he's looking very good. I can't get my head around the vets poor prognosis and his apparent speedy recovery, although I know we're not out of the woods yet! His management hasn't changed, soaked hay, deep bed, heart bar shoes with gel pad but now reduced bute and added prascend. I know founder and sinking has a poor prognosis but I'm heartened by his current movement to soundness since starting the prascend. Wondered if people had experienced similar and am I right to get my hopes up?! Thanks again for responses so far x
 
Hi Rjd84

I know of something that may also be of interest to you. Have a look through this website (especially the case studies)... http://www.barehoofcare.com/

Andrew Bowe is a traditional Master Farrier (as in shoes, trimming etc) and also a barefoot trimmer. The things he knows about hooves is insane! He has some really good ideas about rehabbing laminitics. It is not all bad news. :)
I attended a lecture of his in December last year and he was brilliant. There are some management tips I got from him that I plan on implementing with my own horses once I get my own property.

Good luck and I hope your horse recovers. :) xx
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top