Futurity - A Question

[jeanette10]

I went on this morning to look through the results of the Futurity and one thing struck me.

With several horses getting marks of 9 or above (some must have received scores of 10 in some areas), I wondered what these "ideal horses" looked like. As obviously to be awarded 10 out of 10 must mean its the perfect specimen.

So what struck me was that abroad, it is highly unlikey for an animal to get a score of 9 or 10. Horses that achieve these wonder scores are more exceptional than normal, especially to get a perfect 10.

So, I started to ponder.

If in the UK we are breeding 3 year old horses and under with scores of 9 or 10, then how come we are still lagging behind the rest of Europe in the World Rankings? Surely if the judges are looking at the absolute perfect young horse then these exceptional horses will rein supreme amongst their peers?

I was going to try and load pictures of the horses that have got scores of well over 9, to show people just what the perfect young horse should look like, but I am not technically minded to do this (perhaps someone else will).

My last question is - are the judges actually scoring horses at the Futurity realistically in line with the rest of Europe?

 

[Touchwood]

Firstly...looking at photographs of highly scoring animals is not a very helpful exercise, we all know how easy it is for a horse to look bad in a photograph and unfortunately the standard of photography at some venues has been found to be very bad.

Secondly....we are not falling behind Europe in the quality of the youngstock we produce IMO, it is the production of these young horses to adulthood which is the problem. So that is your answer.

 

[chris_j]

Firstly...looking at photographs of highly scoring animals is not a very helpful exercise, we all know how easy it is for a horse to look bad in a photograph and unfortunately the standard of photography at some venues has been found to be very bad.

Secondly....we are not falling behind Europe in the quality of the youngstock we produce IMO, it is the production of these young horses to adulthood which is the problem. So that is your answer.

Totally agree with Touchwood on this. I went on the Hanoverian Breeders course in Germany & we visited a lot of mare shows. The majority of horses there were average to nice, just as you would see in the UK. It's a fallacy that Germany & Holland are jammed full of superstars, but when a fab foal hits the ground, it is likely to be sold for good money through the studbook auctions to people who have the cash to put the horse on a path to success with professional young horse raisers, then on to young horse riders & the competition circuit.

 

[Partoow]

firstly a 10 is not perfect its exellent.
secondly a horse may get ;A 10, ie an area of that horse be truely exellent.there are no horses that get 10 all the way through.those horses that get elite truely deserve that mark and would be super horses anywhere.
The idea of the Futurity is not as a stud book but as a guide to form and function.
It gives breeders a chance to see how the conformation of a horse relates to the biomechanics of a horse and its ability to do a specific job.
topline and symetry of movement being vital aspects for all equine athletes, whether they go on to compete at the Olympics or the unaffiliated champs at the local venue.
we all want fit sound horses.
The sport horse industry in the UK does not get the government backing that is seen in our european neighbours, the BEF, by running this series is doing its best to help guide breeders.
on the continent they send a lot of substandard horses to the meat market, this gives an economic return for for horse flesh so only those that have value as riding horses are kept.
it also means we see only horses that have undergone a selection process , they also breed via a numbers game because the economics add up, there is a market for the good and the bad.
The standard of horses coming forward to the Futurity's has improved greatly and we have seen some truely exellent horses.
Having ridden a horse at last years mare test that both i and the German judges awarded a 10 to i can , hand on heart say i know what exellent is.
It would have been a 10 in any land and as has been said the production and the quality of training and competition is probably more significant as to why we dont 'rank'.
I am quite dispirited with the critisism that the Futurity gets by the rather vocal 'minority'
There are a lot of people trying for no other reason or gain to improve the information out there .All the assesors have a strong area but they all have a full rounded knowledge of the job in hand, so whether there is a dressage or jumping specialist at what particular show is not really relevant as they all have a wide span of knowledge none of the assesors believe they have all the knowledge ,as its an evolving process, but they have a pretty good idea of the question of what mark a horse requires for its disapline.

 

[jeanette10]

Even minorities should be allowed a voice I think, otherwise how do you manage to educate everyone if you dont listen to everyone.

It gives breeders a chance to see how the conformation of a horse relates to the biomechanics of a horse and its ability to do a specific job.
topline and symetry of movement being vital aspects for all equine athletes, whether they go on to compete at the Olympics or the unaffiliated champs at the local venue.
we all want fit sound horses.

You are saying that the Futurity is only to be used as a tool then to assess horses, yet the purpose of your Premiums as defined on the BEF website would differ.

Taken From the BEF Website -

Elite - A horse or pony that has an average of excellent or very good scores across the criteria to be assessed which means that it has the potential and the outlook to perform well at international level, if veterinary guidance is followed and the horse or pony is appropriately cared-for, produced and ridden.

According to the Futurity it is looking at future International athletes, not those that will go on to compete in unaffiliated competition, that is how they are scoring these young horses, on there potential to be an International athlete.

All the assesors have a strong area but they all have a full rounded knowledge of the job in hand, so whether there is a dressage or jumping specialist at what particular show is not really relevant as they all have a wide span of knowledge none of the assesors believe they have all the knowledge ,as its an evolving process, but they have a pretty good idea of the question of what mark a horse requires for its disapline.

Sorry but I would disagree. Even after several years of people asking, not once has the BEF given people this information, i.e. what knowledge or qualities the evaluators have. They are fobbed off by being told that they have no right to question because the evaluators are knowledgable. But ask yourself, how many people attending these events have any knowledge of the person standing in front of them, who is giving their horse a critique regarding whether it is good enough to be International level or not?

Also I am not knocking the Futurity at all in its concept, I think it is something that has developed and grown over the years. What I am saying in my original post is that if you go to any young horse grading in Europe, that for a foal to get marks of 9 or 10 is not the norm. The KWPN see a horse scoring 8 as very good and several of these have gone on to be International athletes, however the Futurity scoring a horse of 8 would only see it as a National Horse! It makes no difference whether it is a Studbook or the Futurity giving out the marks, as the scores are used by people to market their horses.

 

[cruiseline]

Totally agree with Touchwood on this. I went on the Hanoverian Breeders course in Germany & we visited a lot of mare shows. The majority of horses there were average to nice, just as you would see in the UK. It's a fallacy that Germany & Holland are jammed full of superstars, but when a fab foal hits the ground, it is likely to be sold for good money through the studbook auctions to people who have the cash to put the horse on a path to success with professional young horse raisers, then on to young horse riders & the competition circuit.

Again, I would agree with both Touchwood (the photos were on the whole terrible) and chris_j.

What the UK lacks is experienced, knowledgeable people to produce the youngsters that are being bred, it is nothing to do with the lack of quality in UK bred sports horses.

Even the big boys send their youngsters to Europe to be produced in those crucial early days.

What is needed IMHO is not to kick the BEF futurity evaluators, but kick the powers that be regarding the education, or lack there of, for the riders we are producing in the UK. That is where the whole system is going wrong. As I have said before and will say again, a horse is ONLY as good as the hands at the end of the reins.

 

[competitiondiva]

Firstly...looking at photographs of highly scoring animals is not a very helpful exercise, we all know how easy it is for a horse to look bad in a photograph and unfortunately the standard of photography at some venues has been found to be very bad.

Secondly....we are not falling behind Europe in the quality of the youngstock we produce IMO, it is the production of these young horses to adulthood which is the problem. So that is your answer.

Agree with this see this for an example:
http://www.horsebreedersmagazine.com/#/latest-news/4535210792

Click on British bred Boston flying high