FUMING- dont mind never trust a loaner...never trust a bl**dy owner!!!!

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Samantha008

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So so angry i could actually SCREAM!!

About a year ago, i loaned a horse that arrived lame. I noticed immediatley. Gave him a weeks rest wondering if it was the travel/stress of new home etc. No improvement so told owner and called vet. My vet came out, told me that this horse had arthritis, some sort of neck problem, a stifle injury etc etc. He MUST have been buted or something simialr when i went to try him. I told the owner that she should have him back as this wasnt fair, she told me i had to give a months notice.

I gave a months notice, and in that time asked my vet what to do. He suggested field rest for the month as the horse wasnt so uncomfortable that he needed box rest, but even my VET said that this wasnt fair for me to sort out. Having had the horse a week....

His owner wasnt happy with my vets recommendation and told me she wanted it investigating, so i started the ball rolling with the insurance, and she had x rays/ ultrasouns etc etc. I told her straight that i wasnt going to pay the excess for the insurance, as id paid for the initial call out and had had my vets advice and was sticking to it, so i was in line with our sontract. She said thats fine, shell pay. She just wants to know whats wrong. Roll on this morning, me getting a letter in the post from the vet saying i owe them the excess for the insurance (£500). Turns out his owner had said upon ringing that the call out was for me, not her. So its on my account, not hers. I didnt know this. I knew my name had to be somewhere for insurance purposes, and we couldnt transfer he insuranc at the time, as he wouldnt have been able to be treated at all as it would have started as a new poicy. I called her today to be reasonable and ask her to pay or at least compromise, to which she replied that i ruined her horse and now im paying the consequences. I never even got to ride this horse as he arrived bloody lame!!I wasnt even there when the vet came.

So now im left with a huge bill, in my name. I dont even have a leg to stand on. Only thing i can do is learn my lesson that EVERYTHING needs to be in writing and hope that his owner rots in hell!! At least shes retired the poor thing now, i dont know how she can sleep at night :(

I can understand from her point of view, (if she GENUINELY didnt think there was a problem) that her horse returned from loan lame. But there is no way that a horse has these types of injuries in one week, from an individual paddock turnout by himself....and there is no way i would have thought that this horse was sound upon going to view him....and at the very least should she not have had the decency, even if by some miracle she had been genunie and it did all happen in a week, to tell me she had no intention what so ever in paying for any of the fees she was arranging?!?!?!

Never ever ever ever ever loaning again :(
 
I think you do have a leg to stand on actually. Have you spoken to Citizen's Advice?
What a shame you were so nice, a lot of people would have told her to poke her notice and be ready to recieve the delivery of her horse immediately.
 
Gutted for you. Worth a call to CAB on the offchance you can get her to pay? Its got to be worth a fight, even if it is just to make her uncomfortable over it.
 
Anything in writing?

Ultimately, you are in the right and the horse should've gone back immediately. The owner was wrong to say a month's notice. The horse was not suitable for e purpose described, therefore you were within your rights to return it.

Phone the vet, tell them the insurance is with the owner and don't pay!
 
Are you saying she phoned your vets? or did she phone her vets & pretend to be you? or phone her vets & tell them that it was for you to pay?
In any of these cases I think you will find that the vets have acted inappropriately. They cannot expect you to pay without confirming with you first. I dont think anyone can just phone the vets & say... im calling to request tests/callout etc but the bill will go to......
The vets cannot bill you without having your express permission/consent for tests to be carried out.. im sure the data protection act or something like that must protect you from having stuff done in your name without confirming with you first?
 
I'm sure we've had a similar situation on here before and the contact was between the vet and the person who called them, so nothing to do with you at all. Certainly worth looking into I think.
I'd be inclined to risk losing a vet on this one because they know they can't take a call from one person and take their word that it is someone else's responsibility to pay.
 
If it was your vets that initially started the ball rolling & have then carried out further investigation after she phoned them to request it but has said you are paying... I would make the vets very aware that you had no idea of this & as they did not confirm with you as the account holder the bill is not your responsibility. Tell them its a matter between them & her and nothing to do with you.
 
Re loan agreement her word against yours...so cant see how you can take total blame here for not having a loan

Is it your insurance policy so how can someone give a vet instructions when its not their policy???Tell them you settled the original call out bill and not any further treatments if you didnt agree to them and were unaware?? Sounds like Fraud...ie using your policy to pay for her horses treatment???

When i had a car accident the insurance company every time I phoned asked private data ie date of birth etc so perhaps the horse ones need to do the same etc
 
If she instructed the vets to do work and put it on your account without your permission surely this is fraud? I'd be seeking legal advice sharpish.

Was it your insurance or hers? Didn't quite understand that or did you take over her policy? Mine only covers injury for the first 14 days and a horse that arrived lame wouldn't be covered.
 
No helpful advice sorry but just to say to all these posts I have had vets out for multiple horses whilst in my care as a freelance groom, I'm registered with most of the local practices but I still just tell the vet who to put the bill to. If you had the vet out for the horse originally in your name the horses name will then be under yours in the database so the vet would have no issues in charging the bill to you and so are just the messenger (you know the saying). They will just assume the horse is yours/in your care and so your responibility due to you originally calling out in your name! However I dont think it is right you paying and would argue the case that its not - explain the horse is registered under both your names and you only had it on loan for a week and were lied to about soundness etc. :)
 
I don't think that's right Snowysadude. In your situation you have a contract with the owners to care for their horses, so the situation is different. Also, the owners aren't querying the bill and saying that they didn't authorise it. (I assume you have something in writing authorising you to take necessary steps re vet treatment, if not, you need it).
In this case the owner of the horse rang the vet requesting treatment. She did that with intention to fraud. I am 90% sure we've had similar on here before and the person who didn't make the call was able to refuse to pay and direct the vet back to the person who called them out. Similarly, we've had disputes over livery bills, and the contract ended up being between the YO and the person who agreed it in the first place.
So Op, please get some advice and let us know how you get on. You may find that you can even get legal advice through your household insurance, or if you have BHS Gold membership that would be useful too.
 
liveryblues said:
Are you saying she phoned your vets? or did she phone her vets & pretend to be you? or phone her vets & tell them that it was for you to pay?
In any of these cases I think you will find that the vets have acted inappropriately. They cannot expect you to pay without confirming with you first. I dont think anyone can just phone the vets & say... im calling to request tests/callout etc but the bill will go to......
The vets cannot bill you without having your express permission/consent for tests to be carried out.. im sure the data protection act or something like that must protect you from having stuff done in your name without confirming with you first?
Click to expand...

We recently had a situation where a pony at the yard had bloods taken and upon receiving the bill the owner duly rang the vets and asked them to split the cost of the bloods between the 9 horses that had the vet out that day! They claimed to have had permission from the owners (in reality they'd mentioned it to one who'd disagreed) and bam suddenly we had a bill for bloods we didn't have taken! Mother dearest was less than impressed so rang vets who told her she had no legal obligation to pay!
Why can't vets just leave the bills at the legal obligation and ask the owners to settle 'moral' obligations themselves unless something is agreed upon with the vet present or they seek permission first!

May not apply to this situation though, insurance and stuff confuzzles me:o
 
Tinypony said:
the contact was between the vet and the person who called them, so nothing to do with you at all. Certainly worth looking into I think.
I'd be inclined to risk losing a vet on this one because they know they can't take a call from one person and take their word that it is someone else's responsibility to pay.
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Indeed!

I need to get the vet out to my horse so can I have your details so you can pay my bill too!

They're having a giraffe...

ETA You didn't order the vet and it's not even your horse. Tell them that
 
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First off let me say I don't think the OP should pay at all as she did not order the tests. Just tell the accounts that this is not your bill at all but the owners and give them the owners name and address where to forward it too.

Snowysadude said:
No helpful advice sorry but just to say to all these posts I have had vets out for multiple horses whilst in my care as a freelance groom, I'm registered with most of the local practices but I still just tell the vet who to put the bill to. If you had the vet out for the horse originally in your name the horses name will then be under yours in the database so the vet would have no issues in charging the bill to you and so are just the messenger (you know the saying). They will just assume the horse is yours/in your care and so your responibility due to you originally calling out in your name! However I dont think it is right you paying and would argue the case that its not -
Click to expand...

Agree with this, when I had liveries I would always make sure the vets had the right person to send the bill to. In some cases like normal jabs when we shared visit costs, the whole bill would come to me and I would add their share to their livery bill for them; never had a problem at all.

Tinypony said:
In this case the owner of the horse rang the vet requesting treatment. She did that with intention to fraud. I am 90% sure we've had similar on here before and the person who didn't make the call was able to refuse to pay and direct the vet back to the person who called them out.
So Op, please get some advice and let us know how you get on. You may find that you can even get legal advice through your household insurance, or if you have BHS Gold membership that would be useful too.
Click to expand...

Agree with this too.
 
As I read this (could be wrong) OP dealt with vet as horse was in her care at the time, although owner asked for the tests to be arranged. Insurance was in OP's name.
Unfortunately, I think OP will have to pay the vet as the vet's contract was with her.
Then I would explore the likelihood of getting the £500 back through small claims court.
For future reference, this horse should have been returned immediately, or failing that owner's instructions re-vet, should have been obtained in writing prior to any request for further tests, after the initial visit had established that there was no emergency situation.
 
I am afraid I agree with the above post. Because you started the claim with your insurance and therefore assume the claim form was filled in using your name and policy then the excess is down to you as far as the vets are concerned due to the horse apparently being in your ownership at the time of investigation. In hindsight, a wonderful thing, you should have asked her to restart investigations under her name and address.
 
In my neck of the woods the vets would normally require verification from the owner of the horse/account that they are happy to be responsible for the bill.

In order words, if the owner of the horse told the vets that the bill was to be put onto your account, then the vets should have verified this with you first.

I think if you take this up with the vets you may be pleasantly surprised.
 
I'd be returning the horse today and speaking to my solicitor about claiming costs and compo.

Do you think she was devious enough to loan the horse knowing it had issues in the hope someone else would pay? I hope to think there aren't horse owners out there who would do this...

Get vet to confirm dates of visits and calls if possible and get your solicitor to write her a letter- solicitors letters are scary and will hopefully change her mind into paying for HER horse!
 
Can't give any advice, but I really feel for you! I've just come out of a messy situation and the last few days have been very stressful. I'm going to start a thread on it when everything's settled down
 
charlie76 said:
In hindsight, a wonderful thing, you should have asked her to restart investigations under her name and address.
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I did. I tried. but the insurance wouldnt cover her, as would have had to have started a new policy and then the leg would have been written off as it would be classed as a previous injury. So she asked me to keep it in my name so we oculd use the insurance. In hindsight, i should have got her to sign to pay the excess.

Currently looking in to the law to see if theres anythign i can do. Its not a huge sum of money, just want to annoy this owner now as how dare she think ill happily pay for her horses problems that she was just to dum to notice?!?!?!

Grrr.
 
Do I understand your post correctly:

1) You took the horse over a year ago
2) Only recently have had the bill - so a year later from lame horse arriving?
3) The insurance for this horse was in your name, you started a claim - after a discussion with the owner on your insurance, so that there could be a claim because if she started insurance again she would not have been able to make a claim as the horse was already lame?
4) Insurance generally has a 14day period that no such claim could be made - if you say arrived lame - are you even sure your insurance is going to pay the balance?

This is not going to have a very good outcome and I suggest you have a chat with a Solicitor sharpish, get an Equine Specialist rather than some back street family one.

Firstly, you should have sent the horse back as everyone says, not hung on.
I would have checked my contract, the horse should have been fit for a purpose, he wasn't, end of agreement.

A month notice would be should you wish to terminate the contract on other grounds, not on the fact he arrived lame.

Vets - tricky this one to be honest. Call them and talk to them.
They too often end up the victims of peoples scams, and struggle to recover monies themselves. But they are not ogres and I suggest you open dialogue with them.

My concern for you is that after this contract of loan - I don't think you have anything in writing. Also, that you started a claim on your own insurance - so as you were paying the premium you are responsible for this cost and in terms of the legalities - the excess, it is your policy.
However perhaps an option is to pursue the owner aside for the excess, but it is word against word.

How long after he arrived did he go back to his owner? (It seems we are a year later).

Who has paid all his costs in this interim period?

Please seek some legal help, prior to talking to the vets if you can. Some Solicitors will give you an hour free, and you can decide how to take it from there.

I hope this gets sorted for you, but the take positive from it whatever the outcome. Good luck.
 
CHH said:
Do I understand your post correctly:

1) You took the horse over a year ago
2) Only recently have had the bill - so a year later from lame horse arriving?
3) The insurance for this horse was in your name, you started a claim - after a discussion with the owner on your insurance, so that there could be a claim because if she started insurance again she would not have been able to make a claim as the horse was already lame?
4) Insurance generally has a 14day period that no such claim could be made - if you say arrived lame - are you even sure your insurance is going to pay the balance?

This is not going to have a very good outcome and I suggest you have a chat with a Solicitor sharpish, get an Equine Specialist rather than some back street family one.

Firstly, you should have sent the horse back as everyone says, not hung on.
I would have checked my contract, the horse should have been fit for a purpose, he wasn't, end of agreement.

A month notice would be should you wish to terminate the contract on other grounds, not on the fact he arrived lame.

Vets - tricky this one to be honest. Call them and talk to them.
They too often end up the victims of peoples scams, and struggle to recover monies themselves. But they are not ogres and I suggest you open dialogue with them.

My concern for you is that after this contract of loan - I don't think you have anything in writing. Also, that you started a claim on your own insurance - so as you were paying the premium you are responsible for this cost and in terms of the legalities - the excess, it is your policy.
However perhaps an option is to pursue the owner aside for the excess, but it is word against word.

How long after he arrived did he go back to his owner? (It seems we are a year later).

Who has paid all his costs in this interim period?

Please seek some legal help, prior to talking to the vets if you can. Some Solicitors will give you an hour free, and you can decide how to take it from there.

I hope this gets sorted for you, but the take positive from it whatever the outcome. Good luck.
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My thoughts exactly. I don't understand how the insurance agreed to pay if he arrived lame. Even if it had been out of the 14 day inception period, if it was due to arthritis then they would have demanded full vet history to ensure that it was not a pre-existing condition that the owner knew about. So I don't understand why they paid.

Is this the same horse that you thought may have kissing spine? Is he the one in your sig?

What a terrible owner to land you with the bills for a horse that you have not even ridden. I would tell the vets that she defrauded them putting the bill in your name and that they should chase her for payment. I hope this has a good outcome for you.
 
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