France to impose certificate of knowledge
- Thread starter teapot
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Somewhat reluctantly, I'm in favour.
My fears are that things like barefoot, which really broke the mould of foot care over ten years ago and revolutionised the treatment of navicular syndrome, might not happen if there is one "correct" way to look after horses mandated by the state.
I would also say that the worst abuse cases I've come across were carried out by people with a ton of professional experience.
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My fears are that things like barefoot, which really broke the mould of foot care over ten years ago and revolutionised the treatment of navicular syndrome, might not happen if there is one "correct" way to look after horses mandated by the state.
I would also say that the worst abuse cases I've come across were carried out by people with a ton of professional experience.
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I like it, but I don't. If the Germans start this here with their "ideas" all horses will be kept in stables only Nov - May and must be shod when in work, and only trained according to the official German training scale.
Ok, I exaggerate a bit based on my local general experiences, but I also would not be surprised by something like this 🙄
Ok, I exaggerate a bit based on my local general experiences, but I also would not be surprised by something like this 🙄
Like the idea in principal, but lets hope guidelines include a firm understanding of natural behaviours.
Similarly, I would hate to see innovation and independent thought being stifled simply to conform to accepted "wisdom". Hopefully a certificate of knowledge will underpin innovation and independent thought.. If the knowledge base is sound (not just based on "tradition") scientific / evidence based then it could be a really positive.
IF worded correctly it could be a massive positive to preventing and resolving horse welfare issues
It could also offer a legal standard of horse care that if failed could be classed as breaking the law, so it would make it easier to be able to remove the horse and prosecute the owner
It could also offer a legal standard of horse care that if failed could be classed as breaking the law, so it would make it easier to be able to remove the horse and prosecute the owner
Ive always thought such a scheme as taking an exam to own any animal, to ensure potential owners know the true efforts required for caring for any particular species, was a good idea.
If youre a dedicated passionate animal lover, you’d welcome studying/taking such an exam.
It would put off the millions of animal owners who ‘fancy a pet’, and currently just go out , buy one, see how they get on. Thus preventing millions of animals going around the home to home circuitry.
If they knew study/preparation and exam was required, most of the ‘curious about a pet people‘ wouldnt bother, most likely, and those that do, are given a full picture of what to expect before going into ownership, so make a better informed decision before potentially ruining an animal.
I agree, there’s potential for such certificates to be too rigid, and prevent developing best practice ideas. We know, with horses, very rarely does one size fit all management-wise. There would need to be a basic outlining of essential needs to be met, and then caveats allowed in certain circumstances.
I dont truly welcome this at all, laws and policing of animal carers, but the stats dont lie, neither does history, it’s evidently needed to prevent the level of cruelty all animals species suffer from at the hands of *some* ‘carers’.
If youre a dedicated passionate animal lover, you’d welcome studying/taking such an exam.
It would put off the millions of animal owners who ‘fancy a pet’, and currently just go out , buy one, see how they get on. Thus preventing millions of animals going around the home to home circuitry.
If they knew study/preparation and exam was required, most of the ‘curious about a pet people‘ wouldnt bother, most likely, and those that do, are given a full picture of what to expect before going into ownership, so make a better informed decision before potentially ruining an animal.
I agree, there’s potential for such certificates to be too rigid, and prevent developing best practice ideas. We know, with horses, very rarely does one size fit all management-wise. There would need to be a basic outlining of essential needs to be met, and then caveats allowed in certain circumstances.
I dont truly welcome this at all, laws and policing of animal carers, but the stats dont lie, neither does history, it’s evidently needed to prevent the level of cruelty all animals species suffer from at the hands of *some* ‘carers’.
I have often thought that you should have to take a test to be able to keep a horse/dog/child!
I think it could be a very good idea if it was a test like the stage one and that management of each horse could be modified to siut.
I also think it will make prosecutions for neglect of cruelty easier because people won't be able to claim they didn't know about the animals needs.
I also think it will make prosecutions for neglect of cruelty easier because people won't be able to claim they didn't know about the animals needs.
as with anything the law abiding people would take the tests/training. They, however, are not usually the ones causing problems. The ones who flout the rules and don't take the tests are the ones who cause the cruelty problems.
I've taken quite a few rescue horses in over the years. I know where they have come from and what has happened to them and to think their earlier care would have been any better if their previous owner had taken a test is laughable.
It the standard of horse care failed to meet the required standard then they would be breaking the law. I remember the first rescue cases I reported. The owner was already banned from keeping horses. You would think some action would therefore be taken when he had broken that requirement. The action the RSPCA took was to return the 2nd lot of rescues to him.
The people causing problems with horses don't care about breaking the law if they even get caught.
What on earth are you going to teach people? To many people (including me)keeping horses in cages in American barns is an unacceptable way of horse keeping. Keeping them in 24/7 with an hour on the walker certainly is. Yet as it seems to be the standard way of keeping them then no doubt it would be the promoted way.
Barefoot as YCBM mentioned is another area open to conjecture. The standard method is shoeing. I've seen many vets and farriers failing to point thrush and contraction out. It is so common it is just accepted as being correct. No doubt barefoot self trimers (who could be some of the ones with the best quality feet) would be frowned upon.
one "correct" way to look after horses mandated by the state.
do people really want that?
if you need a certificate to keep horses why not one to keep children.
I've taken quite a few rescue horses in over the years. I know where they have come from and what has happened to them and to think their earlier care would have been any better if their previous owner had taken a test is laughable.
It the standard of horse care failed to meet the required standard then they would be breaking the law. I remember the first rescue cases I reported. The owner was already banned from keeping horses. You would think some action would therefore be taken when he had broken that requirement. The action the RSPCA took was to return the 2nd lot of rescues to him.
The people causing problems with horses don't care about breaking the law if they even get caught.
What on earth are you going to teach people? To many people (including me)keeping horses in cages in American barns is an unacceptable way of horse keeping. Keeping them in 24/7 with an hour on the walker certainly is. Yet as it seems to be the standard way of keeping them then no doubt it would be the promoted way.
Barefoot as YCBM mentioned is another area open to conjecture. The standard method is shoeing. I've seen many vets and farriers failing to point thrush and contraction out. It is so common it is just accepted as being correct. No doubt barefoot self trimers (who could be some of the ones with the best quality feet) would be frowned upon.
one "correct" way to look after horses mandated by the state.
do people really want that?
if you need a certificate to keep horses why not one to keep children.
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It’s going to discriminate against people with leaning disability and autism. As someone who has a learning disability not everyone is welcoming especially in the horse world. I think it’s will prevent people leaning disability and autism owing a horse.
That seems a bit of a stretch TID2022!
I don’t think getting a basic sign off (that then can be used as evidence you ought to know better) would be a bad thing. Their competition world is pretty different to ours but I think increased structure (on what’s already more structured than us) can only be a good thing.
I don’t think getting a basic sign off (that then can be used as evidence you ought to know better) would be a bad thing. Their competition world is pretty different to ours but I think increased structure (on what’s already more structured than us) can only be a good thing.
I'm firmly against. Not the principle, but because in practice it would cause more harm than good.
Would it stop Rollkur? I think not. Would it lead to fewer people entering the industry, and further 'elitism' in the sport. Yes, definitely.
Some of the best horsemanship I have ever seen has been carried out by people who can barely read, and as noted above, knowledge does not prevent abuse/neglect.
Would it stop Rollkur? I think not. Would it lead to fewer people entering the industry, and further 'elitism' in the sport. Yes, definitely.
Some of the best horsemanship I have ever seen has been carried out by people who can barely read, and as noted above, knowledge does not prevent abuse/neglect.
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it stupid in my opinion it’s going to punished the good owners and the bed owners will get away with it and won’t take the test. Also there is different way of keeping horses so horses who got turnout in the winter will that considered abuse.
Interesting how will this impact on owners who do not ride for example a lot of race horse owners who are business people. What about owners who keep race horses or competition horses in training but are non residents or non riding parents who own ponies for their children.
If you have to prove you can ride and drive a horse before you can own I think this could be difficult.
If you have to prove you can ride and drive a horse before you can own I think this could be difficult.
Could we hear from somebody who lives in France at the moment what this new rule will actually mean in practice and how it will alter the already existing regulations please?
I think its unworkable.
However, I would absolutely like to see livery yards with more than X number of paying liveries (DIY, FULL, Grass, eg all paying liveries) coming under the boarding of animals act. Or at least being council licenced for basic facilities inc buildings (stables and ancillary buildings) for Y number of equines that can be housed.
However, I would absolutely like to see livery yards with more than X number of paying liveries (DIY, FULL, Grass, eg all paying liveries) coming under the boarding of animals act. Or at least being council licenced for basic facilities inc buildings (stables and ancillary buildings) for Y number of equines that can be housed.
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How on earth are those enforced? There's no point in having any rules or regulations if they're not monitored or enforced.
This would never work in the uk as we don't even enforce the Animal Welfare Act (our police seem to leave it to a charity- without any legal rights - to do that ).
Imagine someone keeping horses here without such a certificate- what would happen to them ? A fine ? Someone removes the horses? And puts them where ?
Great as an idea but not workable in the real world.
This would never work in the uk as we don't even enforce the Animal Welfare Act (our police seem to leave it to a charity- without any legal rights - to do that ).
Imagine someone keeping horses here without such a certificate- what would happen to them ? A fine ? Someone removes the horses? And puts them where ?
Great as an idea but not workable in the real world.
but of course all these regs are enforced. All horses now have passports and all are micro chipped. I doubt there is one equine without both of these. 
I expect compliance with knowledge certificates would be on the same level as passports and chips.
I expect compliance with knowledge certificates would be on the same level as passports and chips. Yep the idea that you could have to ride to pass a test to own a horse bothers me a lot. I know a few people who own and have never ridden, through disability, lack of interest or whatever. They drive, show in hand, potter around with their field ornaments or breed. There’s a woman near me who breeds some cracking minis; she’s in her 60s and apparently never ridden! Or what about someone who rides western or sidesaddle
And who decides what the official way is? Are they going down the route of horses should be shod and stabled and clipped? Or that horses should be out as close to 24/7 as possible and barefoot? I know people who regard both of those options as cruel, when then truth is probably there’s a place for them both.
I feel this could lead to an even narrower view of what’s acceptable in the horse weird, and I’m not sure I trust anyone to put together a properly accurate test that won’t exclude anyone with problems - ie learning disabilities like dyslexia and people who don’t speak french very well.
And who decides what the official way is? Are they going down the route of horses should be shod and stabled and clipped? Or that horses should be out as close to 24/7 as possible and barefoot? I know people who regard both of those options as cruel, when then truth is probably there’s a place for them both.
I feel this could lead to an even narrower view of what’s acceptable in the horse weird, and I’m not sure I trust anyone to put together a properly accurate test that won’t exclude anyone with problems - ie learning disabilities like dyslexia and people who don’t speak french very well.
Enforcement would of course be a joke.
Even I don't know if I own some of the ponies in my field, so how are they supposed to tell?
Even I don't know if I own some of the ponies in my field, so how are they supposed to tell?
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It is coming. It was looked at when the 2018 act was written but time ran out. As is dog walking businesses.
I'm presuming that you wouldn't be able to have a horse's microchip/passport registered in your name if you didn't have the test, but then again if you're not taking the test, who knows if you're bothered to change the microchip/passport to begin with.
This is the thing that bothers me too - different breeds/types need different management, as do equines doing different jobs. Also the same horse needs different management throughout their lives - not just dependent on age but on job or resting.
The other thing is that can every element of good stockmanship be tested through a licensing scheme? gut-feeling and instinctive 'sense' and knowing your animal are so so important.
The other thing is that can every element of good stockmanship be tested through a licensing scheme? gut-feeling and instinctive 'sense' and knowing your animal are so so important.
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In my mind this would be more akin to the dangerous wild animal licenses/basic animal welfare. I don’t see any reason people’s riding would need to be assessed- probably the majority of horse owners are not themselves riders when you factor in the size of the racing and low end breeding industries.
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All horse owners should have a basic knowledge of horse care.
Forget all the different variations on that care, the first thing a new horse owner needs to know is the 'standard basic care' They can then carry on with natural horsemanship etc etc. Basic feeding, watering and sheltering knowledge is essential.How many laminitis cases there are nowadays , caused by overrugging by sentimental horse owners who run and change rug weights when the temperature drops by 1 degree, and by the over feeding, for example of native ponies that are not allowed to 'drop off' weight during the winter as nature intended in order to ready said pony for the rush of sugar in spring grass.
Yes lets bring in a basic knowledge test then perhaps people would learn from an expert and pass a test, rather than learn from the internet and other fairly inexperienced horse owners on their yard sometimes, inadvertantly hopefully, causing sufffering to the animals in their care.
Forget all the different variations on that care, the first thing a new horse owner needs to know is the 'standard basic care' They can then carry on with natural horsemanship etc etc. Basic feeding, watering and sheltering knowledge is essential.How many laminitis cases there are nowadays , caused by overrugging by sentimental horse owners who run and change rug weights when the temperature drops by 1 degree, and by the over feeding, for example of native ponies that are not allowed to 'drop off' weight during the winter as nature intended in order to ready said pony for the rush of sugar in spring grass.
Yes lets bring in a basic knowledge test then perhaps people would learn from an expert and pass a test, rather than learn from the internet and other fairly inexperienced horse owners on their yard sometimes, inadvertantly hopefully, causing sufffering to the animals in their care.
Basic professional knowledge in the UK and Switzerland that has been proved absolutely wrong in my lifetime, just off the top of my head.
Hosing horses off all over when they are hot causes colic.
Oats are a dangerous feed.
Barley is a good fattening food.
Horses can't eat oil.
Navicular is a progressive bone disease which needs corrective shoes. (It's not progressive and it's not normally a bone disease.)
Major tendon strains need complete box rest, horse not to leave the box (now known that causes adhesions).
Cold backed horses are just cold backed (actually frequently have kissing spines).
Horses that bite when you do up the girth need cross tying or a smack. (Actually need scoping for ulcers).
Bits should be fitted with 2 wrinkles at the corner of the mouth. (I've never liked this and found a few years that that the Spanish fit lower like I do. )
Don't feed horses before exercise. (Feeding now recommended to prevent acid splash and ulcers. )
Horses can go 8 hours without food without problems.
Haylage is bad for laminitis (the right haylage is lower sugar and can be better than hay made from the same grass. )
Which experts are going to set the test?
Hosing horses off all over when they are hot causes colic.
Oats are a dangerous feed.
Barley is a good fattening food.
Horses can't eat oil.
Navicular is a progressive bone disease which needs corrective shoes. (It's not progressive and it's not normally a bone disease.)
Major tendon strains need complete box rest, horse not to leave the box (now known that causes adhesions).
Cold backed horses are just cold backed (actually frequently have kissing spines).
Horses that bite when you do up the girth need cross tying or a smack. (Actually need scoping for ulcers).
Bits should be fitted with 2 wrinkles at the corner of the mouth. (I've never liked this and found a few years that that the Spanish fit lower like I do. )
Don't feed horses before exercise. (Feeding now recommended to prevent acid splash and ulcers. )
Horses can go 8 hours without food without problems.
Haylage is bad for laminitis (the right haylage is lower sugar and can be better than hay made from the same grass. )
Which experts are going to set the test?
Two BHS registered instructors within a week of each other regarding my then ultra fit (doing 50 mile rides and coming home bouncing) and also hunting pony.
- He’s in fantastic condition, look at those muscles, how nice to see a true hunting fit horse
- He’s very underweight, you can see all his ribs and hips.
Two judges at the same show regarding my young Connie, both affiliated to their breed societies
- That filly needs a lot more condition on her, make sure to feed her up and have you considered rugging? (placed last in M and M young stock)
- How nice to see a youngster that isn’t overtopped, she’s spot on (placed second in a strong open two and three year old class)
So which of those experts is right? Which one gets to set the test?
- He’s in fantastic condition, look at those muscles, how nice to see a true hunting fit horse
- He’s very underweight, you can see all his ribs and hips.
Two judges at the same show regarding my young Connie, both affiliated to their breed societies
- That filly needs a lot more condition on her, make sure to feed her up and have you considered rugging? (placed last in M and M young stock)
- How nice to see a youngster that isn’t overtopped, she’s spot on (placed second in a strong open two and three year old class)
So which of those experts is right? Which one gets to set the test?