frosty grass - the rule??

[cob&onion]

Okay so the weather man says hard frost on Saturday morning - my horses (cobs) both live out 24/7 rugless, no hay as of yet as still a fair bit of grass (there fat ) Am i right in thinking that its just horses who have been stabled who get turned out on frosty grass are more likely to get lami of it than say my horses who live out?
Can someone clear this up for me!
Thanks

 

[Spot_the_Risk]

Can't help, other than to say mine have been living out for six years, all have been good doers, probably condition score currently 4 on two of them, 3 on the others, and I've never had a problem... *crosses fingers, and hopes I haven't jinxed myself!*

 

[cob&onion]

anyone else?

 

[Dora5]

I would say they will be fine, if they aren't prone to it then I don't think you need to worry. Mine has had it in past but he is out 24/7 at the moment and will be for another 2 weeks, I think the frosty grass can sometimes be an issue when there is bright sunshine but normally only if the horses are very sensitive to laminitis. Might be worth a quick google search if you are worried

 

[Jools1234]

I would say they will be fine, if they aren't prone to it then I don't think you need to worry. Mine has had it in past but he is out 24/7 at the moment and will be for another 2 weeks, I think the frosty grass can sometimes be an issue when there is bright sunshine but normally only if the horses are very sensitive to laminitis. Might be worth a quick google search if you are worried

the frost combined with sun increases the sugar in the grass, all horses are at risk of laminitis due to that increase in sugar-some believe frosty grass causes colic but as it is very rare in wild ponies i think that risk if it exists is minimal.

frosty grass on a sunny morning is a laminitis risk to all horses and ponies and it is not only those that are prone

my cousins pony had his first bout of lami age 12yrs on christmas day a few yrs ago, the following yr he colicked on christmas day he obviously did not like christmas

 

[Ladyinred]

I am in no way saying there is no risk for those turned out 24/7.. there is always a risk. But the risk is lower than a horse turned out in the morning onto frosty grass and who will then gorge it because he has been deprived of grass all night and the frost makes it extra sweet.

 

[Jools1234]

the frost combined with sun increases the sugar in the grass, all horses are at risk of laminitis due to that increase in sugar-some believe frosty grass causes colic but as it is very rare in wild ponies i think that risk if it exists is minimal.

frosty grass on a sunny morning is a laminitis risk to all horses and ponies and it is not only those that are prone

my cousins pony had his first bout of lami age 12yrs on christmas day a few yrs ago, the following yr he colicked on christmas day he obviously did not like christmas

sorry just to add the above pony lived out 24/7 till he was 19yrs

 

[missyclare]

What happens is that that when the sun comes out, the sugar in the grass goes up the blade to meet it. By 11am its arrived. After sunset, the sugar goes down the blade again, to the base of the blade by about 11pm. This is why it is safer to pasture a horse at night when the sugars are lower. Safer to cut hay first thing in the morning.
When frost hits, everything is frozen in place. The sugar didn't go down the blade because it got locked in its tracks from the cold, so the sugar stays high in the blade and its just as sweet at night as it is in day.
When there is drought, the sugar goes down to the base again and stores sugar, waiting for a rain. If the horse is eating nubs, he's getting that stored sugar. People think its safe because there's hardly any grass out there, but actually, its sweeter than ever. Weeds are even higher in sugar. Then when it rains, the stored sugar goes up the blade again with the fury of springtime and now you have sweet blades as well.
Once the frost hits, I figure they're off the pasture for winter, unless you get a warm fall and dry enough ground for hooves not to wreck things and then a few chosen days or hours of being able to be out there. I don't push it though, time for the ground to rest anyway.

I hate having to hate the grass!

Hope this helps...

 

[Hen]

Very clear explanation missyclare, thank you. Is it safe to assume that once a morning frost has cleared, sugar levels in the blade lower to the same levels as if there had been no frost that day? I tend to switch to afternoon turnout only when it is frosty...

 

[goldypops]

But surely frost appears in the later part of the night/early morning? if the sugars go back down the base by 11pm at night that is before the frost arrives and hence it will be locked at the base of the plant not the top???

 

[Mongoose11]

My mare had a bout of frosty colic last year. I am going to muzzle her most of the Winter so I figure this will limit any problem that the grass/frost/sun/everything can cause

 

[Black_Horse_White]

When it's frosty mine has a net and is turned out late morning early afternoon. Although he's not had lami it's not worth the risk.

 

[winchester]

We went to a talk at the RVC about laminitis and raised the subject about frosty grass. We was told that when the SUn hits the frosty grass the sugars are very high and you should wait 2 hours after the grass has defrosted before turning a pony out to avoid high sugars!

Daylight during the Winter and waiting for 2 hours of sunlight after the grass has defrosted would mean the ponies never go out!

I have read up lots on it and alot of people are of the opinion to make sure your horses dont get turned out on an empty stomach and give them chaff/feed/small haynet before you turn them out on the grass so they dont stuff themselves silly!

I am always worried about it so make sure they are turned out with hay to keep them occupied for a few hours before they start on the grass! On really bad days they will stay in!

As with the ponies living out - i think it is a difficult call - as you dont want them to eat frosty grass - but if you stuff them full of hay is that really helping the fatties?

 

[Oberon]

http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/DiurnalFluctCHO.pdf

http://www.safergrass.org/articles.html

 

[ladyt25]

Hmm, well we have had our field with horses on it for over 20 years and have not experienced any issues with laminitis or any illnesses from frosty grass (probably kiss of death now aren't I!). 3 of ours are out 24/7 365 days a year, the other two come in at night in the winer months as generally they are clipped out. We have not started bringing them in as yet though so all 5 are still out.

We have not started them on hay either but generally they get hay in the field in the morning and again at night. I think having something already in their stomachs does help and maybe, as they essentially always have some hay about all day and night that maybe that keeps the problem at bay. Or, maybe as we have more of a rough pasture with different grass mixes it doesn't get affected as badly?

 

[MrsMozart]

Ours that are out 24/7 haven't had a problem.

Ours that are in at night are always given at least a small feed before they're turned out onto frosty ground. Note: they always have ad lib hay when stabled. Haven't had a problem, even the one that has twinges of spasmodic colic when first turned onto rich grazing.

 

[peanut]

But surely frost appears in the later part of the night/early morning? if the sugars go back down the base by 11pm at night that is before the frost arrives and hence it will be locked at the base of the plant not the top???

I always thought that frost causes sugar to flood the blades of grass to act as an anti-freeze. This is why your garden lawn, unlike other plants, always survives in very cold temperatures.

 

[Lotty]

My mare had laminitis 3 years ago in Spring. For the last few years my management has been to feed her & give her a 5lb haynet whilst I muck out. I usually ride in a morning too, so she goes out about 12.30 muzzled

 

[dominobrown]

Its amazing that any horses survive at all, they should be long extinct by now. Mine are all turned out after being fed at about 7/8am, with plenty of hay in the field, more if its frosty. Amazingly I have done this for 10 years or so and all my horses are alive. Whats even more amazing if the my neighbour keeps his youngstock out 24/7 in winter and they are all alive too!

 

[missyclare]

The 2nd link that Oberon posted is an excellent article. All the factors that affect the grass. Genetics, fertilizing the field, cloudy days, shade, but mostly sun and temperature have the most influence.

If you're American, that article has links to maps of the US that have the strongest sunlight at different times of the year. That doesn't help me much and I imagine, not anyone in Europe. Could such maps for your own area be found?

Mine are also out 24/7, and my pasture does have "punch". I can see it in their eyes. Every day that I go out, I look to the sky and feel the temperature on my skin and make a decision about how much time they are going to spend on that pasture that day. I always offer hay. Mine aren't IR, but I don't want to go there, so I treat them like they are IR. Many people who find out that their horse is laminitic, the horse has already foundered or has been compromised. If you know your horses's feets, you can catch the earliest sign and nip it.

Out of diet, trim and movement, to me, the movement is most important. I would rather see a horse out there with a muzzle on, if indicated, than standing depressed and not moving and gazing over the fence. Compromised horses are out there for the social life and movement, just that the muzzle is taped up solid with a hay dinner waiting at the barn. I do hate having to hate the grass, but I'm glad that I have the opportunity to manage it and keep it in our lives. Having an IR or Cushingoid horse can really make life complicated and the grass is only one of many worries and issues that are related. I don't want to go there, so I take care.

 

[Jools1234]

my post was in no-way suggesting horses should not live out or be turned out, in fact my horses have always lived out at night all yr round, i restrict their grazing when i feel it is needed, but i am with the above post movement/interaction are more important to me than anything else, so they are out togehter will grazing that is restricted when needed.
i do feel people should be aware of the risks so they can minimise them as far as possible

 

[cornbrodolly]

I get quite p**d off with this constant ' at risk from laminitis' scaremangering . Come on people, horse have lived out 24/7 for decades/centuries and do they all come down with laminitis? I think its been a great marketing tool for supplements - 'guard against laminits', got many more people stabling / ruggiing /feeding in winter - all because of hype about this. A very few PRONe to laminitis horses/ponies might subbumb , but to say ALL horses are at risk is just stupid.
If people actually got their horses fit and in medium work - ie hack more than 1 hr daily at all paces , there d be substantially less laminitis from grass/hard feed.
Do not be alarmed by feed companies wanting your cash - most of the articles I read about this subject are written by said feed companies! So forget the frost - turn out your hosses ![ unless a chronic laminitic of course]

 

[indie999]

If I knew the area was really well grazed I wouldnt worry to much but yes I did always treat frosty grass like it was spring grass...it holds the sugar as was explained earlier. Good luck. I would rather keep in a fenced off area and supplement with some ad lib hay.

 

[missyclare]

How do think horses get chronically laminitic in the first place?

Nothing breaks my heart more, than to see a pony turned out on the back forty and wondering which foot hurts the least so he can get across it.

People are becoming aware because their horses are already in trouble. They've had to do these things. From allergies, to ulcers, to founder, to the Pergolide Veil, the problem is immense! People are getting smarter, probably about what they eat as well and its a good thing. It never hurts to be more aware.

After a week of frosty nights and warmer sunny days, the sugar in grass is maxed out no matter what time of day or night it is....fully produced and frozen in place.

 

[MagicMelon]

my horses (cobs) both live out 24/7 rugless, no hay as of yet as still a fair bit of grass (there fat )

The fact that you have allowed your cobs to become "fat" means that they are going to be very prone to laminitis...

Yes frostry grass isn't great for lami, but I dont see why it would be much different with a horse out 24/7 and one stabled overnight. Most of mine stay out 24/7 and as of about 2 days ago, it'll now be frosty most mornings here.

 

[Achinghips]

The fact that you have allowed your cobs to become "fat" means that they are going to be very prone to laminitis...

I took OP's original comment to be "tongue in cheek" rather than a declaration of neglect.