French/Italian style close contact saddles

[Frumpoon]

I'm thinking of the Prestige/CWD/Amerigo/Equipe/Devoucoux style saddles

For years I've dismissed these an an overpriced gimmick designed to appeal to riders but ignores the comfort of the horse

So imagine my astonishment to find one of my horses much prefers this style to the traditional flocked, wooden tree, 2-4 fingers clearance type saddle

How? And Why?

Any jumping people or saddlers particularly got a view on this?

 

[Scarlett]

I've gotta ask - why did you think they were a gimmick?

I've only used these now for years, wouldn't know what to do with a flocked saddle. Never had a horse have an issue.

 

[milliepops]

I have a mixture of close contact, traditional wool and flair flocking, have had my equipe since 2012 and also haven't ever had an issue, my horses see the physio regularly and the only one that has any tightness in her back did so with all 3 types, it's just where her tension sorta gathered.

If it fits, it fits, I guess...?

 

[TheMule]

Every horse (and mule!) I have love my Prestige monoflaps. I love the saddle so much I have it in 3 different widths. They're ancient but they are so lightweight and just sit so beautifully on the horse

 

[Wheels]

If it fits, it fits, I guess...?

This pretty much! Horses for courses, some prefer traditional types, some treeless, some close contact. That's why it's so important to try different things

I wouldn't really call them a gimmick but I would say that the RRP is high for what they are. These brands sponsor a lot of riders with both saddles and direct cash sponsorship and fitters make about 1k per new saddle sold. Someone has to pay for all that plus the manufacturing and that is people who are happy to spend up to 4-5k on a saddle

It pays to find a good 2nd hand one

 

[milliepops]

Someone has to pay for all that plus the manufacturing and that is people who are happy to spend up to 4-5k on a saddle

It pays to find a good 2nd hand one

Oh jesus, yes. I was lucky, I won mine and have managed to use it on 3 horses so far... they all share rugs, bridles, everything else, I have told Salty the next generation also has to be 6'3 and medium-wide!

 

[Wheels]

Hehe! Is kira only MW?

 

[milliepops]

Hehe! Is kira only MW?

yup, she's built like a brick outhouse in other ways (needs XL over reach boots and most normal boots won't do up around her legs) but she's actually a bit narrower than Millie was so that's why she has a half pad. not one of the tabletop no-wither welshies.

 

[Frumpoon]

That's really useful, thanks everybody

I suppose I was sceptical of how comfortable for the horse the foam panel was and I was worried that not having the 2-4 fingers clearance would hurt or cause problems

One of the saddlers I use was also very disparaging about the plastic tree and the quality of the leather generally, I have to say they don't age as well as the Walsall saddles but if my horse likes it then he's having one!

 

[Nicnac]

I'm not keen on them as they are overpriced. I rode a 4 year old (not my horse) in a Childeric close contact recently and it was incredibly comfortable. Also had Jin stirrups which were lovely.

Got home and looked up pricing and gulped! They're not worth the money they charge imo. Also don't like the fact that they often have to be sent away to be adjusted and may not come back quite right. At least with flocking you can try it out there and then and adjust as necessary.

 

[Baywonder]

I wouldn't really call them a gimmick but I would say that the RRP is high for what they are. These brands sponsor a lot of riders with both saddles and direct cash sponsorship and fitters make about 1k per new saddle sold. Someone has to pay for all that plus the manufacturing and that is people who are happy to spend up to 4-5k on a saddle

This exactly. Obviously, everyone has their own preferences when it comes to saddles. However, the actual cost of materials to manufacture some saddles is a fraction of the cost charged to the horse owner at the end of the line. Unfortunately, paying a ridiculous amount for a saddle does not automatically mean you are getting the very best on the market. Like a lot of things, you are paying for the name, and all their associated costs as already stated by Wheels.

 

[ycbm]

That's really useful, thanks everybody

I suppose I was sceptical of how comfortable for the horse the foam panel was and I was worried that not having the 2-4 fingers clearance would hurt or cause problems

One of the saddlers I use was also very disparaging about the plastic tree and the quality of the leather generally, I have to say they don't age as well as the Walsall saddles but if my horse likes it then he's having one!

I have never understood the prejudice against moulded plastic trees. It isn't possible to use a natural material like wood and guarantee total symmetry. Plastic trees are also light.

But the saddles you are talking about are way overpriced and foam filling is available on others. I generally fit standard saddles with no more than 2 fingers clearance.
.

 

[suebou]

My devocoux(bought to so primarily) has been worth very penny with helping my old and broken body stay on my very very sharp(intermittently) big mare! Wasn’t previously a big fan but am a convert. It’s light, easy to do girth straps up when on, and it kills me to sayi love it!

 

[suebou]

Got it second hand, so although expensive, it didn’t make me weep!

 

[milliepops]

whether they are worth it or not is kind of subjective. No there's no way I could afford 4-5k for a saddle, I've never spent more than £1k on a horse! but the feel I get for dressage from my equipe is far superior to anything else I've ridden in and it is the most comfortable I've had. I know Wow say they got their name because people said Wow when sitting in them (I am also a happy Wow customer ) but I literally did go "WOW!" when the fitter came for my test ride & to take the order for mine, because it was so close and transferred all the movement through to my seat in a way I haven't ever felt with a traditional saddle. 2nd hand you can find old equipes for less than £1k now, I would buy another if I had to.

 

[Frumpoon]

I have never understood the prejudice against moulded plastic trees. It isn't possible to use a natural material like wood and guarantee total symmetry. Plastic trees are also light.

But the saddles you are talking about are way overpriced and foam filling is available on others. I generally fit standard saddles with no more than 2 fingers clearance.
.

Yep symmetry, another good point

 

[Scarlett]

That's really useful, thanks everybody

I suppose I was sceptical of how comfortable for the horse the foam panel was and I was worried that not having the 2-4 fingers clearance would hurt or cause problems

One of the saddlers I use was also very disparaging about the plastic tree and the quality of the leather generally, I have to say they don't age as well as the Walsall saddles but if my horse likes it then he's having one!

I disagree about the aging. I have, currently, 3x Barnsby, 1x Frank Baines and 2x Equipes - all bought second hand and all older models (can't afford new!) and the tattiest are two of the English leather Barnsby ones, admittedly they are the oldest but my Equipe jump isn't far off them age wise and looks much newer. I think calfskin can wear quicker than other leather but at the end of the day they still need looked after properly. I had a third Barnsby arrive this week for my new boy, it's the same model as the others and a similar age and it looks like new when it's many, many years old!

I like how light they are, and that the fit is much more forgiving than flocking. If one of mine loses weight I can pop a gel pad under, but if they bulk up the saddle still fits them. The Equipes are adjustable too, only once, so there is a little leeway if you swap horses or have one on a growing youngster.

I find the flat panels and wide channel just sit nicely and can genuinely say the only one I had an issue with was a Devoucoux that got too tight so I sold it and got and Equipe dressage instead which solved the problem. My horses are exracers and homebred mostly TB so a similar shape but I love the flexibility of being able to use my dressage on them all or swap a saddle from one to another. I've never had an issue with backs apart from our older exracer who came to us cold backed and it was greatly improved when we went from a tradional flocked saddle (fitted to him) to a cc jump and a sheepskin half pad. He's been wearing that now for years.

As a rider I now find flocked saddles way too bulky, I love the feel of my saddles and where they put my leg.

As with everything, common sense must be applied. Any saddle can fit badly but the most important opinion is the horse, if they are happy we must listen.

 

[Scarlett]

whether they are worth it or not is kind of subjective. No there's no way I could afford 4-5k for a saddle, I've never spent more than £1k on a horse! but the feel I get for dressage from my equipe is far superior to anything else I've ridden in and it is the most comfortable I've had. I know Wow say they got their name because people said Wow when sitting in them (I am also a happy Wow customer ) but I literally did go "WOW!" when the fitter came for my test ride & to take the order for mine, because it was so close and transferred all the movement through to my seat in a way I haven't ever felt with a traditional saddle. 2nd hand you can find old equipes for less than £1k now, I would buy another if I had to.

I had the same in my Equipe dressage the first time I cantered. It felt good in the walk and trot but the canter left me feeling like we were connected, and my horse just moved so much better. Was 900 second hand (from a member on here) and an absolute bargain. I love it.

I joke that all future horse purchases must fit in it...

 

[Frumpoon]

So what other decent brands can I consider in the close contact bracket ?

 

[Scarlett]

Cc jump I assume?

Frank Baines do some. I have the Elan but they are rare, there's the Reflex and another I can't remember right at this moment.

Barnsby Whitaker and the Milton are old school cc saddles. You can pick a Milton up for not very much, one on fb for £220 I nearly bought that looks in good condition. The Whitaker are hens teeth rare (I have 3) but absolutely glorious to ride in.

Zaldi have a cc jump, not sure if it's name but it's nice. Standard cc feel to riding in it.

There's a couple more I can't think of at this minute.. Need a coffee!

 

[quizzie]

I have used the Stephens close contact jumping saddles for years...they are based on the Pessoa with a nice wide gullet, and forward cut....message me if you would like photo/info...as I just might (cough/cough) have one looking for a home!

 

[Frumpoon]

Cc jump I assume?

Frank Baines do some. I have the Elan but they are rare, there's the Reflex and another I can't remember right at this moment.

Barnsby Whitaker and the Milton are old school cc saddles. You can pick a Milton up for not very much, one on fb for £220 I nearly bought that looks in good condition. The Whitaker are hens teeth rare (I have 3) but absolutely glorious to ride in.

Zaldi have a cc jump, not sure if it's name but it's nice. Standard cc feel to riding in it.

There's a couple more I can't think of at this minute.. Need a coffee!

Ahhh the old barnsby'....I had one but it made my bum hurt

Zaldi is Spanish leather I think - how does it age, is it ok?

 

[Frumpoon]

I have used the Stephens close contact jumping saddles for years...they are based on the Pessoa with a nice wide gullet, and forward cut....message me if you would like photo/info...as I just might (cough/cough) have one looking for a home!

Are they on a straight tree like the Pessoa or do they vary?

 

[quizzie]

They are certainly fairly flat in the seat, with the points facing down rather than forward....Definitely not a deep curvy tree.....as with others, I find this type of saddle fits a wide variety of horses.! My problem is fitting myself into the saddle, as I have a long hip-knee distance.

 

[Scarlett]

Ahhh the old barnsby'....I had one but it made my bum hurt

Zaldi is Spanish leather I think - how does it age, is it ok?

Yeah, the Milton's aren't the most comfortable! Love the Whitaker though. Genuinely a beautiful saddle to ride in.

My friend had an older Zaldi and honestly it was aging well! I was surprised by the quality, and the comfort.

 

[Frumpoon]

What's the difference between the whitaker and the Milton?

I can't tell just from the stock photos on google

 

[Scarlett]

What's the difference between the whitaker and the Milton?

I can't tell just from the stock photos on google

Milton is flatter and more forward cut, the Whitaker has a deeper seat and you can ride longer in it. I liked my Milton for jumping but I didn't feel it was great on the flat. The Whitaker let's you do both.

 

[muddy_grey]

I have an old Prestige and love it. I got it second hand for £800 and it still looks great. I sold a horse and the new owner insisted on riding in a flocked, bulky saddle (it was fitted) the horse ended up refusing to let her get on. Technically it fit, but she hated it!

 

[sbloom]

I have never understood the prejudice against moulded plastic trees. It isn't possible to use a natural material like wood and guarantee total symmetry. Plastic trees are also light.

Wood has more flex than a solid plastic tree like the Simatree, I have not seen those in continental saddles in the flesh, they may not be solid in the seat. Guaranteed symmetry is a bit of a tall story, they come off a production line hot and have to be cooled, in some factories they are hung from a single hook and then warmed and "straightened" before making the saddle. This is a process almost identical to that required by a traditional saddle who will work on a tree, checking symmetry, before webbing and straining the seat. Many companies that make plastic treed saddles will pay piecework on a production line rather than having one person put together a saddle as would be the case with a bench made saddle. I'll leave you to ponder that one.

Are they on a straight tree like the Pessoa or do they vary?

Pessoas aren't all flat, some have very narrow rails even if they have a relatively open seat, but some are flatter front to back than others.

In my experience these brands can work okay for many average sports horse backs that aren't too wide and aren't too flat and there are enough to choose from that many people will find one that their horse loves and there's no issue with that whatsoever, the horse's opinion is always the most important. The rails tend to be narrow and can pinch around T13 especially on wider horses. The channel being wide doesn't mean the rails are wide, have a good feel around, the panels should support maybe 2/3 of the width of the rail, even in English saddles this isn't often the case on saddles made deliberately with a wide twist. Then these continental and English saddles, with upright narrow rails, are fitted up to XXW, it's just not a great recipe. And not always good on flatter backs. And depends on the fitter as with all saddles.

Italian brands have way more options for the horse, the better known of the French brands are very limited in their fitting options for the horse, some have more options (I have heard of a Highland wearing one, I'd love to see the saddle....).

 

[Frumpoon]

That's really really useful, thanks Steph!

I need to look more into this then

Horse is helpful in that he plants and refuses to go forward when there's an issue he's not happy about, last time it was the flock saddle making him sore. He's started doing this again so I'm guessing the close contact doesn't fit as well as it didn't when I first got it. He's put on a load of weight so that's not surprising but as I can't get a saddle fitting right now I'll have a tinker with the pads and if that's doesn't help I'll just have to work him in hand until lockdown is over.