Front hooves. Worried - am I being paranoid? (Also in NL)

nikicb

nikicb

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Sorry in advance if this is long.

I noticed yesterday that my 13'3" part arab gelding (17 years old) had some brown/red marks on the toes of his front hooves. These could have been there for ages, but now I've noticed them, of course I am worrying about them.

I guess the thing I am most concerned about is whether they are an indication that he has had/is having a bout a laminitis. Or something else? I have never actually experienced laminitis and he is displaying no other symptoms, but I think that there can sometimes be some blood produced and was wondering whether this is what I am seeing on his toes. Sorry if this sounds totally stupid, I am just grasping at straws here.

He apparently had laminitis before the people I bought him from got him (so 4 or more years ago). I am especially careful about his care/feeding etc. He has soaked hay, a scoop of hi fi lite am and pm, and a couple of handfuls of hi fibre nuts, although hasn't been having these the past couple of weeks as he hasn't been ridden due to the weather. When the weather was really bad he also had horsehage in the field - but the blue lami friendly one and not more than around a section a day. I am also careful about turning out on sunny frosty mornings, but will turn out on days when the frost doesn't lift at all.

I understand that laminitis can arise from concussion and the ground has been terribly hard and frozen recently. But as mine have been out every day even in the bad weather, he hasn't been going mad, maybe the odd trot and canter round, but I've certainly not seen any rodeo antics going on.

He seems totally sound walking across the concrete yard, and my son rode him mainly in walk, but a couple of short trots in the field today and there didn't seem to be anything wrong. No heat in the feet either before or after exercise.

He isn't overweight, in fact he has (intentionally) lost the belly he had on him when we bought him in August. And when he is stood still his stance doesn't indicate anything untoward. He is bright and eating/drinking/pooing normally.

I've taken a few pictures. Really hope someone can put my mind at rest and tell me I'm being paranoid, but it's niggling me.

Raff12-12-10d.jpg


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I wouldn't worry to much - they look like small bruises at the toe - very common at this time of year considering the weather (hard, frosty ground). They are only very small and certainly shouldn't cause any lameness etc. You sound like you are doing everything right - really, don't worry. You horse looks fine weight wise to, especially for this time of year.
 
TheBlack said:
Probably just bruised. Has he got rings on his hooves? I'd be more concerned about the hind feet! They look rather short!
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Thanks for the reply. No, no rings, in fact he has very smooth feet and when the farrier came last time he said they were good and strong.

I'm not sure the hind feet are short. Took another photo this evening - see below. Note that he had his back shoes taken off about 12 weeks ago and has been trimmed once since. The nail holes are nearly at the bottom now, so they don't look their best, but next time they are trimmed the nail holes should be pretty much gone. Do you still think they look too short in this picture? (Sorry the lighting is funny, it was dark and we don't have brilliant lighting in the yard yet.)

Raff12-12-10e.jpg
 
louisesb said:
I wouldn't worry to much - they look like small bruises at the toe - very common at this time of year considering the weather (hard, frosty ground). They are only very small and certainly shouldn't cause any lameness etc. You sound like you are doing everything right - really, don't worry. You horse looks fine weight wise to, especially for this time of year.
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Thanks so much. I feel much reassured now by your post and the replies I got in New Lounge, but happy that I asked. I would always rather run things by people and appear silly, than not do anything and it be worse than I thought. I've had horses for years, but always on a yard - diy and full livery. Now I keep the ponies at home. I love it, but do miss the opportunity of another pair of horse owner eyes to look at something. My husband cares about the horses, but knows nothing really about them - when I was looking at Raffy's feet earlier, he asked if the 'shoe man' was coming soon. :) Bless, at least he tries! The farrier is in fact coming in a week, but I know if I was worried I could call him to come earlier.

It's a bit difficult to tell his weight by the photo alone, but I can feel but not see his ribs, so I think that's about right.
 
Looks to me like the farrier has brought his toes back - the white is the unpigmented hoof beyond the waterline and the brown is probably rust being taken up in to the more open hoof material from the shoes.

Doesn't look like bruising so don;t panic.

However these feet would look much nicer without the shoes :)
 
They look fine to me! only comment is that the farrier could possible get a slightly long shoe so that the end comes a bit further back to support the heel a bit more but im no expert (lol just learnt loads about shoeing and feet at uni)
 
brucea said:
Looks to me like the farrier has brought his toes back - the white is the unpigmented hoof beyond the waterline and the brown is probably rust being taken up in to the more open hoof material from the shoes.

Doesn't look like bruising so don;t panic.

However these feet would look much nicer without the shoes :)
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Thanks for your reply - panicking a little less now!! He's been shod twice now with my current farrier (I moved area and bought this pony in the summer). He didn't have toe clips before and actually pretty poor quality shoes when I bought him. I think my farrier is pretty good. He explains things vouluntarily and is used by a lot of the local vets and was none too impressed with Raffy's previous shoeing. He is also well recommended by people on HHO (searched for him before I employed him!).

I was wondering why the tip of the hoof was light coloured when the leg is dark. On my old girl, she has black hooves where her legs are black and a white hoof where she has one white coronet. We've had Raffy since August and I've had the backs taken off. I have been wondering about the fronts as well. He has quite good feet I think. I'm not a particular activist for either school of thought, but don't see why I should bother paying for shoes if they don't need them. My Sec A is unshod.

I would value any further opinions as there is always plenty to learn about horses. :)
 
Looks like his toes might have been a wee bit on the long side and the farrier is pulling them back a bit. But I'd prefer to see more behind the hoof.

P.S> they are all white inside - the pigmentation is usually only in the outer half of the wall from the water line out..
 
The back feet aren't short, the front ones are "stacked" - too high. The back feet are a normal length for barefoot feet (the toe is still too long but that will come back, in time) and the front ones would get a lot shorter if you could take the shoes off those as well - see these front ones on my hunter:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/TOvlktjYQHI/AAAAAAAAAqg/NHHYx77wYNo/s1600/Coming+Down+WR.jpg

I agree with Bruce, the brown looks like rust off the shoe. All inner hoof wall is unpigmented and your farrier has removed the outer (dark) hoof wall, which is both normal and of no consequence.
 
If it is bruising it happened a few months ago and is growing out. Impossible to tell from photos, but in the 3rd photo it looks like the growth ring just above the nail holes are indicating some degree of laminitis. Certainly the heels look longer than I would be happy with.
 
Blimey, they're rather long those feet. I wouldn't worry about the marks though, I think they're linked to the hot shoeing process - scorch marks.
 
Thanks everyone for your replies. I feel much happier about the marks now.

It's interesting though to see the differences on opinion on whether his feet are long, short etc. I guess shoeing/management of the foot varies and and everyone has their personal preference. But I've learnt a lot from reading your replies.

But just to recap, the farrier is coming out this week (prebooked, not because I've posted this thread). It's been six weeks since the last visit. It will be only the third time since I've had him to do this pony and the backs have only been taken off for about 12 weeks. I would far rather any changes are made gradually and it will take a little time for the efforts of my new farrier to be noticeable.
 
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intouch said:
Impossible to tell from photos, but in the 3rd photo it looks like the growth ring just above the nail holes are indicating some degree of laminitis.
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He certainly hasn't exhibited any lami signs since I had him and the previous owners were very careful with him. He also passed a 5 stage vetting with a vet I trust, and I would have thought this would have been picked up. I wonder if this is because of a change in pasture - i.e. when I bought him in August?
 
Sorry - whether or not your horse has laminitis needs an expert on site diagnosis.

But putting that to one side - if that were my horse I would be unhappy with that shoeing job.
 
LucyPriory said:
Sorry - whether or not your horse has laminitis needs an expert on site diagnosis.
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Thank you for your reply. I was very happy that he wasn't showing any normal signs of laminitis, but agree I am no expert. I do however know that he has been totally sound, bright and displaying normal behaviour ever since I have had him. Had he been anything else, the vet would have been called straight away. I was really asking about the red marks, and whether they were an indication of a problem. I have just never seen them before, and will double check with my farrier when he comes this week. In the same way that I am neurotic about preventing my other pony getting colic (he has had spasmodic colic 3 times in the 11 years I have had him, actually while he was on full livery, but in no way am I apportioning any blame), I am very wary about laminitis with my good doers. I would never forgive myself if I had missed a symptom that I wasn't aware of which is why I asked the question.

LucyPriory said:
But putting that to one side - if that were my horse I would be unhappy with that shoeing job.
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It would be great if you can tell me what you think is wrong - I am very willing to learn and understand about different preferences for shoeing/management of feet. But please note as I said before that the farrier is coming out this week (prebooked, not because I've posted this thread). It's been six weeks since the last visit. It will be only the third time I've had him to do this pony and the backs have only been taken off for about 12 weeks. I would far rather any changes are made gradually and it will take a little time for the efforts of my new farrier to be noticeable. In your opinion, do the feet look that bad because he is due a visit, or should they still be looking good 6 weeks down the line?
 
nikicb

It is very hard to spot the very early signs of laminitis when a horse has shoes on.

However if a horse is not maintaining the healing angle to the ground and/or has multiple event lines these should prompt further investigation.

It is impossible to tell properly from photos, but it would appear that event lines have been rasped out. The toe has been dumped somewhat and the heel is in suspension.

Heels need to be 'engaged' not hanging around in mid air. See here http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/in-suspension.html which might show better what I mean.

Check whether the foot is contracted. It looks like it could be. And when the shoes come off next time - before the shoe goes back on check where the nails have been.
 
LucyPriory said:
nikicb

It is very hard to spot the very early signs of laminitis when a horse has shoes on.

However if a horse is not maintaining the healing angle to the ground and/or has multiple event lines these should prompt further investigation.

It is impossible to tell properly from photos, but it would appear that event lines have been rasped out. The toe has been dumped somewhat and the heel is in suspension.

Heels need to be 'engaged' not hanging around in mid air. See here http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/in-suspension.html which might show better what I mean.

Check whether the foot is contracted. It looks like it could be. And when the shoes come off next time - before the shoe goes back on check where the nails have been.
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Thanks again for your help. This is very useful. I am assuming that we are now only discussing the fronts as the backs are now unshod and will gradually adjust to being so.

Having looked at your link, I understand about the heel and agree that Raffy's are hanging around a bit. I will look at these when his feet are done this week.

In terms of the event lines, we have had him around 5 months now. So is that around 1/2 to 3/4 of a hoof's growth? Presumably the change in grazing would have caused some difference?

I don't really know/understand what I need to check re the contraction/nail holes. Will ask the farrier, but if you were able to explain a little further I would appreciate it. Sorry, if I sound ignorant about these matters, but am really trying to do the right thing for my lot whether that be shoes, part shoeing (fronts only), or unshod.
 
nikicb - please don't think of yourself as ignorant - at least you are trying to find things out.

When I see nails at certain positions on the hoof I am often left wondering which part of the foot they are going through.

There is a photo on this post http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/do-horseshoes-hurt-horses.html which shows an 'ideal' nail placement. The shoe was nailed onto a cadaver foot under vet supervision.

However when a foot is creeping forward some hoof care professionals try and address the long low angles by rasping away the outer hoof wall. One of the consequences is that they are then left with precious little to put the nail into.
 
Yep, looks like scorch marks from hot shoeing.

Def agree with the 'too long' comments tho - his back feet look a good length and like little 'teacups'. The front feet I'd describe as 'tube-feet' (not a techincal description :o) - like tin cans.

I wouldn't be happy with that shoeing. No idea how you'd sort it with shoes on but I'd have the shoes off for a couple of months, let them spread and shorten (pedal bones tightens and lifts, sole exfoliates etc) then rethink about shoeing if its not suiting him.

I wouldn't worry about the 'event lines' too much - just a simple change in diet can cause them. They seem pretty faint and the gaps between rings is no wider at the heels than the toes (classic sign of lami). However if he struggles to cope barefoot it's usually a sign the diet doesn't suit him and you need to rethink about grass and cereals and sugars.
 
I wouldn't be too hasty about dismissing the shoeing as a bad job when this particular farrier has only seen the horse twice- we have no idea what the feet looked like before this farrier took the horse on.
 
That's true about the Farrier. However I don't believe the things pointed out can be fixed in shoes by even the best Farrier.
 
millitiger said:
I wouldn't be too hasty about dismissing the shoeing as a bad job when this particular farrier has only seen the horse twice- we have no idea what the feet looked like before this farrier took the horse on.
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Thank you. I guess this is what I was trying to say above. The farrier comes well recommended and works a lot with the local vets' practices. I also did a search on here for his name and the only criticism anyone came up with (out of quite a few mentions) was letting his apprentices do a little too much. I had a chat with him about this and he now only has one apprentice who only works with direct supervision. When he comes out this week I will chat with him, but he does talk about his work and has 'a plan' rather than just whipping one set off and sticking another on without thinking about it.

I am seriously considering having the fronts taken off as well. The backs have stayed pretty strong even with the nail holes growing out and he hasn't broken off chunks of hoof so hopefully the fronts will stand up to it. I am not really in one camp or another, but would like the best for each horse/pony. My old girl (3/4 TB) is fully shod, always has been and at 34 I'm not changing it. My section A is unshod, always has been. I've only had Raff a few months so still working out what's best.

But I would just like to say that I am very grateful for everyone's input and I have learnt a lot from your postings. Thank you. :)
 
I just wanted to post a quick update as the farrier has now been. Thankfully he has a 4x4 van as we are 1 1/2 miles down a windy and hilly single track lane and it is no fun in this snow!

He said the marks may have been old bruising or colour from the shoe, but certainly nothing to worry about. He has checked both the ponies and there is no sign of any laminitis, which I thought anyway, but being the paranoid sort, it's nice to have the reassurance. He has also taught me exactly where I can feel for a raised digital pulse. He's very helpful, and never minds how many questions I ask him, which is good as it's a lot!

I have had the fronts taken off. What swung it for me was the fact that for the past couple of days, Raffy has had compacted ice/snow in his front hooves and I really don't want this to happen, but do like to keep turning out at least for a few hours a day so they don't go crazy when the snow goes. I'll see how it goes, when the weather gets better and we can get out and about a bit more, he may need them back on, but time will tell.

Anyway, I have taken a few photos, and would welcome comments. Do they look better than before? Note, this is the third time of trimming for no backs, and the first time for no fronts. Constructive advice would be appreciated. Many thanks. :)

Raff21-12-2010a.jpg


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Raff21-12-2010c.jpg
 
Bravo, I like your farrier's work and I agreed with him about the discolouration being due to the hot shoeing process.

I hope you're happy now, your pony's feet look happier
 
Andalucian said:
Bravo, I like your farrier's work and I agreed with him about the discolouration being due to the hot shoeing process.

I hope you're happy now, your pony's feet look happier
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Thanks! I thought they looked better, and although he may be a bit 'footy' with the hard ground with the shoes newly off, I would rather have that than have the ice packed in the hooves. He's not getting ridden at the moment anyway. :)
 
He will be footy, but let him take his time and go at his own speed. Once the snow and freezing temperatures have gone, keep his feet infection free and he'll be fine.
 
It's a good start, lots of people would be very happy to have feet like that straight away. I hope it all goes well for you both.
 
That looks so much more like proper feet! I'd still be keeping an eye on the way the event lines on the fronts seem to be running down into the heel, from the photos, and watching the diet.
 
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