Four time canter?

[Law]

Firstly apologies for mamoth post!

I have been having a bit of trouble getting my horse to canter on one rein - he'll do it but it feels like a sack of poo, he's not collected, he's not upright etc he has come on loads this summer and recently and I have been working on collection, balance, outline, leg yielding, shoulder in, good circles, extended and medium trot, walk to canter, serpentines including walk to canter across the middle to encourage him to come underneath himself and sit on his hocks, and to encourage responsiveness- and to prepare him for flying changes. We did a fair amount of preparation for flying changes and it didn't go 100% according to plan so I am leaving it for a while. We'll come back to it. The problem is that his canter on one rein has gone really downhill and we are having a nightmare. I half think that this is because the surface is awful and he slips everytime we attempt to canter and he becomes very unbalanced at the corners and short sides as he thinks he's going to fall, then to counter this he races off like a rocket and I can't collect him down the long side. I sit on my bum, lift my hands a bit because he leans (even though he is soft) he pokes his head and runs off then breaks back to trot. I apply my legs to drive him up in to the bridle and to stop him breaking but by the time i've blinked we are hurtling towards the corners and he loses balance and tips me out of the saddle and I hunch up (this sounds like I am the worlds worst rider!) I try and half halt towards the top and bottom of the school but he's too fast for it to make much impact. I'm trying to half halt with my seat too
I decided to lunge him last night in a vain attempt to teach him that cantering in the school is OK and he CAN do it, only it proved more and more that he can't

I was a bit worried as he didn't look right so I got a more experienced friend to come and have a look and she hit the nail on the head. We put him in the small arena which has a better surface and he's more confident in there but It looks like his canter on the left rein has gone four time- not disunited but unbalanced and four time.
She suspects that I have asked him too much too quickly as his schooling has been upped to 4 nights a week flat work only as the surface isn't right for jumping at the moment. Most sessions are working on elementary moves - i've toned this down by asking for totally varried things instead of all lateral work doing transitions on circles, no canter work, etc She thinks i've shortened him too much too quickly- She has suggested that i go back a few months in our schooling and take it down a peg or two to get a better canter, come off his back and drive him forward. Does this sound ok? Has anyone got other suggestions? I'm hugely aware that he needs to relax, submit and swing a bit more, loosen up and just chill a bit but I can't really give him time off as he's in and getting fat despite muzzling him for turn out!

Sorry for the HUGE post!!

 

[Alibear]

Yep ignore collecting the canter and just concentrate on riding it forwards although if you can get him going whilst keeping your seat then that's fine to. Can try for woking canter on the short ends and aim for a bit of medium on the long sides.

Well that's what I had to do with a mare who had a habbit of going 4 time on me.

 

[Tempi]

I would personaly find yourself a good trainer - do you have lessons at all? It sounds like you are trying to do too much with a horse that (from what it sounds like) is struggling to canter properly. You can't go trying to get a horse to do more 'techinical' movements before the basics are achieved.

what is the surface like on your school? as you say its slippery?

also i dont understand how you can say your horse is soft in the mouth just after saying he leans on your hand........

 

[Sal_E]

It sounds as if the surface is causing confidence & balance problems. Is this a short-term problem? Weather/season related? Personally, I'd avoid cantering in the school for now as you're not doing under the right circumstances. Work on other stuff that does cause a problem - you can work on canter transitions (couple of strides on canter, back to trot) but avoid going round & round. I'm presuming you can use a better surface in the spring, OR could you box up & hire out a school once a week? Or go to an instructor with a school?

I'd also get his back checked, 1) because that could be causing the problem hes' suffering from & 2) if he's going round not using himself properly, he could currently be causing a problem even if there wasn't a problem there to begin with...

 

[Law]

I had lessons through the spring/summer (March-June) before the dressage qualifiers but haven't had any for about 3 months as we were showing and doing XC. After September we started working a bit harder.
The surface is some form of bark/wood that the yard owner put down- some of it got blown away before the kick boards went on the post and rails and it has bedded in now (over the last 6 weeks) with the wet weather. It's complicated but he's been very capable of cantering with balance and collection in the smaller school as the surface is different but the size of the school is not great (infact its very small at 15m by 18m) so there is a limit to what we can do.

 

[Law]

Thanks SE, the surface is due to have another top up in the next few weeks and then something else will be added to it in spring so that we can jump. I haven't got a box so can't get out but have a lesson booked next week.
I was going to have the back lady and physio out to him as well - he wasn't right back in Feb and they both came and saw him and gave him a once over. He's been fine since they saw him but with him slipping in the school a fair amount recently I thought that was a good idea anyway.

 

[Sal_E]

That's good news about the school - hope you get it sorted.

 

[Law]

P_G I appreciate your post and the points you raise but I wouldn't be trying to get him to do more 'technical' movements without instruction/guidance or without the confidence that I am doing as best I can- i constantly think about what i am doing, whether my position could be improved, whether i have asked him properly and whether he is capable of it. And most importantly whether I have set him up for the movement.
It's hard to explain but he is soft in trot but in canter he has taken to leaning every few strides as he's not happy. When he's going normally I can give and retake the reins fine and he doesn't lean. He doesn't lean normally- it's only a few strides at a time and when he settles he's good.

 

[Tierra]

Hiya Lau

Firstly, horses can and DO loose their confidence on dodgy surfaces. If they think they're going to fall, they will tense. If they tense in canter they tend to either become stiff as a board with their heads stuck in the air or they "prong" about like deer (i.e. dont actually go anywhere, but shorten up and start losing the rhythm of the canter. Be aware though, that this can also be the result of trying to collect a horse without sufficient power from behind)

Sooo primary concern for me would be the surface. It sounds like you are getting into your schooling quite a lot. If this is indeed the case, what are the possibilities of moving elsewhere? Ive got no experience of the type of surface you're refering to, but Ive read a couple of other posts on here with people complaining about them being slippy.

Moving onto the actual schooling issue.

Horses often produce four time canters because they arent moving forward enough. In fact, most problems in canter basically come down to horses not moving forward enough. Ive found it can also come from a stress / tension issue. This tends to manifest itself when a rider has been asking a horse to collect but without sufficient power from behind. The horse then gets confused about whats being asked, shortens up but looses his rhythem and tempo completly. Im also a tiny bit confused in that you say he's light in the hand but also leaning on you which are really two complete opposites.

My gut instinct from a schooling point of view would be to really get him moving forward. Dont worry about what his head is doing in terms of an outline, but get him powering forwards - at the end of the day, its only by creating this power behind that you'll get a true outline anyway... If he gets short in the canter, give your hands forward and really push him forwards. However, if the school is as slippy as you say, Id be concerned about doing this.

To put it more simply, Id be inclined to let go of the front end somewhat and concentrate on getting the back end motoring but whilever he's slipping all over the place, I think this is going to be extremely difficult for you!

You say he's ignoring your half halts and that you're doing them from your seat. Are you also using your hand? Weight aids only tend to come into play (in my opinion) as the horse becomes more advanced in his or her schooling. If he's ignoring your seat then you need to be clearer and use your hands to produce the half halt (note - you should use your seat also so he learns to associate the two and then, as he does become more collected, you will find he becomes much less dependent on your hand generally).

I'd agree with P_G about getting a good trainer in so they can see exactly whats going on from the ground. Its terribly difficult to give advice on here without an actual view of whats going on between horse and rider. As I mentioned before though, Id seriously consider moving the horse elsewhere as I dont see how your schooling can progress whilever your horse is slipping about.

If that isnt an option, bring everything back to walk and trot and focus on getting him working through correctly in these two paces before moving on to the canter. Helping him to bring his weight back onto his haunches in walk and trot will build up his muscles more in preparation for the canter. Again though, make sure you're focusing on pushing him from behind and dont stress over your hands. When he's working correctly from his back end, he'll start to work into your contact anyway so it will come together.

 

[Law]

Thanks Tierra for such an explicit post.

With regards to the leaning thing, 95% of the time he doesn't lean and he's light, very rhythmical and listening- the other 5 percent is when he's really tense and panicy, long and evading by poking at canter. I think that this stems from his insecurity at canter on the surface. I'm not going to school at canter in the big arena- i'll do the canter work up in the small arena and focus on transitions and 20m (18m) circles and i'll try and get him out to another yard where the dressage and SJ is held, even if I get up there once in 4-6 weeks that will be better than nothing. i think you hit the nail on the head with the reference to the dear and 'pronging'- it looked a wee bit odd on the lunge but improved when i put him in the small arena.
Re the Half halts- he was ignoring them when i was just asking with my hands but I tried the other night to really think about what I was doing and to use the seat as well and it was much better. I'm going to scrap cantering in the big arena until the surface is topped up.
I've got a good trainer coming a week on Wednesday who taught me through spring and early summer so it will be interesting to see what she says. (she's got a dressage emphasis as that is what she competes at)
It's really upsetting having these issues as I don't want to give him the chance to learn negative responses and don't want to put him off flatwork for good but flat is all i can do for now without transport there isn't much I can do

 

[Tierra]

Ok, my inclination then, would be to give with the hand when he tenses in his canter. If he's generally quite light, make sure you're sat back on your seat bones and keep your hands at a good height. My horse will have a habit of turning into a pronging deer monster if people either use too much hand in canter or if they lower their hands (therefore pressing the rein downwards).

Soooooooo heres my thoughts.

Remember the elbow should be bent even though this can make your hands feel too high. That creates a kind of pulley system between your arm and the horses mouth. If you think of this in comparison with riders that you see wedge their hands down so their arm is almost straight from shoulder to hand. If you do this with your hands, the chances are you'd tip forwards and then you actually press down on the reins (couple this with riders that you then see sawing at their horses mouth and you can begin to imagine how uncomfortable this is for them).

So, sit back, legs on, hands up and light. Make a conscious effort to point your thumbs towards the horses mouth and hold the reins firmly - enough that if he actually tugs, you wont release the rein. If he shortens up in canter and starts pronging - let your hand go forward slightly so you arent restricting him, sit back on your seat even more and kick. Its tempting sometimes when they become short like this to try and fiddle with the reins and bring them back together this way but this is more likely to drive him onto his forehand. It can also create a fear of the contact from the horse which is precisely what you dont want. So, really use your seat so you feel like your pushing your hips forwards towards your hands with each stride and count 1-2-3 all the time. The minute he softens again, ease off slightly and bring your hands back into a normal position.

Always always ride your canter with your seat - which it sounds like you're doing anyway. Ive found in the past when a horse starts pronging (im sorry, i just cant think of a better word here!), its tempting to soften your seat and tip forwards (because its easy to think the horse is evading your seat and therefore by softening, you're being kind to him). Most of the time however, what they need is a damn good kick and for you to really push them forwards but keep the hand soft and allowing. Visualise yourself sat in a really good canter and remember that if you want your horse to sit back on his haunches, then you need to be sat back into your seat

Re your half halts. It sounds like you're doing the right thing here. When I half halt i clench my seat muscles and feel like im moving my weight backwards and down into the saddle. A horse should always attempt to balance itself around you (which is why a good seat is so important), so when you sit back, your horse should start to sit back with you. He will learn this in time. Remember you can perfect these in walk before moving onto trot and canter. I still do loads and loads of walk work with my boy before moving to the faster paces.. even though some people look at me like im crazy

If you lunge on any days, make sure again that you're driving him forwards from behind. Dont let lunging be a chance of an easy time for him and work him forwards just as much as you would in the saddle.

If you have more specific queries, feel free to shoot me a PM and i'll do my best to either explain myself better or help further