Front feet issues

[emfen1305]

I will post here as didn't have much luck on my MRI post. Buddy had his MRI scan on both front feet and right pastern yesterday morning and now anxiously waiting the results which should come through on Friday but I am worried The x-rays came back clear on his pedal bone, navicular bone and the joints around it bar a small spur on his right pastern and some extra bits on his coffin joint which may or may not be important depending on he MRI.

Honestly I have only ever dealt with horses with hind end issues but feet just baffle me. He presented with poor performance and struggling with certain things in the school (downward transitions from canter to trot and medium trot are the two worse areas that have just seen no improvement over the last few months) and I called the vet 2 weeks ago after he looked short on the lunge. At the vets, the lameness was intermittent, more obvious on the straight and only showed on whichever leg was on the outside on the lunge which vet found unusual. I rode in the arena to work him hard and showed the medium trot (or lack of) and the downward transitions and vet felt there was a lot of push from behind and has an active hind end but almost like he had nowhere to go, he was reluctant to stretch out with his front legs. Blocked positive to both front feet and became a delight to lunge and then went to xray and the MRI.

Has anyone had experience of anything similar this? I know I should just wait for the MRI scan results but I am worried and feel like I need to read something or prepare myself for outcomes or just do something as feeling useless!

 

[ycbm]

Em loads of people have dealt with similar issues and I'm sure plenty of people want to help, but we need to know what the MRI says, particularly about the bone spurs, first.

Does he have shoes on usually?

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[emfen1305]

I w

Em loads of people have dealt with similar issues and I'm sure plenty of people want to help, but we need to know what the MRI says, particularly about the bone spurs, first.

Does he have shoes on usually?

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I think I was just hoping someone might read it and think it sounded familiar and be able to share what their experience was. Vet is understandably being very guarded about prognosis until she has all of the details but just feel so useless having no idea what it could be.

Yes usually has front shoes on, I tried him barefoot in winter because he has good feet and he did not cope at all despite doing everything that was recommended. I’m now starting to think that whatever is going on might have contributed to that

 

[ycbm]

My experience is one that's going to worry you, I'm sorry. The only barefoot rehab I've been involved with which failed was the one which had a bone spur on the navicular. The 'extra bits on the coffin bone' and the bone spur on the pastern are also concerning, which is why I was waiting for the MRI result.

Your problem on Friday will be that if his issues are mostly soft tissue related, your vets advice is likely to be very different from the recommendation you'll get from forum members about barefoot rehabs. But if you are going through insurance then you will have to go with your vet's advice.

Fingers crossed that you get a clear answer with a good prognosis tomorrow. I feel for you, you went through so much with your last horse

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[emfen1305]

The vet said the bits on the coffin joint ( they had a name that I can’t remember) could be normal depending on MRI results but the small spur on the pastern obviously isn’t. She couldn’t see anything on either navicular bone and said he had good foot balance but could be slightly improved.

I’m not overly fussed about keeping him barefoot, I’ll do whatever it takes to keep him happy and sound. He’s coping ok at the moment going to and from the field but I don’t think that will be the vets long term recommendation. I expect heart bars will be suggested at some point!

I’m just trying to be pragmatic and make sure I don’t get taken down one route and one route only like last time and end up missing the bigger stuff.

 

[be positive]

Your vet has done things the other way round to how mine dealt with one that was slightly, less than 1/10th lame on one front, we blocked over 2 days doing bit by bit to pin point the area as exactly as possible, nothing showed on xrays, it was found to be in one part but horse was not mine so my memory has failed on what it was, the next stage would have been MRI but the advice was to give him 4 weeks and if not right to then go for MRI, it turned out to be deep bruising that resolved but the reason I posted is although the MRI will give a better picture it will not tell you which bit is causing the issue and may not give a definitive answer, if it does not then get more blocks done to rule in or out each area.

 

[emfen1305]

My vet doesn't suspect anything too horrendous based on how is he presenting but I am starting to wonder whether i've gone too soon with him or whether I should have given him more time. He went out like a hooligan this morning, luckily the ground is soft. I suppose I'll find out more (or not) tomorrow.

 

[emfen1305]

Ok so finally have some results results after a long day! He has:
- synovitis in both coffin joints - treatment will be steroids in both
- early start of navicular in the right fore - treatment will be Tildren
- desmitis in both front collateral ligaments - treatment is shockwave therapy
- he’s also having heart bars for 2-3 cycles. I am a bit skeptical but I’m going through insurance so following the vets advice!

So she said not a disaster and no arthritic changes and all treatable. I don’t know about any of these things so will do a sufficient amount of googling but I am hoping he will be able to return to full work and compete in dressage or is that too optimistic? Will he just be a happy hack?

 

[Goldenstar]

All the horses I have have seen intermittently not right with the limb on the outside of a circle have had soft tissue issues in the feet .
A good vet can block different parts of the foot thats what I would be considering or saving money taking the shoes off and getting a sensible trimmer on board .

 

[Goldenstar]

We cross posted .
I would be going BF for all of that and taking time .
Those are all Imv man made issues and a long shoeing break with carefully controlled exercise will help as much as anything .
I understand the insurance situation sends you down the route you are taking .
But that’s an awful lot of stuff to do to horses foot .
Are his heels level and evenly sized ?

 

[TheMule]

It's good that you can medicate it all, but you really want to know why it happened in the first place- that all goes beyond normal wear and tear.
Any clues provided by the vets?

 

[emfen1305]

I asked the vet probable cause she and she said could have been bad shoeing before (he came with truly appalling feet), conformation (he is bum high), age (unlikely in his case), surface in the arena (we had a very deep surface in my old arena and the arena where he was before also was deep sand) or hooleying around and then not showing obvious lameness so was continued to work which make the initial problem snowball into other problems and a couple of other things but I forgot to write them down!

My understanding of desmitis in ligaments is it’s secondary to other things going on around it (that’s what I learnt from my old his and his hind pad anyway!) so not so sure on what the primary issue is!

I know barefoot rehab is popular for navicular rehab and other foot issues but I have to go the way I’m going due to insurance as vet recommendation. His feet are well balanced considering how they were when they came and xrays showed minor improvements can be made and I’m not sure I really have the right facilities for barefoot rehab as I’m on just a normal livery yard (and I certainly can’t afford to send him to Rockley!) I did try barefoot over the winter and he really didn’t cope well at all, again I just don’t think I had the right facilities for it despite everything else being done to the letter (trim, diet and boots).

Just ETA more about the barefoot - we tried October - February and I followed every bit of advice from the FB page and here, I bought boots, had him looked at by farrier and trimmer but he became progressively worse, he was practically hobbling across the flat concrete by Feb - maybe it wasn't long enough and maybe I should have had him looked at by the vet at that point but the shoes went back on, he was instantly fine and I buried my head in the sand about the whole thing so for now I am going to follow vet advice..

 

[gunnergundog]

If he is bum high, either due to conformation or poor posture - or both - look at addressing how he holds himself as this will have a significant impact on the loading on his feet.

 

[emfen1305]

If he is bum high, either due to conformation or poor posture - or both - look at addressing how he holds himself as this will have a significant impact on the loading on his feet.

Thanks - any ideas? We do straightness training once a week and carrot stretches most days ( though could up this to every day!) and he sees the physio as routine everything 3 months

 

[gunnergundog]

Carrot stretches are a static way to work on flexibility and core engagement. You need to achieve this in motion too!

I don't know, but suspect that straightness training is what some of us oldies have been doing for ages, but without the smart marketing behind it! Look up Manolo Mendez, Klaus Shoenreich et al. Ultimately (for rehab), the horse needs to be working with the back up, neck out, nose in front and somewhere between the elbow and hip whilst tracking up and the outside hind on the circle NOT going off at a tangent. All of this too whilst being relaxed and rhythmic. Depending on where you are starting from, this can take yonks to achieve and may mean just working in hand for ages.

You need good eyes on the ground, good advice and someone to guide you if you haven't done this before, but it is so worth it in the long run. Oh, and doing the above whilst only using a cavesson or serrata....no gizmos or gadgets.

When he is utilising his body correctly then the loading on the feet will alter...this is a top down approach! You obviously need to implement a bottom up approach too, with a good farrier/trimmer on board.

Good luck.

 

[Goldenstar]

Have a look on you tube at stuff on equine top line syndrome .
Equitropia I think that who posts it .
Lots of these issues and things like psd are caused by how the horse uses its body .

 

[ester]

ST is what some of you have been doing for ages but packaged in a way that is a bit more understandable step/by step for those of us without that background . All in a cavesson .

 

[Melody Grey]

Ok so finally have some results results after a long day! He has:
- synovitis in both coffin joints - treatment will be steroids in both
- early start of navicular in the right fore - treatment will be Tildren
- desmitis in both front collateral ligaments - treatment is shockwave therapy
- he’s also having heart bars for 2-3 cycles. I am a bit skeptical but I’m going through insurance so following the vets advice!

So she said not a disaster and no arthritic changes and all treatable. I don’t know about any of these things so will do a sufficient amount of googling but I am hoping he will be able to return to full work and compete in dressage or is that too optimistic? Will he just be a happy hack?

Good that you have some answers and somewhere to work from. I'm afraid I have no experience of any of the combination of issues there, but just wondered how long your vet thinks the treatments will be effective for? I realise you're somewhat confined to vets guidance because of your insurance, but I wonder what their advice/prognosis would be if you were uninsured? Just a musing, but a question I'd be asking.

Throwing the kitchen sink at it might be the fastest way, but is it the lasting way?

 

[Northern Hare]

Your horse's diagnosis sounds very similar to my horse approx 18 years ago (with the exception of the Navicular). I still have him and he's still in light work at 27! He's TBxWB. His coffin joints were medicated at the time which did make a big difference and they weren't remedicated after that first time. His feet balance was also improved although one foot is still a bit smaller in size than the other.

Looking back, I think a deep school surface aggravated the problem - and in hindsight I think I probably did too much work in the school with him as the hacking was very limited where he was at livery at the time.

The view of the specialist equine vet at the time was that a ménage (and hence tight corners) was the very worst thing ever invented for horses!

I brought him back into work slowly and moved yards to one where I could do more hacking and then I just had to limit the amount of work in the school.

He would be sound and in work then if I had a competition to aim for I had to be very careful I didn't overdo the prep.

In the end he just became a very happy hacker, but at least he's still fit and well, but it was disappointing as he was a lovely horse who had all the ability to go far - albeit probably not with me!

 

[emfen1305]

Good that you have some answers and somewhere to work from. I'm afraid I have no experience of any of the combination of issues there, but just wondered how long your vet thinks the treatments will be effective for? I realise you're somewhat confined to vets guidance because of your insurance, but I wonder what their advice/prognosis would be if you were uninsured? Just a musing, but a question I'd be asking.

Throwing the kitchen sink at it might be the fastest way, but is it the lasting way?

How long is a piece of string! I did ask and she said we need to just take it bit by bit in terms of improvement and then it was another how long is a piece of string for how long it will last. I think it mainly depends on whether it’s the primary problem, how he reacts to the treatment and how lucky I am! To be honest, if he wasn’t insured I probably would have just done the nerve blocks and then medicated, I think the outcome would have been mostly the same but without the MRI we wouldn’t have known about the navicular because the xrays were clean. Insurance is a wonderful thing because it allows you to do everything you can to find out what’s wrong but sometimes investigations throw up red herrings and it forces you to move quickly. I think the year rest in a field with no shoes works great but that’s really hard for people like me who can only afford one horse and are on a livery yard paying a lot of money!

I pretty much threw everything at my last horse, he was medicated in his hocks, had psd surgery, remedial shoeing and was booked in for stifle arthroscopy and probably a ligament snip but I called it a day before then because he was never going to be sound enough to ride, so I’m a bit more realistic this time round. I’ll do what needs to be done but if he starts to struggle then I have to think about my options and may be be a bit selfish because I do want to be out competing and I can only afford to run one horse!

 

[emfen1305]

Thanks @Northern Hare

I think the surface may have been the start of our problems, in his old home he was pretty much only ridden in the arena and then turned out in there in winter, coupled with a bad farrier job must have had something to do with it.

Luckily the arena at my new yard isn’t deep and there’s plenty of hacking, albeit on the road, so I can do a variety of work and do try and do that. I think after this I’ll definitely be sacking off the lunging as only did it twice a month anyway, it was just an easy way to get some quick work out of him!

My ambition is to affiliate up to Novice so I’m hoping he will be capable but I’m going to ask the vet to be as realistic as possible with me as want us to both to be happy!