Frustratingly neurotic animal

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Sprat

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So I've posted before about my geldings aversion to clipping, trimming, hogging etc.

I had decided to grow out his mane around 6 months ago, it is only just coming out of it's 'bog brush' stage.

I have an event in 2 weeks, so thought it would be a good idea to have a trial run plaiting him up. Cue melt down. Now, Jack is very headshy, and really does dislike any touching at the top of his neck / head / ears. So I have dutifully been plaiting and re plaiting every other day to desensitise him to this, and he stood good as gold last night, until it came to his forelock.

He just throws his (rather sizeable) head in the air and will not let me touch his forelock to plait it. I am going to carry on the desensitsing and hopefully I will get somewhere with this before D-Day!

Onto his legs - He is a Welsh X WB so he has a bit of extra feather on his legs which I cannot stand (plus it makes his boots difficult to fit) So I want to just trim the edges off with a pair of scissors. Tried this last night, again, cue melt down.

He jumps about all over the place and flicks his legs up and down and generally has a strop (he is happy to let me brush his legs, but will not abide scissors near them)

I have had him for coming up to 2 years, and he has always been the same.

So really I guess I am asking, does anyone have any experience / advice on how to tackle this issue?

Or should I just give in and twitch him everytime I need to do something like this? (FYI - He is far too clever for his own good, and knows when he is about to be twitched, and ends up on his back legs)

SIGH.

I really dislike having to twitch him as its such an unpleasant experience for the both of us.
 
Sounds a bit like my boy. Cross tied him... Stood like a lamb just with a very fed up expression. Worth a try!
 
Legs and heads are tricky to train because if you think about it, everytime he stamps or throws his head about, you reinforce the idea that that behaviour, stops you doing what he doesn't like.

It's very hard to stop yourself from withdrawing (or indeed dangerous if you don't).

What you need to do, is carry on with the disliked thing until he is still, then stop. Then you are teaching him that standing still makes you stop and throwing himself around makes you continue.

It depends how bad he is as to how you will do this.

With one of mine I was able to hold the switched on clipper on her leg but not try and clip anything, and I did the simple (ha ha) process of keeping it on her if she moved and stopping when she didn't.
 
Yes I suppose cross tying it is worth a try... though knowing how 'gymnastic' my boy can be when stressed it will probably end in tears. Or broken bones!

FW, you're absolutely right, it does then become a learned behaviour, but a difficult one to continue with when legs are flailing.

I did once last year manage to clip his legs with the technique you mentioned, but it took around 6 hours and a very patient friend to do it. I do have a nice quiet set of clippers, I suppose I should just crack on and keep trying.
 
Ah well my technique is about training for the future and I wasn't suggesting you would actually be clipping while you did it.

You train them to stand still and yes it might take hours (10 minutes of good training a day would be my preference) over all but once the training is done you can clip in minutes for the rest of the horses life.

If yours is totally mad then buying a cheap battery clipper and taping it onto a pole, might be a safer way to start.

And wear a hat...(stab vest/riot shield etc )
 
FfionWinnie said:
Ah well my technique is about training for the future and I wasn't suggesting you would actually be clipping while you did it.

You train them to stand still and yes it might take hours (10 minutes of good training a day would be my preference) over all but once the training is done you can clip in minutes for the rest of the horses life.

If yours is totally mad then buying a cheap battery clipper and taping it onto a pole, might be a safer way to start.

And wear a hat...(stab vest/riot shield etc )
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I think the riot shield would be a fabulous idea. Possibly one of those giant helmets that they wear as well?

So, you trained the horse to accept the clippers touching the leg while turned off? I think he would probably deal with that quite quickly, it's when he can hear the clippers and feel the vibration that blows his tiny mind.
 
Sprat said:
I think the riot shield would be a fabulous idea. Possibly one of those giant helmets that they wear as well?

So, you trained the horse to accept the clippers touching the leg while turned off? I think he would probably deal with that quite quickly, it's when he can hear the clippers and feel the vibration that blows his tiny mind.
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No they were off first (if necessary), then they were on but I wasn't trying to clip. It was enough just to concentrate on the above technique.

I inadvertently trained the horse to fidget by taking them off everytime she moved. It's a reflex action and you need to concentrate really hard to stop yourself doing it. The pole lets you follow the leg without your head being at mashing distance.

Your horse is obviously a trickier customer but the principle remains the same, it will just take you longer as he will need more repetition before you can start actually clipping him (and then you have to use the same technique but you've already done the dangerous work with the pole, so his movements won't be dangerous).

Hope that makes sense. Essentially the behaviour starts with them moving a mm realising it works and quickly degenerates into complete monster when the clippers come out. You need to reverse that.
 
Op, your comment of ' he is too clever for his own good' is the give away. I went through all the same issues and am still going through some of them with my super sensitive carthorse, who, until he went to a specialist breaker, had only two words in his dictionary - NO and Frightened, or so I believed.

I too did the de sensitising but he remained awful, I could not touch his ears, brush his mane any higher than the crest, I could not brush his legs below the knee/hock and introduce anything new, well stand back and hide. Putting any form of tack around his ears was a non starter, the headcollar had to go on his nose and then the head strap placed on the crest and gradually worked forward until it met the buckle.

The man that went on to break and make the horse arrived on my yard to assess the situation (I was thinking pts). He watched me handle the horse and true to form the horse did his mega nervous and anxious behaviour. The words of the breaker remain with me today - "That horse has you where he wants you and he knows exactly how to work you"

I am not a novice owner and I was mortified but so relieved in equal measures. I had spent 3 years thinking the horse was a nervous and thick twit, he was actually a very intelligent horse using his tendency to be nervous to his advantage and I was rewarding him by pussy footing around him which was fuelling his nervous nature. The first big decision you need to make OP, is to decide is your horse nervous or nasty because both states produce similar behaviour, nervous will run away first, but nervous and nasty will kick or flatten you then run.

Obviously handling this type of horse is a real skill, his breaker was quiet around the horse but purposeful and pressure was kept on until the horse accepted it, the reward was the release from pressure, be it scissors, tack etc. The change in attitude was huge, it did not happen over night of course and it is hard work which is on going.

As Michen says the cross tie is useful, but keep yourself safe. I think you need to reassess the horse and hard as it is, could he be fooling you and do you need to get tough, in a fair way, with him.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Legs and heads are tricky to train because if you think about it, everytime he stamps or throws his head about, you reinforce the idea that that behaviour, stops you doing what he doesn't like.

It's very hard to stop yourself from withdrawing (or indeed dangerous if you don't).

What you need to do, is carry on with the disliked thing until he is still, then stop. Then you are teaching him that standing still makes you stop and throwing himself around makes you continue.

It depends how bad he is as to how you will do this.

With one of mine I was able to hold the switched on clipper on her leg but not try and clip anything, and I did the simple (ha ha) process of keeping it on her if she moved and stopping when she didn't.
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This is exactly what I was trying to detail ! and what the carthorse's breaker does. It is a massive skill and timing is key.
 
Maybe try sedating him a few times? I had some issues with mine chucking himself on the floor while travelling (after an accident, to be fair, I think he was genuinely terrified) but after a few trips with a bit of sedalin he came to realise that travelling isn't that scary.
 
AdorableAlice said:
This is exactly what I was trying to detail ! and what the carthorse's breaker does. It is a massive skill and timing is key.
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The problem is it is against every instinct the human possesses. It's so easy to train a horse, anyone can do it, the problem is whether you are training it for the outcome you want, or it wants ;)
 
Sounds like my horse. He has a meltdown even when I try to brush his legs, let alone clip. He was also very headshy when I got him and still hates me brushing his mane or forelock. I can't get near him with a twitch - he appears to know what one is and throws himself around.

All I can suggest is little and often and persist, without putting yourself in danger. Three years down the line, we have made progress. I managed a half-decent clip this year and even managed to clip his back legs, although the fronts were a step too far. I have discovered I can more or less brush his front legs if I hold them up to do it - although he does try to sit down when I do the nearside one. His mane is trimmed with scissors and he will tolerate a rake for a little while so I can keep him looking just about presentable. I tend not to spend too long doing stuff I know he doesn't like and, if he's stood well, he gets plenty of praise.

My annual clipping regime is to leave the clippers running near him, progress to putting them on him but not clipping, and then eventually clipping for short periods - probably takes me a total of ten days to achieve a neck and belly clip. However, he really is improving every time and patient persistence has been absolutely key. He frets about everything and it has been difficult not to get impatient with him but I have found the only way to achieve anything he doesn't like is to count to ten and continue, even if that means taking a step back. For example, he is happy with my hands on his legs, but not a brush, so I dump the brush and use my hands up and down his legs.

On a different note, he was very difficult to mount from a block when he arrived and would never stand still. We have cracked this to the extent that he now stands like a rock unless something upsets him and that has been achieved by persistence. I think our record for re-presenting at the mounting block was 28 times but it was generally about six or seven. More than once is now unheard of.

It is hard to know whether some horses are born neurotic or have been made that way - I suspect it is the latter with mine and many of his issues are remembered stress/pain so I think it is important to ensure that there is no stress or pain when you are doing whatever it is you need to achieve.
 
As someone with a very head shy horse, who is also funny about his legs (the former due to being ear twitched as a foal and the latter due to having had Leukocytoclastic Vasculitis in the past), I would personally not plait his forelock or clip his legs if it meant having to force him. From the sounds of it (the boot comment) you are not doing a competition where you have to plait and trim to take part.

I would keep gently working on touching/plaiting the forelock and getting him used to the scissors near his legs over time as with my horse, forcing him would put us back weeks of training. Turnout for this specific competition isn't worth ruining the long term aim (having the horse completely relaxed about having his forelock plaited and heels trimmed in this case) IMO.
 
An excellent post from FfW as usual! Timing is everything.

I'd also try a diversion. It is very difficult to think of two things at the same time (for me, anyway!). We have been working on one here and as he's a Highland, he is food orientated. We start to approach/do-what-he-hates as mildly as possible until he starts to react, then pop a piece of carrot in his mouth. The idea is to get him anticipating the reward but to keep him slightly on edge about the thing he hates as it becomes more threatening. Be careful not to go over the line from apprehension to terror! It is a balancing act and there are dangers that if you don't get the timing right, you end up rewarding bad behaviour! Sadly, whatever you do is going to take time to achieve success but I always remember the advice from an old lady I knew, "Nothing can be frightened forever". Personally, I'd avoid any situations that might cause unnecessary stress until the problem is resolved.

Continuously playing a recording of clippers, etc. in his stable is an excellent idea. We use Radio 1 and if they will tolerate that, they'll tolerate most things!:)
 
FfionWinnie said:
Legs and heads are tricky to train because if you think about it, everytime he stamps or throws his head about, you reinforce the idea that that behaviour, stops you doing what he doesn't like.

It's very hard to stop yourself from withdrawing (or indeed dangerous if you don't).

What you need to do, is carry on with the disliked thing until he is still, then stop. Then you are teaching him that standing still makes you stop and throwing himself around makes you continue.

It depends how bad he is as to how you will do this.

With one of mine I was able to hold the switched on clipper on her leg but not try and clip anything, and I did the simple (ha ha) process of keeping it on her if she moved and stopping when she didn't.
Click to expand...

Just what I was about to say - if you can understand the basic principles of training, you can train anything.
 
Agree with all the previous posts just to add, try desensitising with plastic kids safety scissors, they still make the noise but you can keep them on without worrying about hurting him if he faffs about.
 
Oh I've got one of these! Mane pulling is delightful he will stand stiffly and let you pull the lower part but there is categorically no way you are getting near the top bit yet I'll try and scissor it and that's even more terrifying so I end up with a nice neat lower half then a kind of moth eaten top half where I've sneaked up on him.

I tried to plait his mane last summer and thought we were going to go into actual melt down at the noise of the bands being added I gave up in the end for the sake of my sanity

Leg trimming is either him just standing there normally or the most traumatic experience even. Sometimes I wish I could just tell him the more he just stands quietly the easier it will be for all involved! God forbid he catch sight of the trimmed off hair on the floor because it is the scariest monster in the world and it is actually going to eat him. The leg flicking you mentioned is so familiar I swear it scares him more when he does that he then ends up standing on himself!

Clipping needs multiple sedation shots last year he was actually leaning against the wall and snoring before I could get near him

Beard and moustache trimming I don't even attempt or he is going through the roof!

He's Welsh D.
 
Crazy_cat_lady said:
Beard and moustache trimming I don't even attempt or he is going through the roof!

He's Welsh D.
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Ha, why am I not surprised your nightmare is a Welsh as well :lol:

Have you tried the equi-shave for face / beard?

I tried the equishave for legs but unfortunately it is just too small to attack the leg hair :(
 
Sprat said:
I think he would probably deal with that quite quickly, it's when he can hear the clippers and feel the vibration that blows his tiny mind.
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I'm just working on my daughters pony on clipping (he is much easier as his "terror" instinct is generally to freeze, but if I keep going when he's like that then I can't catch him for a few days afterwards). He is perfectly happy with the clippers off but doesn't like the noise and vibration so I'm currently working with a toy hair dryer borrowed from my daughter. I have used an old electric toothbrush in the past.
 
Sprat said:
Ha, why am I not surprised your nightmare is a Welsh as well :lol:

Have you tried the equi-shave for face / beard?

I tried the equishave for legs but unfortunately it is just too small to attack the leg hair :(
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Yep unfortunately got a similar reaction to the shaver as well he's obviously one of these men who is proud of his facial hair and there is no way some woman is getting rid of it! He had the Welsh D dished face as well and would look so much smarter without a beard!
 
Hog him :D

Seriously, sometimes it's better to find a way round something rather than try to dealing with it.

My horse is a git. He's not frightened in anyway but just doesn't like being fiddled with. He starts off bolshy and then gets cross about it if you don't take the hint. He's a darling in any other way, but just does not want to be clean and tidy : rolleyes:

I tackled the legs in the way FW suggests and he will tolerate this now, just. I knock him out to clip him and on 2 other occasions during the year to clean his sheath (he has melanomas so it has to be done)

Despite 11 years of trying, desensitising, the softly softly approach, the no nonsense approach, 6 helpers and many other things, he WILL NOT allow me to cut a bridle path, not even with scissors. With clippers, I can lay them, running, on his poll with no problems. I can hold them in all directions vibrating on his head and he's fine, but the second the blade hits his hair, he throws his head up so violently that he's broken the clippers twice, sent me flying across the yard, given me a black eye and broken two leadropes (he was cross tied). I just don't bother any more. I used to do it when I knocked him out, but it grows back so quickly that after a couple of weeks it looks a mess so I just leave it long now and arrange his mane around it every time I tack him up. Weirdly I can pull his mane and he goes to sleep, but I can't go very short as he won't allow me to go too close to his poll. Strange horse.
 
annagain said:
Hog him :D

Seriously, sometimes it's better to find a way round something rather than try to dealing with it.

My horse is a git. He's not frightened in anyway but just doesn't like being fiddled with. He starts off bolshy and then gets cross about it if you don't take the hint. He's a darling in any other way, but just does not want to be clean and tidy : rolleyes:

I tackled the legs in the way FW suggests and he will tolerate this now, just. I knock him out to clip him and on 2 other occasions during the year to clean his sheath (he has melanomas so it has to be done)

Despite 11 years of trying, desensitising, the softly softly approach, the no nonsense approach, 6 helpers and many other things, he WILL NOT allow me to cut a bridle path, not even with scissors. With clippers, I can lay them, running, on his poll with no problems. I can hold them in all directions vibrating on his head and he's fine, but the second the blade hits his hair, he throws his head up so violently that he's broken the clippers twice, sent me flying across the yard, given me a black eye and broken two leadropes (he was cross tied). I just don't bother any more. I used to do it when I knocked him out, but it grows back so quickly that after a couple of weeks it looks a mess so I just leave it long now and arrange his mane around it every time I tack him up. Weirdly I can pull his mane and he goes to sleep, but I can't go very short as he won't allow me to go too close to his poll. Strange horse.
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He used to be hogged :lol: exactly the same situation, I would have to sedate him everytime he needed re hogging and it just costs so much money I am now growing it out!
 
You can add positive reinforcement into the mix too. Doing things like keeping (safe, plastic) scissors touching the horse until it stops being daft and removing them when it does stop is a form of negative reinforcement - ending something that the horse finds unpleasant. You can add a reward in too, for instance a treat when the behaviour stops, which can speed up the training and eventually, if you are lucky, turn it into a nice game rather than a horrible struggle. In this scenario, the treat could be given while keeping the scissors in place which would help you to train the horse to be still with them around. Clicker training is a way of 'formalising' this sort of approach.
 
desensititse- so brush his legs, then do two brush strokes and a scissors clip, then two brush strokes and a scissors clip, all in the same rhythm so he doesn't notice the difference.
 
Agreed with everyone else, its about timing.

Although for my horse as well, when he didnt like getting his legs washed, he would dance around and act silly, so I ended up just grabbing the leg I wanted to wash and held it up to clean it. He couldnt dance around on 3 legs, so he stood still (albeit he was sulking majorly). After doing that a lot of times to wash them, he is pretty fine now (although he prefers warm water to cold, mr fancy pants).

My YO managed to pull his mane too! It was just a case of the young lad attempted to hold onto him while the YO pulled his mane. They went round and round in his stable a lot, but the idiot eventually got the hint that they werent going to give in and just stood there, sulking again. His problem isnt fear though like yours, he just wants to control the situation and be the boss. He is slowly learning that wont happen, but he does sulk about it and glares at me a lot when he doesnt get his own way.
 
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