Fussy mouth or fussy rider?

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niko

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Apologies if this is long, but it may help you over to sleep….

I got a mare at the start of January I helped break so knew her from the start. When she was being broke she hated the breaking bit and would put her tongue over the bit so they put a spoon bit in (don’t get me started!!).

Anyhow I was introduced and started bringing her on and brought some bits as knew she was terribly unhappy in her mouth. I tried her in the neue schule universal on the snaffle ring, as my thoughts were that it was a mild mouthpiece, but had the extra stability that she may be seeking. She mouthed better in this and was slightly quieter in the mouth and relaxed through the jaw. I then brought her home and sold that bit with my old mare as when I got her she was fussy and she went like a dream in that. I got my EDT to check her and gave her the all clear, nothing unusual in a typical baby tb’s mouth. So after discussions I ordered a bomber, happy tongue, loose ring eggbutt.

This done its job in letting her trust the mouthpiece as was still and nice to mouth and had the bit of ‘play’ with the loose ring but the benefit of an eggbutt as did not pinch and would ‘push’ the side of her face to teach her direction. I also put a loose flash on to teach her she did not have to open her mouth (when she was happy with the mouthpiece). She hated the flash and would swing you every shape doing it up or taking it off, no matter how loose it was. Not worth the fight, so removed and obviously her way of telling me what she wanted (quite good at that!!).

In the time I have had her she has never put the tongue over the bit, but I have also used a mouthpiece with a slight port to remove tongue pressure as this is what she seems to evade. I tried her in a sprenger (the one with the roller in the lozenge) that I found in my heap of bits. I have never felt a horse throw itself onto the forehand and push its tongue against a bit like it when asking for a transition etc. So tried the NS team up which is similar, but with the lozenge at a different angle….same thing.

At this point she was also getting strong and heavy on the hand and would just push against the contact. I thought I would put my myler Pelham in as I intended to do workers with her and needed her mannerly and pleasant, and not just to look at when being ridden.
Well…..she just took to it, opens her mouth for it and rides in it without opening her mouth to evade contact. She is confident, yet respectful but still at times I feel she is running through the bridle and just not completely accepting in my view.
I tried her in a myler hanging cheek as seems she likes this as the same as the Pelham mouthpiece, but not strong enough when she gets ‘keen’. I don’t want to be hauling (not quite but you know how it feels) when I could ride in something stronger and be on a fingertip touch.

I know she is not a strong horse as today I tried again in the bomber happy tongue for a hack and on transitions or taking up a contact she was the same as she was in the sprenger. Farmer had told me I could ride in the field as he has burnt it off to plough. So off we went at merry speed (ya can tell shes out of a champion p2p’er!!!) and pulled up as pleasant as can be when I brought my body up and said whoa….in a snaffle, and first time galloping in months!!

So if you made it this far I would appreciate opinions.
I am thinking of a Dr Cook bridle at this point. She is a responsive mare but just doesn’t seem to like anything but the Pelham……but I can’t dressage in that to event?
 
I'm no expert but that is a lot of bits. Maybe you need to persevere schooling in one she seems comfortable in rather than swapping for a quick fix.
 
I don't think you can dressage in a bit less bridle for eventing either, so that doesn't solve your problem and isn't what I'd be trying next.

I'd go back to the myler snaffle - you don't need to use it for everything, just flatwork. My horse schools in a snaffle but does everything else (jumping/hacking/fast work) in a Pelham.

You perhaps need to think about your schooling - when she gets keen, halt her, pat her when she relaxes and move off again. But don't stress about trying to do everything in a snaffle - its a HHO myth that with enough correct schooling every horse can do everything in a snaffle ;)
 
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I would not state that i am looking for a 'quick fix', merely trying to source something that she is most comfortable and responsive in. Being able to try different bits has allowed me to find what parts of the mouth she reacts to hence the reason i know she does not like jointed bits and stick to the mylers.
Most of my schooling is done on the roads and surrounding fields, so it can be difficult to ride in anything but the pelham unfortunately. Nearly between a rock and a hard place!!
 
I would use a plain myler snaffle and try a micklem bridle to see if that helps.
But as the horses training progresses and the reactions to half halts improves and the balance develops these issues should become less pressing.
I try very hard with horses with difficult mouths to ignore the issue and ride the rest of the horse.
I have had several horses now who are much happier in the micklem bridle so that definatly worth trying, I think you can hire them with a view to buy there was a thread on here about them and I am sure someone was hiring with a view to buy.
 
I am having a similar problem with my TB mare, but I have only kept her in 2 bits, both Neue Schule, the verbindend and the tranz angled lozenge, just snaffle, she will work happily in both bits in a contact, but the transitions are vile even a walk to halt involves a hard pull and stufing her head up, not from me the pulling just her, I have found that i I use use the whoa that I say for lunging that she has better downward transitions, and I don't want to start hauling on her mouth I am sticking to my usual, quiet still hands, still seat, leg on aids for halt with the whoa that although its not as instant she is better about the listening to me, but she also seems to have good and bad mouth days and sometimes just keeps grabbing the contact and throwing her head about, all I can do then is keep riding my circles and loops, leg yielding and pushing her forward until she forgets what she was fussing about!
 
Have you had more than one dentist look at him? Might be worth getting a second dentist out for a look... Or getting thermal imaging done of her mouth.
 
Goldenstar - I had looked at the micklem, but had not give it a further thought so thankyou. Being from ireland with the makers close by im sure i could find a way of borrowing one to find out!
Regarding halting etc & leg yields she is a pleasent ride. When she doesnt like the mouthpiece, cheekpiece etc she will let you know. This conists of head flailing, pushing against contact etc, anything that feels horrendous in the hand. If you get the bitting right she is lovely and light & HAPPY.
Had her out tonight and think i may have cracked it with a simple addition i cant believe i had not thought of it sooner. As she loves the myler hanging cheek i attached the leather NS curb strap for a wee bit extra and what i lovely horse i had.
She came back to me politely, no opening of the mouth and soft in the contact and you could easily ask for leg yield, neck bend, halt etc. This was well tested tonight when the tractors were out in force and had to ask her to do things without an argument or her giving the tractor driver a horrible 'gurn' face as she does!!
Super pleased and i intend to lessen the tightness of the leather curb until we just have a snaffle.....well for hacking anyway!
Sometimes 'putting up' or 'riding through' the behaviour cannot be done, not if you know the horse to know that it isn't just being 'awkward'.
Happy horse = happy + poor owner!!
Thank you all for posting and i will get a pic of her competing this weekend i hope!
 
Are you using it as a curb, as in through the hooks, or as a chin strap through the bit rings? (western snaffles often have back straps and I use them often on young horses) And what mouthpiece? The almost mullen mouth or a jointed one? The reason I ask - other than just out of interest - is because if it's a chin strap configuration what you're doing between the cheek and the strap is holding the bit VERY still. With the right configuration you should be able to reproduce this in a dressage legal form.
 
Tarrsteps thank you for posting that is rather interesting.
Yes as a curb though the top hooks that link also attach to the bridle. I though this held it even stiller and also acted as a curb.
The mouth piece is the mb04 - low port comfort snaffle in a 4.5" (she also has a small mouth) like this - http://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/product.php?xProd=120
Is this dressage legal do you know? I am schooling today again in it and she is rather pleasant
 
niko said:
Tarrsteps thank you for posting that is rather interesting.
Yes as a curb though the top hooks that link also attach to the bridle. I though this held it even stiller and also acted as a curb.
The mouth piece is the mb04 - low port comfort snaffle in a 4.5" (she also has a small mouth) like this - http://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/product.php?xProd=120
Is this dressage legal do you know? I am schooling today again in it and she is rather pleasant
Click to expand...

It isn't dressage legal. I tried mine with the Myler MB04 without using the hooks or a curb, then moved onto the MB02 but with a sweet iron mouthpiece. Fussy horse much happier in this mouthpiece, seems that your horse also likes this mouthpiece so try the comfort snaffle MB02.
 
Ah, by "hooks" i meant the hooks on the Myler rings (NS uninversals etc are similar in design) to hold the rein down below the level of the mouthpiece and provide a fulcrum and therefore poll pressure. Putting a strap through the cheekpiece of a hanging doesn't create a fulcrum as the pull does not come below the mouthpiece.

Anyhow, neither here nor there as, as said, unfortunately the mouthpiece is not legal. You can join the chorus of people wondering why a port isn't legal but you'd be wasting your breath, too. ;)

Yes, try the MB02, another option might be the Informed Bits, which are mullen mouthed but with a substantial forward curve.
 
Tarrsteps would you mind elaborating on the dressage legal configuration with a back strap? Mine loves his mullen mouth pellham and goes really nicely even with out me touching the curb rein but hates the hanging cheek version of it.

OP have you seen the CS happy tongue? Its dressage legal.
 
It's moot for the bit the OP is using - as 9tails says the mouthpiece itself is not legal because of the port.

Is the CS bit not jointed?

Re your pelham, what if you take the curb strap completely off? That would be a more accurate test. Just the weight of the rein will provide some leverage and engage the curb, even if you just have it knotted on the neck, let alone if you're holding it with the snaffle at all - it is almost impossible to not use the curb at all. In addition, pelhams are always a bit "muddy" in their action, which is why dressage double bridles are separate bits.

When you say "hates" what do you mean?

One of the recognised problems with mullen mouths is that they can make a horse very "fixed" and leaning. This can be a great short term fix for a horse that's really not taking the bit but they are often most useful as short term measures. Not to say that some horses don't always go well in them - a mullen mouth and drop can be a great combo - but it's quite common for horses to get a bit rude in them. Rubber mouthpieces (vs vulcanite, nathe, plastic, and metal) are also too thick for almost any horse to wear comfortably. I suspect this can be less apparent in the pelham version (although what many people call rubber pelhams are actually vulcanite) because they tend not to be used with a flash/drop so the mouth does open a little, and because the more severe action means the horse doesn't "yaw" at the bit and run through it. Also, pelhams leave a bit to be desired for lateral suppleness, which is also a problem for some horses in a mullen mouth, so perhaps it's harder for the rider to pick out which part of the bit is having which effect.
 
TarrSteps said:
It's moot for the bit the OP is using - as 9tails says the mouthpiece itself is not legal because of the port.

Is the CS bit not jointed?

Re your pelham, what if you take the curb strap completely off? That would be a more accurate test. Just the weight of the rein will provide some leverage and engage the curb, even if you just have it knotted on the neck, let alone if you're holding it with the snaffle at all - it is almost impossible to not use the curb at all. In addition, pelhams are always a bit "muddy" in their action, which is why dressage double bridles are separate bits.

When you say "hates" what do you mean?

One of the recognised problems with mullen mouths is that they can make a horse very "fixed" and leaning. This can be a great short term fix for a horse that's really not taking the bit but they are often most useful as short term measures. Not to say that some horses don't always go well in them - a mullen mouth and drop can be a great combo - but it's quite common for horses to get a bit rude in them. Rubber mouthpieces (vs vulcanite, nathe, plastic, and metal) are also too thick for almost any horse to wear comfortably. I suspect this can be less apparent in the pelham version (although what many people call rubber pelhams are actually vulcanite) because they tend not to be used with a flash/drop so the mouth does open a little, and because the more severe action means the horse doesn't "yaw" at the bit and run through it. Also, pelhams leave a bit to be desired for lateral suppleness, which is also a problem for some horses in a mullen mouth, so perhaps it's harder for the rider to pick out which part of the bit is having which effect.
Click to expand...

Sorry OP complete hijack :o

Yep CS bit has a losenge I have one, another that the pony didnt like :rolleyes:

In the pellham he is soft imediatly, seeks a contact, is more forward (:confused:), I can collect him up then get him to stretch down and his neck and jaw stay completly soft the entire time, I feel that I can really place his head where ever I want it and he bends his entire body really easily making his lateral work much easier. Its a metal one not rubber, not overly thick (thinner than a vulcanite) but not thin either and he is the same with the second set of reins removed.

Hanging cheek was a slightly thinner mouth piece but he just set his entire front end in it, wouldnt bend, was backwards and steering was some what limited and he wouldnt accept a contact.

His next favourite changes between a loose ring french link and an eggbutt with a losenge which are the crurrent choices for dressage but he can still be reluctant to let go with the neck and doesnt like to relax his jaw and again not always keen on a contact. Have also found out he likes his cavesson very loose but makes no diffrence taking it off.

I had thought about trying a full cheek mullen (possibly nathe or happy mouth) and a drop for dressage as we can play jump the boards on grass but not sure he would like the drop so looking out for a cheap one on ebay to try.
 
Oh what a very interesting thread this had turned out to be! Tarrsteps you are a mind of knowledge when it comes to bitting thank you for all your advice.
I may try the mb02 as i did try the mullen mouth, and as stated she did become quite 'fixed' in the neck and contact. It is odd that the mb04 is not allowed as there is not a big port at all.
She was very good in it yesterday and will try again in it today, may have to sell a few that we do not use to raise funds for a new one. So if anyone is interested in a stack of bits let me know lol
 
I don't get the no port business as surely it only serves to make the horse more comfortable but hey
ho.

The joke with me re bitting is that while I have a good selection I am very traditional in my choices and generally don't chop and change much. For horses doing extreme jobs I think you do need that precision and every horse needs a bit that you can use to communicate effectively with. But over all, I have simple tastes.
 
dh is yours the same in the pelham with the curb chain removed? (I know it's a sin to do that. :D)

I can see your point and know quite a few American-style working hunters that go in pelhams every day, but I've had a few to 'fix' that have been schooled regularly in pelhams for dressage and it can have some serious ramifications.

I'm not saying that's applicable in your case, dh - it doesn't sound like that at all - more to the idea that crops up from time to time that using a leverage bit a quick route to getting a horse working correctly and it's without cost to the horse.
 
I cant remember if I removed the chain or not now, I tried lots of things to see what it was about the pellham he liked. I have definatly had it very very loose and he was the same but I'll remove it tonight and see where we stand. I wasnt sure if it was just the weight of it that made him happier?

I think re the quick fix that he might have spent a fair bit of time in one when he was broken as he was broken in show pony style with draw reins very early on so I'm not sure if its what he has always known and is comfortable with. I dont ride him in it very often as I dont want to rely on something not dressage legal. I dont want to quick fix him I just want some thing that he is as happy in thats dressage legal as he is a pleasure to ride in it.

The silly thing is he is never strong in the snaffle for any thing, we can go for a gallop with friends and all I have to do is sit up a bit and he comes right back to me even if the others carry on.
 
Tarrsteps - tried pellham without curb chain, pony happy still, not quite as happy as with but still much happier than with snaffle and again no curb rein. Was forwards again, kept up with 17hh hacking companion for an idea of how forward he is in it.

Any thoughts?
 
How about a happy mouth? I used to use a straight bar snaffle on my old boy when he was a youngster. Might be a silly question but have you have her checked by a dentist? :)
 
I can highly recommend the Dr Cooke. If I had to try a bit I would prob go for The myler combination as it has some of through same action as the Dr cook.

Some sites say u can clip a snaffle on to a Dr Cooke (or head piece with bit) with 2 sets of reins for dressage so like a double bridle but using the Dr Cooke part! to get round the legalities but I don't do dressage so don't know?

The best bit she went in was a French link fulmer snaffle of that's any use?
 
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